your thoughts on the DH

[predatorkj]

So a lot of you guys are for it because it allows players who really aren't good enough to be playing baseball as a complete player to stick around.In my mind that is a horrible reason.When you no longer are able to play up to the expectations of a MLB player then it is time to retire.

And who's to say what those expectations are? Honestly, if the AL says it's okay, I'm fine with it. The guy that I collect would not be able to play the field consistently due to an arthritic condition in his elbow, so needless to say I'm glad the option exists for him and for others who can still contribute to the game on an offensive basis.

Uh...well I know if I am giving a dude a major league contract to play baseball...I want him to do exactly that.Not just be a good hitter.An argument can be made about it drawing more fans to see somebody like David Ortiz or seeing Thomas or Piazza or any of the guys who did or still do DH but they are no longer complete players.Expectations would be that you can play defense as well as hit.As it stands right now the AL has a bunch of half players.

And if Pronk has a problem...he is not special.Bagwell had problems with his shoulder.But when he was done he was done.He was nobody special either.You ought to remember just because we like seeing these guys play or we collect them has little relevance to whether or not they are totally useful on the field.

 

[predatorkj]

So a lot of you guys are for it because it allows players who really aren't good enough to be playing baseball as a complete player to stick around.In my mind that is a horrible reason.When you no longer are able to play up to the expectations of a MLB player then it is time to retire.

And who's to say what those expectations are? Honestly, if the AL says it's okay, I'm fine with it. The guy that I collect would not be able to play the field consistently due to an arthritic condition in his elbow, so needless to say I'm glad the option exists for him and for others who can still contribute to the game on an offensive basis.

Another aspect is a lot of baseball fans don't care if those expectations are met. If I watch baseball I want to see the best players playing. Why in the world would I want to see Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, or Derek Lowe hit instead of David Ortiz a few years ago? I don't care that he can't play defense, he was someone that made people stop and watch those 4-5 at bats a game. If the pitchers were hitting it would've been a good time to hit the bathroom or go to the concession stand.

Well I don't get all excited about watching somebody bat who can't even field.Its like watching a boxer try to fight coherently in a Muay Thai match.He will get his ass kicked.You have to be a complete athlete at whatever sport you play.It doesn't cut it in football when somebody only wants to run the ball and not block or in basketball when somebody only wants to shoot the ball but then not go downcourt and defend.

 

[aw00d05]

Either put DH in both leagues or make pitchers hit in both, personally I like seeing pitchers hit so I say make both go without.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

So a lot of you guys are for it because it allows players who really aren't good enough to be playing baseball as a complete player to stick around.In my mind that is a horrible reason.When you no longer are able to play up to the expectations of a MLB player then it is time to retire.

And who's to say what those expectations are? Honestly, if the AL says it's okay, I'm fine with it. The guy that I collect would not be able to play the field consistently due to an arthritic condition in his elbow, so needless to say I'm glad the option exists for him and for others who can still contribute to the game on an offensive basis.

Another aspect is a lot of baseball fans don't care if those expectations are met. If I watch baseball I want to see the best players playing. Why in the world would I want to see Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, or Derek Lowe hit instead of David Ortiz a few years ago? I don't care that he can't play defense, he was someone that made people stop and watch those 4-5 at bats a game. If the pitchers were hitting it would've been a good time to hit the bathroom or go to the concession stand.

Well I don't get all excited about watching somebody bat who can't even field.Its like watching a boxer try to fight coherently in a Muay Thai match.He will get his ass kicked.You have to be a complete athlete at whatever sport you play.It doesn't cut it in football when somebody only wants to run the ball and not block or in basketball when somebody only wants to shoot the ball but then not go downcourt and defend.

I'm usually with you on your posts but this one makes no sense to me. So while you're watching a guy like Ortiz hit 40-50 HR, hit around .300, and come up with clutch hit after clutch hit all you think about is his ability to play defense? What about when the pitchers are pitching? Do you not get excited about that because they can't hit?

 

[17ROCKIES12]

I don't think that it can be taken away at this point, but I wish it never became a part of the game.

 

[predatorkj]

So a lot of you guys are for it because it allows players who really aren't good enough to be playing baseball as a complete player to stick around.In my mind that is a horrible reason.When you no longer are able to play up to the expectations of a MLB player then it is time to retire.

And who's to say what those expectations are? Honestly, if the AL says it's okay, I'm fine with it. The guy that I collect would not be able to play the field consistently due to an arthritic condition in his elbow, so needless to say I'm glad the option exists for him and for others who can still contribute to the game on an offensive basis.

Another aspect is a lot of baseball fans don't care if those expectations are met. If I watch baseball I want to see the best players playing. Why in the world would I want to see Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, or Derek Lowe hit instead of David Ortiz a few years ago? I don't care that he can't play defense, he was someone that made people stop and watch those 4-5 at bats a game. If the pitchers were hitting it would've been a good time to hit the bathroom or go to the concession stand.

Well I don't get all excited about watching somebody bat who can't even field.Its like watching a boxer try to fight coherently in a Muay Thai match.He will get his ass kicked.You have to be a complete athlete at whatever sport you play.It doesn't cut it in football when somebody only wants to run the ball and not block or in basketball when somebody only wants to shoot the ball but then not go downcourt and defend.

I'm usually with you on your posts but this one makes no sense to me. So while you're watching a guy like Ortiz hit 40-50 HR, hit around .300, and come up with clutch hit after clutch hit all you think about is his ability to play defense? What about when the pitchers are pitching? Do you not get excited about that because they can't hit?

While I still think its dumb...its common knowledge most pitchers are not good hitters because they don't practice.So in my mind watching a pitcher hit is like a coin toss.It may or may not go well.But at least they are hitting.Ortiz doesn't play very many games on the field.


Hey...lets just put it this way...I think its an unfair advantage to have one guy who doesn't have to go through the same rigors of a full season and all he has to do is focus on batting practice.I don't like it when only one thing of a complex and graceful game is focused on.

 

[OhioBobcat3]

So a lot of you guys are for it because it allows players who really aren't good enough to be playing baseball as a complete player to stick around.In my mind that is a horrible reason.When you no longer are able to play up to the expectations of a MLB player then it is time to retire.

And who's to say what those expectations are? Honestly, if the AL says it's okay, I'm fine with it. The guy that I collect would not be able to play the field consistently due to an arthritic condition in his elbow, so needless to say I'm glad the option exists for him and for others who can still contribute to the game on an offensive basis.

Uh...well I know if I am giving a dude a major league contract to play baseball...I want him to do exactly that.Not just be a good hitter.An argument can be made about it drawing more fans to see somebody like David Ortiz or seeing Thomas or Piazza or any of the guys who did or still do DH but they are no longer complete players.Expectations would be that you can play defense as well as hit.As it stands right now the AL has a bunch of half players.

And if Pronk has a problem...he is not special.Bagwell had problems with his shoulder.But when he was done he was done.He was nobody special either. You ought to remember just because we like seeing these guys play or we collect them has little relevance to whether or not they are totally useful on the field.

When Hafner was given a sizeable contract two years ago it was common knowledge that he had arthritis, and he had pretty much established himself as a full-time DH at that point. The thing is, he was hugely productive with it from 2004-2006, and to a slightly smaller extent in 2007. The Indians had no problem rewarding this production with said contract. So, even though he was not useful in the field consistently he was undeniably useful ("special") to the Cleveland Indians from an offensive standpoint. Again, it is your expectation that everyone on the roster should play defense. I respect that, and understand exactly where you are coming from, but teams in the AL don't hold that expectation for all players and that's because they can benefit from players who can still mash despite horrific defense or medical maladies.

He has had problems this year and last with a shoulder ailment. He's continuing to recover from surgery and its after effects, but I still believe he can be a very productive player from an offensive standpoint (albeit, not like he was in 2006). That's would make him special to me, whether he's in the field or not, whether I collected anything of his or not.

BTW, I hate threads on this issue. In all honesty, I actually cringed when I saw this was here. Nobody is truly right or wrong when it comes to their view of the DH because it's all just opinion. The only thing it seems to do is just stir things up.

 

[predatorkj]

When Hafner was given a sizeable contract two years ago it was common knowledge that he had arthritis, and he had pretty much established himself as a full-time DH at that point. The thing is, he was hugely productive with it from 2004-2006, and to a slightly smaller extent in 2007. The Indians had no problem rewarding this production with said contract. So, even though he was not useful in the field consistently he was undeniably useful ("special") to the Cleveland Indians from an offensive standpoint. Again, it is your expectation that everyone on the roster should play defense. I respect that, and understand exactly where you are coming from, but teams in the AL don't hold that expectation for all players and that's because they can benefit from players who can still mash despite horrific defense or medical maladies.

He has had problems this year and last with a shoulder ailment. He's continuing to recover from surgery and its after effects, but I still believe he can be a very productive player from an offensive standpoint (albeit, not like he was in 2006). That's would make him special to me, whether he's in the field or not, whether I collected anything of his or not.

BTW, I hate threads on this issue. In all honesty, I actually cringed when I saw this was here. Nobody is truly right or wrong when it comes to their view of the DH because it's all just opinion. The only thing it seems to do is just stir things up.

Well don't feel like I am capping too much on Pronk.I collect him as well.I can't open a box and not pull one of his autos.He haunted the crap out of me on like 4 or 5 different boxes.Its weird.Anyway...the point being that Bagwell had to basically end his career because he couldn't throw anymore.At least not adequately from what I have heard and read.A lot of fans were upset and I was in the minority because I felt...hey if they guy is done then he is done.I wouldn't have wanted to see him hang on by just his hitting ability alone.Plus you have to factor in Biggio and him staying around too long to my angst too.I am not a fan of people staying around too long.If they are effective then they are not staying around too long though.

I think the DH allows people who might well not be around without it, to keep playing.And to me...that seems kind of odd.Now of course I can't argue that it doesn't make sense for the AL to use that to its advantage but like I said...you field a 25 man roster and make sure they all can play some position yet the other league doesn't have to.I will say that I can agree either both leagues do it or none of them do.It just seems like an unfair advantage.All somebody has to do is work on their hitting.That's not a ball player.

One other thing to keep in mind...if a DH is slumping very badly(as in the case of David Ortiz) does anyone realize that that player is completely useless to the team?Not just at bat but all the way around?Sure some DH players can play the defense well enough to still be of value but if they are not all that good and then they slump...they are about as useful as **** on a bull.Whereas a player from the NL is still playing good defense.Like Berkman for example.Who the hell knows whats up with him but you won't notice it at first base where he constantly is making insane snags and able to basically stretch to the limit to snag the bad throws.If it weren't for him Tejada would have so many errors.


I agree I don't think there is any wrong answer here but I just don't buy the whole argument that it should be allowed to keep players who should call it quits, around and playing.

 

[nborton]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

 

[predatorkj]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

 

[abncollectsautos]

i dont know if there is a right or wrong answer, only opinions. i have my likes and dis-likes about the DH. i dont think it will ever go away, nor do i think it will ever go to both leagues.

i do know, if i was a gm in the AL and i was able to add another hitter to my lineup and not worry about the pitcher hitting, id go get a hafner, big hurt, papi, edgar martinez, or some other big time professional hitter.

if i was a GM in the NL and had to hit my pitchers, i urge them to take a little more bp and i would definately pay more attention to that before signing them. wouldnt be a deal breaker if he couldnt hit, but its definately a plus if he can.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

I'd rather watch the managers bat than changing the DH so it's in both leagues.

Personally, I'll take the added strategy and decisions that go with NL rules. For example, are your chances of winning better with the pitcher pitching the next inning or putting in a pinch batter to try to drive in the runs, etc.

 

[nborton]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

Yeah, that's your role for sure. I just know it has to be frustrating for the 8th hitter to see nothing all year.

 

[Therion]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

Yeah, that's your role for sure. I just know it has to be frustrating for the 8th hitter to see nothing all year.

Let's be honest. How often is the 8th batter that big of an offensive role anyways?

 

[nborton]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

Yeah, that's your role for sure. I just know it has to be frustrating for the 8th hitter to see nothing all year.

Let's be honest. How often is the 8th batter that big of an offensive role anyways?

Oh, that's definitely true. A good portion of it is hitting 8th though. I guarantee you take the same guy and hit him 2nd he would see an increase in his BA. But like you say, they are hitting 8th for a reason.

 

[Therion]

I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

Yeah, that's your role for sure. I just know it has to be frustrating for the 8th hitter to see nothing all year.

Let's be honest. How often is the 8th batter that big of an offensive role anyways?

Oh, that's definitely true. A good portion of it is hitting 8th though. I guarantee you take the same guy and hit him 2nd he would see an increase in his BA. But like you say, they are hitting 8th for a reason.

I agree that there would be an increase but going from .218 to .226 isn't going to be a big help to the team. Even with the DH this is true though. How many high BA 8th slot hitters are there in the AL?

As I said before, I think the DH is a bastardization of baseball but I get the side that likes the DH too. I personally get more enjoyment out of watching the pitcher bat than the average 9th slot AL hitter.

 

[predatorkj]

[quote="nborton":3u6r3a9a]I like the intrigue of the NL toward the ends of games as far as pinch hitting. However, there are disadvantages to having a DH too. Generally in the AL it's a big power hitting player who is taking a large chunk of the team salary. In the NL this money could be spent more wisely on other players or pitchers.

I'm on the fence I guess. I like the intrigue of the NL, but I also hate seeing rallies killed by the pitcher. I would hate to hit 8th in NL. It's a hitter's death. :lol: You see absolutely nothing to hit.

So you draw a walk, create some havoc on the basepaths, and try to screw with the pitcher's focus.Then he either walks the pitcher or makes a mistake and then you have kept the rally going.Yes its not going to work every time but you have to try at least.

Yeah, that's your role for sure. I just know it has to be frustrating for the 8th hitter to see nothing all year.

Let's be honest. How often is the 8th batter that big of an offensive role anyways?

Oh, that's definitely true. A good portion of it is hitting 8th though. I guarantee you take the same guy and hit him 2nd he would see an increase in his BA. But like you say, they are hitting 8th for a reason.

I agree that there would be an increase but going from .218 to .226 isn't going to be a big help to the team. Even with the DH this is true though. How many high BA 8th slot hitters are there in the AL?

As I said before, I think the DH is a bastardization of baseball but I get the side that likes the DH too. I personally get more enjoyment out of watching the pitcher bat than the average 9th slot AL hitter.[/quote:3u6r3a9a]


To go on that choice of words...I enjoy watching a DH.I really do but it seems like its kind of a weird advantage...even in the AL matchups(non-interleague).You have your regular guys and then..."the dh".The for sure hit.The guy capable of smashing a homer.Its like when we were at recess in 3rd grade and the 5th graders would watch us play kickball and then there was always those two 5th graders that would play for both teams.Sure it was cool as hell to watch them kick the crap out of the ball but you knew for sure they were going to do damage.It wasn't a matter of that.It was just a matter of how much.They were not held to the same gravity we were because we were third graders and they were the big behemoth 5th graders and so much stronger than us.I know its a reach but its the same way with the DH.You have your position players and then the DH.The guy who does nothing but work on becoming a fine tuned hitting machine.More so than the other players on the diamond.

So for me...while the excitement is there I would be happier watching a guy who may or may not be good at the plate.Not watching some guy get a hit because that's all he is good at.

 

[MacK]

Get rid of it, please

Don't see why the AL should have it, and the NL should not

Some players in the AL make a living off just hitting, and not playing in the field. You sit the bench the entire game, less 4 times up at the plate.

Some players are even dealt to the AL just so they can be serviceable. It's a joke.

 

[predatorkj]

Some players are even dealt to the AL just so they can be serviceable. It's a joke.

That's one of my biggest beefs."Oh...you have to play in the AL since you are no longer good enough to hack it in the field".Yeah...okay.Seems like a waste of money to me.