Ryan Braun linked to PED Clinic

[predatorkj]

Why Won?t Braun Prove He Hired Bosch As Consultant? | Disciples of Uecker

If you actually want to understand the situation, not just make assumptions, read the above.

My question is this...if all this is true, and your legal consultation with this Bosch guy and any other info discussed privately with your attorney is to be leaked by waiving your confidentaility, and you really didn't use anything, why are they afraid? I get that it makes him vulnerable but it only does so if he really used something and was really consulting in a manner more suited to cover his ass than getting educated on PEDs in general for his hearing.

 

[predatorkj]

Less verbose way of saying it: Braun went to a guy who had extensive PED MLB experience for assistance - I'm guessing Verducci gets paid by the word.

Here's my thought about why he really went to this guy...

Basically he could have found a crapload of clean people out there. I'm not buying the "this guy was one of only a few available". Personally, even if I were going to just consult with a so called expert, and I haven't done anything wrong, and I have Braun's money, I asking some very prestigious people. I want to make damn sure I get all the best info I can. Hell, get somebody from WADA for Christ's sake. There are people out there to consult. People that would know a lot about the testing system and how it might could go wrong and what the normal procedure is and what is supposed to happen from A-Z. I'm not consulting Victor Conte or Brian McNamee or this Bosch guy either. Not unless I'm trying to ask questions about specific cycles or drugs I was using. Because to be honest, if I am doping, I'm not exactly going to be asking the clean guys about this stuff. They might refuse to consult based on morals and ethics alone. I'd be more interested in talking to the enablers. The guys helping other athletes cheat.

If I cheated, I need to talk to people who help others cheat to figure out what I'm looking at and what my options are. If I'm clean I need to speak to people involved in testing and procedures so I know the inside and out of the testing process and custody all the way to the results. It would make sense to consult with certain people based on what you did and your situation. This guy being consulted just seems odd. Am I being led to believe he is the only guy who could educate Braun and his attorney about PEDs or testosterone? It seems Braun might have used some clean folks but also this Bosch guy. Why? Doesn't make any sense. There was no need for it.

 

[jbhofmann]

Then this all boils down to weather you thing that the single failed test was an aberration or a true result. I'm certainly willing to give Braun the benefit of the doubt due to the other tests and the fact that the incriminating example was tampered with.

How many tests has Braun passed in the last year? Five?

How
many
tests
did
Lance
fail?


The tests are an afterthought. When your name shows up on a shady dude's legal pad, you also look shady.

To be fair, the Braun sample was never tampered with.

 

[sheetskout]

First off, tampered with doesn't mean the actual sample. Because the chain of custody was broken you would consider the sample "tampered with".

Second, stop comparing Ryan Braun to Lance Armstrong. Armstrong's operation was neither the size nor scale of what were talking about here.

 

[jbhofmann]

First off, tampered with doesn't mean the actual sample. Because the chain of custody was broken you would consider the sample "tampered with".

Second, stop comparing Ryan Braun to Lance Armstrong. Armstrong's operation was neither the size nor scale of what were talking about here.

tamper - Interfere with (something) to cause damage or make unauthorized alterations

Nothing was interfered with, no alterations.

Only Ryan Braun knows the size and scale of his doping operation.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

...Am I being led to believe he is the only guy who could educate Braun and his attorney about PEDs or testosterone? It seems Braun might have used some clean folks but also this Bosch guy. Why? Doesn't make any sense. There was no need for it.

I'd just ask: what experience do the clean folks/doctors have selling illegal PEDs to MLBers, and what kind of advice could they really offer compared to the dirty docs?

 

[jrinne]

This thread is full of stupid.

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[sheetskout]

tamper - Interfere with (something) to cause damage or make unauthorized alterations

Nothing was interfered with, no alterations.

Only Ryan Braun knows the size and scale of his doping operation.

Seriously Hoffman, stop just arguing. From a legal perspective there is no argument that it wasn't tampered with. That's how Braun won his appeal.

"To call into question the validity of the sample, and to replicate a positive test from a degraded sample, is to call into question the very validity of the evidence. One cannot even say “Braun failed a steroids test;” in fact, that minimal statement about the initial test is the “technicality” involved in Braun’s case. While it’s technically true to say that we learned of an alleged failed test involving Braun, it’s also true to say that the test itself was called into question during Braun’s appeal."

"“First he was accused of failing a drug test just months after winning his National League MVP Award in 2011. Well, he actually wasn’t accused. He failed t
he test. In fact his testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio in the specimen was nearly 20:1, or five times the amount needed for suspension. But the results were thrown out on appeal, because proper protocol was not followed in the days after the test.”

Does it make you feel better if I change it to the process being tampered with?

Either way, it's clear your just arguing to argue here.


Last, your final statement has no basis in reality. There are plenty of people who understand the scale of this laboratory and doping allegations in Major League Baseball. The lab and it's operation was not a secret, and known well to Major League Baseball in several instances. I'm not even sure what you're trying to point out with that statement as it had nothing to do with my claim.

 

[elmalo]

But the steroid era is over, I thought y'all knew that.

 

[jbhofmann]

sheetskout,

Did the positive test have synthetic testosterone in it?
Can synthetic testosterone grow in human urine inside of a refrigerator?

If those questions are answered truthfully and honestly, this is a non-discussion.

There is no argument from me. I actually think MLB and other leagues should relax their banned lists and allow the use of these advanced treatments. I just can't stand how he proclaims that he is innocent when he knows exactly what happened.

 

[sheetskout]

sheetskout,

Did the positive test have synthetic testosterone in it?
Can synthetic testosterone grow in human urine inside of a refrigerator?

If those questions are answered truthfully and honestly, this is a non-discussion.

There is no argument from me. I actually think MLB and other leagues should relax their banned lists and allow the use of these advanced treatments. I just can't stand how he proclaims that he is innocent when he knows exactly what happened.

Yes, the test in question had levels of synthetic testosterone in it. Was this an abberation? No one knows. But again, the four tests in proximity of that one which showed nothing and the fact that the levels of testosterone in the alleged "failed" test had five times the level of testosterone that a normal failed test would trigger.

Do people realize that urinalysis isn't a perfect science? Personally, I've beaten them more times than I can count on one hand. But that's a whole different story.

 

[D-Lite]

Yes, the test in question had levels of synthetic testosterone in it. Was this an abberation? No one knows. But again, the four tests in proximity of that one which showed nothing and the fact that the levels of testosterone in the alleged "failed" test had five times the level of testosterone that a normal failed test would trigger.

Do people realize that urinalysis isn't a perfect science? Personally, I've beaten them more times than I can count on one hand. But that's a whole different story.

The mere presence of synthetic testosterone is all you need. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to be a test based on cycling, but you can't beat the presence of synthetic material no matter what the level.

 

[notjomommasclint]

Tom Verducci:
"If you accept Braun's explanation, when he was in his darkest hour -- fighting MLB on a positive drug test -- to gather expertise he went to someone who not only is not a doctor and not licensed to practice medicine, not considered to have expertise in chain of custody issues, but who also had been connected by MLB and the DEA, and known to the players association, to the 2009 bust of Manny Ramirez; it was Bosch's father, Dr. Pedro Bosch, who wrote a prescription for a banned substance to Ramirez."

Lets not confuse what braun would have an actual hand in. It wouldn't be braun finding witnesses it would be his lawyer or agent.

You have a guy who may not have been a "dr" but he was a gifted enough presenter to close previous investors, professional athletes, and many educated people in the field to work for him. It doesn't matter what he actually knew its what he could get people to believe he knew.

 

[sheetskout]

The mere presence of synthetic testosterone is all you need. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to be a test based on cycling, but you can't beat the presence of synthetic material no matter what the level.

Do you have some sort of data or life experience that makes this true? Because I'm not so sure it is. And let's remember something else. Brauns' "failed" test wasn't the first test to be overturned. Brauns test was the first to be overturned PUBLICLY.

From what I understand there have been other successful appeals that were never released in the past.

 

[jrinne]

Braun was exonerated and that's all that matter's.

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[D-Lite]

Do you have some sort of data or life experience that makes this true? Because I'm not so sure it is. And let's remember something else. Brauns' "failed" test wasn't the first test to be overturned. Brauns test was the first to be overturned PUBLICLY.

From what I understand there have been other successful appeals that were never released in the past.

In the real world, I'm a chemist, working in the pharmaceutical industry, regularly seeing pharmacokinetic data. Life experience-wise and scientifically, there is no way that was in there "by chance". And remember, he didn't get it overturned because of the test itself, but because of the botching of the sample handling, cardinal sin #1 in the clinical setting. For pharmaceutical work, the number one thing you worry about (other than if the drug works) is the handling and QC'ing of data and results.

And one thing I'll agree on with you and anyone else crying foul about these types of news leaks is that the results and any implications should be kept completely private until the matter is 100% settled legally. The fact that any info comes out is criminal in its own right. And the media and the source of the leaks should be held accountable for that. Never will be, but it's a violation of people's rights. Think about it, would you want any of your own personal interactions/medical information blown all over the internet? It's not freedom of speech at that point, it's privacy. Whether or not A-Rod or Braun or Gonzalez or Montero or anyone is actually guilty of anything from this newest PED event is unimportant now. Just being named in the report causes irreparable damage.

 

[predatorkj]

I'd just ask: what experience do the clean folks/doctors have selling illegal PEDs to MLBers, and what kind of advice could they really offer compared to the dirty docs?

Both should know a decent amount about peds. Maybe the doctors might even know more than the drug pushers. But the drug pushers would probably know more about covering your tracks and how to get out of a jam.

 

[D-Lite]

Lets not confuse what braun would have an actual hand in. It wouldn't be braun finding witnesses it would be his lawyer or agent.

You have a guy who may not have been a "dr" but he was a gifted enough presenter to close previous investors, professional athletes, and many educated people in the field to work for him. It doesn't matter what he actually knew its what he could get people to believe he knew.

But more than that is the perception of dealing with this clinic. That should be enough to stay the hell away. Athletes have got to do a better job of policing their activities and the people that they associate with.

 

[predatorkj]

In the real world, I'm a chemist, working in the pharmaceutical industry, regularly seeing pharmacokinetic data. Life experience-wise and scientifically, there is no way that was in there "by chance". And remember, he didn't get it overturned because of the test itself, but because of the botching of the sample handling, cardinal sin #1 in the clinical setting. For pharmaceutical work, the number one thing you worry about (other than if the drug works) is the handling and QC'ing of data and results.

And one thing I'll agree on with you and anyone else crying foul about these types of news leaks is that the results and any implications should be kept completely private until the matter is 100% settled legally. The fact that any info comes out is criminal in its own right. And the media and the source of the leaks should be held accountable for that. Never will be, but it's a violation of people's rights. Think about it, would you want any of your own personal interactions/medical information blown all over the internet? It's not freedom of speech at that point, it's privacy. Whether or not A-Rod or Braun or Gonzalez or Montero or anyone is actually guilty of anything from this newest PED event is unimportant now. Just being named in the report causes irreparable damage.

I do agree with your train of thought. In fact how is some of this info not a direct violation of HIPPA? I'm not sure what types of waivers the players must sign but you'd think the Union would have the records remain confidential. But the media gets away with all kinds of crap and it's always been that way and always will be.

 

[hofvintagecollector]

Braun was exonerated and that's all that matter's.

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So was OJ