Online retailer NOT honoring BCDP Jumbo case purchases

[padremurph]

Here's my stupid input. Topps should keep draft as hobby only. It was working well and didn't cause any problems like this.

 

[All In Cards]

The thing is Topps solicited this 2 ways. They 1st did hobby and then jumbo.

1st time they did this with the same product. Why would they not do all the numbers at once?

It made distributors/online giants/hobby shops order hobby to be able to get jumbos. Most hobby stores will not have jumbo unless they ordered the 5 to 6 cases of hobby.

 

[bja613]

I have a question... On other products that feature hobby/jumbo (Topps S1, S2, update, Bowman), do distributors usually allocate on those releases? I figured that they did and that's why the big breakers always ordered through a retailer to get all jumbos. I am a mid-sized breaker that always goes through Atlanta.

 

[All In Cards]

I have a question... On other products that feature hobby/jumbo (Topps S1, S2, update, Bowman), do distributors usually allocate on those releases? I figured that they did and that's why the big breakers always ordered through a retailer to get all jumbos. I am a mid-sized breaker that always goes through Atlanta.

Yes, when I order from GTS, Magazine, etc, there has always been an allocation. It was 2 to 1 on products before Draft.

so 2 hobby cases got me 1 jumbo case.

 

[BowmanChromeAddict]

I've been ordering from Josh for the last two to three years now and I've never been forced to buy hobby to get jumbo. This is the first time. Heck for Bowman 2012 I had committed to 10 hobby on top of the 20 jumbo I ordered and at the last second he switched my hobby up to Jumbo because he had oversold hobby. (Forever grateful for that one!)

I just don't get what is so different about Draft, but I have a call with Josh for later today to get a better understanding.

 

[All In Cards]

difference is Topps is saying you buy 6 hobby you can get 1 jumbo. Before it was 2 hobby for 1 jumbo.

"THANKS TOPPS"

 

[Jaypers]

It's also the first time in which you can't find Draft in retail stores.....unless Topps decides to bring back Value Boxes and insert hobby packs into them.

 

[ballerskrip]

Here's my stupid input. Topps should keep draft as hobby only. It was working well and didn't cause any problems like this.

Actually, I am 100% with you. Why ruin a GREAT PRODUCT. I think it is ridiculous for them to make Jumbo. What was the need? I have been saying this same thing since the day the information was released.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Actually, I am 100% with you. Why ruin a GREAT PRODUCT. I think it is ridiculous for them to make Jumbo. What was the need? I have been saying this same thing since the day the information was released.

This is a good question. Given that its been taken off retail shelves I wonder how profitable Draft has been for Topps in comparison to other products.

 

[brentandbecca]

so much to say on this topic that may or may not have been missed

1) Josh is a standup guy and he is losing out just like we all are. He won't be able to make the money either. I ordered 60 jumbo cases and I am not upset because Josh told me along with everyone else in email or phone call form that he did not know the allocations and he may not be able to fulfill all the orders since this was anew way of Topps doing this and he had no idea until he heard from Topps.
2) VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW: Topps made the distributors put in their hobby numbers FIRST...NOT LETTING THE DISTRIBUTORS KNOW the allocations first. So if Josh puts in for 150 hobby (less desirable cases, which he had almost 0 pre-orders on, so why would he order lots of hobby?). Then Topps comes back and say ok, you are getting 30 jumbo cases only as it is 6:1. So, how can he fill them? He is not able to go back now and order more hobby to get more jumbo...does not work that way.
3) Nothing against BO at all, but they are larger and ask yourself why they are standing by their orders? They did not have near the pre-orders that Josh did because their prices were $200-$300 a case higher from the get-go, plus they do have more wiggle room to buy cases elsewhere if they can find them (that is how they get most of their cases, unless Topps makes much more and offers a closeout or direct deal to BO).
4) Funny thing, is before jumbos were announced hardly anyone was too excited as the class was weaker and the product continues to underperform simply due to the structure of repeat players or the fact the guys with autos also have base cards making those even in 20ct lots worth much less than past years.
5) This is a first for Josh. Some have aid Topps normally do 2:1 on jumbo cases for Bowman and Topps; however, that has never been the case for the larger distributors liek Josh. That is why I ahve been able to order 60 jumbo cases and no hobby of those products. Josh does not make anyone buy hobby to get jumbo. Topps has always allowed them to order hobby & jumbo at the same time and at any ratio. This was the exception, and Josh expected 2:1 or 3:1 at worst.

Anyhow, it does stink,,,,but it is just cards, and just one release. There is always more than we know, but thought I would share some things.

PS) I am not saying this is good, but I do applaud Josh for not raising the prices on the cases early on. He sold them far cheaper as he did not want to rip people off way above cost from the beginning. That should be remembered. Even though he expected some allocation he did not kill everyone on the prices, plus would we all have bought it at $200-$300 more per case as a pre-sell? Probably not or we could have elsewhere. Plus, Josh took Jumbo cases off his website the day after the info came out to play it safe. The orders he rec'd were via direct contact with him saying he would try to get all they ordered but would know once allocations were out. Just a thought.

 

[mredsox89]

This sucks for anyone who pre-ordered it. I kept waiting to see it available for pre-order and never did, so as of now I've got nothing, and likely won't decide until the product goes live. This just seems like it's going to turn into a disaster, it already is, for Topps and could turn even more people off to the company. But the issue from the collector's standpoint is that there still isn't really an alternative, so Topps can continue to do whatever they want with little to no recourse

 

[brentandbecca]

You may not be happy with Topps, but doesn't Panani and UD also play games with their distribution systems and high map prices
Topps at least has been ADDING content to their products and the stuff is going up on all their sealed wax this year for most part

Not to mention, Topps didn't have to make Jumbos anyhow. They were trying to spice it up and make it better with more content and demand for a weaker draft class. So we complain about them making something better. Many weren't ordering it as it stood before Jumbos announced, so...

 

[ballerskrip]

You may not be happy with Topps, but doesn't Panani and UD also play games with their distribution systems and high map prices
Topps at least has been ADDING content to their products and the stuff is going up on all their sealed wax this year for most part

Not to mention, Topps didn't have to make Jumbos anyhow. They were trying to spice it up and make it better with more content and demand for a weaker draft class. So we complain about them making something better. Many weren't ordering it as it stood before Jumbos announced, so...

So, since you are a quantity ripper, and a good customer of Josh. How many jumbo cases are you getting allocated?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Interestingly, no one but Leatherman has touched on the legal issue, and he was misinformed in his conclusion.

BO & ATL and the other major sellers have formed a contract with the buyer. There was an offer (i.e. "I will sell you a case of Bowman Draft 2012 jumbo product at $XXXX) and there was acceptance (i.e. "I will accept that offer, and I will pay you XXXX now and XXXX later (or XXXX later and nothing now).

There was no misunderstanding; there was a clear meeting of the minds. This is contract law 101. The only way to have this contract nullified is if there was a mistake (there wasn't), one of the parties was a minor (and as such, it is a voidable but not void contract), or it is an impossibility to fulfill the contract (i.e. Topps does not produce 2012 Bowman Draft, or any Bowman Draft Jumbos).

While the retailers may not receive as much product as they may want, there are other avenues for them to fulfill the Jumbo orders -- dealernet, other vendors, etc).

Depending on how much individual buyers want to hold their feet to the fire (and possibly cost themselves future purchasing opportunities), the retailers ARE OBLIGATED FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT to follow through at the agreed upon price.

This would make an interesting class action suit. This is truly a very simple concept -- and if the street value of Jumbo cases goes from, say, $1500 (contract price) to $2500 on release date, the retailers who don't come through owe their customers, at a minimum, $1,000 each.

---

There is a lot to consider -- the human factor, the ability to keep these retailers in business, the fairness factor -- and I am in no way stating that each buyer should try to hold the retailer's feet to the fire -- you want these companies to stay in business for competition and the good of the hobby -- but it doesn't mean the individual buyer should be screwed either.

SHould be interesting to see how this plays out. A similar situation happened many many years ago with 2001 Bowman Chrome, I believe -- Sportscard Warehouse - on the Beckett Board. I had a long talk with the owner at that time as to how to handle pre-sells. Then, despite that advice, SWC just went downhill from there....

 

[brentandbecca]

0. I will not be getting or ripping any at this point. I was passing on draft this year until I heard about Jumbos, but Josh told me he may not be able to get me everything I wanted for the first time, and I said that is fine but would take up to 60.
I don't have desire for the reg hobby as I am not sold on those personally, although it may be worth it to take 6 of them for a jumbo, but it's not for me. I may change my mind, but told Josh at the most I would take 18 & 3, but doubtful at this point in time.

 

[brentandbecca]

Interestingly, no one but Leatherman has touched on the legal issue, and he was misinformed in his conclusion.

BO & ATL and the other major sellers have formed a contract with the buyer. There was an offer (i.e. "I will sell you a case of Bowman Draft 2012 jumbo product at $XXXX) and there was acceptance (i.e. "I will accept that offer, and I will pay you XXXX now and XXXX later (or XXXX later and nothing now).

There was no misunderstanding; there was a clear meeting of the minds. This is contract law 101. The only way to have this contract nullified is if there was a mistake (there wasn't), one of the parties was a minor (and as such, it is a voidable but not void contract), or it is an impossibility to fulfill the contract (i.e. Topps does not produce 2012 Bowman Draft, or any Bowman Draft Jumbos).

While the retailers may not receive as much product as they may want, there are other avenues for them to fulfill the Jumbo orders -- dealernet, other vendors, etc).

Depending on how much individual buyers want to hold their feet to the fire (and possibly cost themselves future purchasing opportunities), the retailers ARE OBLIGATED FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT to follow through at the agreed upon price.

This would make an interesting class action suit. This is truly a very simple concept -- and if the street value of Jumbo cases goes from, say, $1500 (contract price) to $2500 on release date, the retailers who don't come through owe their customers, at a minimum, $1,000 each.

---

There is a lot to consider -- the human factor, the ability to keep these retailers in business, the fairness factor -- and I am in no way stating that each buyer should try to hold the retailer's feet to the fire -- you want these companies to stay in business for competition and the good of the hobby -- but it doesn't mean the individual buyer should be screwed either.

SHould be interesting to see how this plays out. A similar situation happened many many years ago with 2001 Bowman Chrome, I believe -- Sportscard Warehouse - on the Beckett Board. I had a long talk with the owner at that time as to how to handle pre-sells. Then, despite that advice, SWC just went downhill from there....

Not sure this would ever stand unless said persons PAID for the cases. I know Josh told me (and I am a large customer of his) and most others I talked to that he could not commit to any cases until allocations come. Most folks did not even put a deposit down unless they got it thru the web site on the first day as it was the only day he had it up, and then he took it down.
But again, Topps didn't give their direct distributors the info they needed early on. Plus most of those who did come out of the wood works were doing so just to flip the sealed jumbo cases, which is their right, no doubt. But the newest customers to the long-time customers are all being treated identically the same which I feel is only fair. And I would think I would have just as big a gripe as anyone since I placed my order before anyone according to Josh as he calls me when he gets product info in and I consistently buy large qty....not saying I am entitled, but saying I have a right to be upset too, but what can we do...it's only cards. I know Josh outside of cards, and he is an honest man, and I know he is hurting because of all of this too.

He is also selling the jumbo cases at the same pre-sell prices now as he did then if you get the 6 hobby cases, so he is not jacking his very limited qty of those up.

Also it is worth noting, the web site says they reserve the right to change/cancel for any reason...blows, but BO and others say the same thing.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Paying is irrelevant. Offer and acceptance. Offer to sell; acceptance to pay for the item. A contract is not formed when the buyer pays; just like on eBay, a contract is not formed when the buyer pays. A contract is formed when they press the BIN button or win the auction.

Not sure this would ever stand unless said persons PAID for the cases. I know Josh told me (and I am a large customer of his) and most others I talked to that he could not commit to any cases until allocations come. Most folks did not even put a deposit down unless they got it thru the web site on the first day as it was the only day he had it up, and then he took it down.
But again, Topps didn't give their direct distributors the info they needed early on. Plus most of those who did come out of the wood works were doing so just to flip the sealed jumbo cases, which is their right, no doubt. But the newest customers to the long-time customers are all being treated identically the same which I feel is only fair. And I would think I would have just as big a gripe as anyone since I placed my order before anyone according to Josh as he calls me when he gets product info in and I consistently buy large qty....not saying I am entitled, but saying I have a right to be upset too, but what can we do...it's only cards. I know Josh outside of cards, and he is an honest man, and I know he is hurting because of all of this too.

He is also selling the jumbo cases at the same pre-sell prices now as he did then if you get the 6 hobby cases, so he is not jacking his very limited qty of those up.

Also it is worth noting, the web site says they reserve the right to change/cancel for any reason...blows, but BO and others say the same thing.

 

[tattooelement]

I had 30 cases on order.

Got the same info as Brent and everyone else. While its disappointing that I won't be able to get them, I'll live. I know Josh isn't happy how this turned out. I may still get 6:1 or 12:2. But with there being Jumbo now, I'm unsure.

Also, Josh did take orders, but also he said couldn't promise anything until he got his allocation.

 

[ballerskrip]

The situation stinks, but I give Josh a lot of credit for being stand up (as much as possible) about the situation. It seems he has a lot of big fans on this board, and truthfully, I am one of them. My dealings with him have been excellent each and every time.

I believe the practice of pre-selling 5-6 months is the culprit here. Personally I think it is bad business for the ENTIRE INDUSTRY to do so, especially without allocations.

 

[allstars]

That's crap! In this business if you presell you come through. Even if you take the hit...

I'll restate my original post. There's a whole lot of misinformation in this thread, and I'll present you with some facts.

Topps made it very clear to direct accounts several months ago that not everyone was going to get jumbos. Josh was well aware of this as was I. I've been a direct account for decades with lots of card companies, and I learned a long time ago that you never order product a just to get product b. the only winner in that game is the manufacturer.

So i got a fairly large allocation of bdp hobby and the writing was clearly on the wall that if I made a big order i'd get so
me jumbos. So I chose to make a small order, and not play Topps' game. A good move in retrospect.

And Guess what? I was allocated jumbos. The 6:1 ratio is not coming from Topps, that I promise you. It's coming from the deAlers and/or distributors that guys like Josh buy off in addition to Topps.

This bdp thing is new. There will be no retail version. There will be limited jumbos. This was clear to all dealers before the hobby order window closed. Shame on dealers that assumed this product was going to be handled the same way as Bowman regular.

Topps generally gives jumbos out on a 1:1 basis, not 2:1 or any other ratio. I've never been allocated jumbos in any other ratio for any other Topps product. Those talking about any other ratio that they "usually" get are pawns of thier sources, because those guys get a case of jumbos for every hobby case they order.

I dont care how great a human being Josh is. He made a bad bisiness decision by assuming jumbos would be more accessable. Imho now he's making a far worse decision by holding his customers responsible for his goof, plain and simple. The only right way for Josh to handle this, and an option he has clearly decided against to avoid taking a hit, is to man-up, go out on the market & buy jumbos to fulfill his self-imposed obligations. It's cut & dry and what any businessperson with integrity would do.

Blowout is doing the right thing by fulfilling thier contracts. They saw the writing on the wall and presd thier cases at a higher level than Josh did. They're taking thier hit like they should, but it won't hurt as much because they knew this product wouldbe different. Topps didn't make that hardto figure out. Another mistake by Josh. He either wasn't paying attention, or he just chose to ignore the information he had.

We all take our hits in this industry. Josh should take his. The people that accepted the contract he offered should not be held accountable for his bad business decision. Shame on you Josh.