David Ortiz sets record for hits by a DH

[elmalo]

I think it will be a great day when the NL finally decides to have the DH.

 

[chompsmcgee]

Second, you presented what in support of his candidcay other than avg? Other than career walks, does he rank top 50 or so in any significant batting stat?

Pretty easy if you have a basic grasp of metrics like wRC+ (a slightly more sophisticated gauge of hitting productivity than total number of hits).

If you need context, read: wRC and wRC+ | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library. 120 is considered excellent. 100 is average. 150 is elite.

wRC+ is also park and league-adjusted, allowing one to to compare players who played in different years, parks, and leagues. Want to know how Ted Williams compares with Albert Pujols in terms of offensive abilities? This is your statistic.



FWIW, Ortiz has had 5 such seasons (and a couple real close), Vlad had 4 (and a few close), Sheffield had 6. Edgar had 8.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

That fact requires some context, since you're punishing him for the Mariners love for Jim Presley and injuries.

Edgar didn't get a shot at a full season until he was 27. By 29 he was an All-Star. Then missed most of age 30 and 31 seasons due to injury. So yes, his best years were after age 31 by default.

Not quite. Sorry, but when a guy's age 27 and 28 full seasons are as relatively weak compared to his age 35, 36, and 37 seasons as Edgar's, you're looking at a guy whose career arc is quite a bit outside what has been normal (with a huge amount of data supporting the norm). That should cause one to wonder.

Also, part of the benefit of PEDs is mainting enough health to continue playing.

 

[chompsmcgee]

Not quite. Sorry, but when a guy's age 27 and 28 full seasons are as relatively weak compared to his age 35, 36, and 37 seasons as Edgar's, you're looking at a guy whose career arc is quite a bit outside what has been normal (with a huge amount of data supporting the norm). That should cause one to wonder.

Also, part of the benefit of PEDs is mainting enough health to continue playing.

Please use some sort of facts in your posts or I just can't take them too seriously.

His first full year, age 27 he had a WAR of 5.5 (12th overall in MLB), at 28 his 5.7 WAR was 13th overall, and 29 his 6.2 WAR was 8th in baseball.

 

[muskiesfan]

Listen, I'm not going to sit here and argue it. It's a position. I've even stated my thoughts against the position. However, it's a position. Hitter in the title or not, it's a position that has to be fielded in one league. I don't think it's fair to say they have to be the tippy top of the top to be considered.

A guy with a career .300/.400/.500, 2k+ hits, 300-400 hrs, 1,500+ RBI has to be in consideration, in my opinion. I don't know if a DH has had those career numbers or not. I'm not using a specific example. I'm just using those numbers as a point of reference.

Even playing strictly half the game, it's the most difficult part of the game. You can shake a tree and you'll get a lot of gloves, but not nearly as many bats. Ask Pedro Cerrano, even Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball. Hitting is damn hard. Even if that is all you do, it doesn't make it easier. I have no problem holding them to a higher standard to an extent, but it shouldn't be best of the best of the best at the very top of each category.

 

[MansGame]

Pretty easy if you have a basic grasp of metrics like wRC+ (a slightly more sophisticated gauge of hitting productivity than total number of hits).

If you need context, read: wRC and wRC+ | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library. 120 is considered excellent. 100 is average. 150 is elite.

wRC+ is also park and league-adjusted, allowing one to to compare players who played in different years, parks, and leagues. Want to know how Ted Williams compares with Albert Pujols in terms of offensive abilities? This is your statistic.



FWIW, Ortiz has had 5 such seasons (and a couple real close), Vlad had 4 (and a few close), Sheffield had 6. Edgar had 8.

EDIT: This is very cool. Just for fun, I took a look at Albert Belle. He had 4 seasons with 150+ out of his 500 PA qualifying seasons, which was 10 of his official 12 seasons... had 100+ in every season he had 500 PA's, which was 10 of his 12 official seasons.

 

[muskiesfan]

Please use some sort of facts in your posts or I just can't take them too seriously.

His first full year, age 27 he had a WAR of 5.5 (12th overall in MLB), at 28 his 5.7 WAR was 13th overall, and 29 his 6.2 WAR was 8th in baseball.

I'm not taking sides, but not everyone uses sabremetrics as the be all end all. I know that there are numbers that may or may not be better at valuing players, but WAR isn't consistent across the board. Different sites come up with different WAR numbers. I'm pretty sure that includes strictly OWAR.

Just because someone doesn't use newer metrics/numbers doesn't mean they are not using facts. If counting stats were completely useless, they wouldn't be counted.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Other than career walks, does he rank top 50 or so in any significant batting stat?

Only 33rd in one of the most significant statistical categories, OPS. Ahead of Chipper Jones, Hank Aaron, Tris Speaker, Frank Robinson, Mike Piazza, Duke Snider, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey Jr., Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Eddie Mathews, Harmon Killebrew, Jackie Robinson, Wade Boggs, Honus Wagner, George Brett, Al Kaline, George Sisler, Tony Gwynn, Nap Lajoie, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Cap Anson, Kirby Puckett, Eddie Murray, Roberto Clemente, Yogi Berra, Don Mattingly, Ernie Banks, Derek Jeter, Dave Winfield, Rod Carew, Rickey Henderson, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Andre Dawson, Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg and COUNTLESS other greats of the game and Hall of Famers.

 

[MansGame]

Only 33rd in one of the most significant statistical categories, OPS. Ahead of Chipper Jones, Hank Aaron, Tris Speaker, Frank Robinson, Mike Piazza, Duke Snider, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey Jr., Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Eddie Mathews, Harmon Killebrew, Jackie Robinson, Wade Boggs, Honus Wagner, George Brett, Al Kaline, George Sisler, Tony Gwynn, Nap Lajoie, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Cap Anson, Kirby Puckett, Eddie Murray, Roberto Clemente, Yogi Berra, Don Mattingly, Ernie Banks, Derek Jeter, Dave Winfield, Rod Carew, Rickey Henderson, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Andre Dawson, Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg and COUNTLESS other greats of the game and Hall of Famers.

LOL!!

 

[chompsmcgee]

I'm not taking sides, but not everyone uses sabremetrics as the be all end all. I know that there are numbers that may or may not be better at valuing players, but WAR isn't consistent across the board. Different sites come up with different WAR numbers. I'm pretty sure that includes strictly OWAR.

Just because someone doesn't use newer metrics/numbers doesn't mean they are not using facts. If counting stats were completely useless, they wouldn't be counted.

Not saying that WAR is some sort of end all be all, but at the very least it's a way to add some context to the quality of a player's season in comparison to his peers.

 

[muskiesfan]

Not saying that WAR is some sort of end all be all, but at the very least it's a way to add some context to the quality of a player's season in comparison to his peers.

I'm not saying you were. It is a useful stat, but it is flawed just like most other stats. I agree it adds context, I was just adding that not everyone is on board that sabermetrics are the best way to quantify a player's value. Again, not taking sides or saying one is better than the other. Just offering an opinion.

 

[sportscardtheory]

LOL!!

Oh, and he's also ahead of Rico Brogna. That should punch him a HOF induction if ever there was a gauge...

 

[muskiesfan]

It's a tough call on Martinez. One day I think he should be in, another day I don't. He had a fine career and put up good numbers. He's definitely Hall of Very Good, I'm just not sure if he's Hall of Fame.

He's right there with HOF Standards and HOF Monitor, but he comes up short in Black and Gray Ink. I watched the guy play and he was a solid hitter. I wouldn't be mad if he were elected and I wouldn't be mad if he weren't.

 

[elmalo]

Only 33rd in one of the most significant statistical categories, OPS. Ahead of Chipper Jones, Hank Aaron, Tris Speaker, Frank Robinson, Mike Piazza, Duke Snider, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey Jr., Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Eddie Mathews, Harmon Killebrew, Jackie Robinson, Wade Boggs, Honus Wagner, George Brett, Al Kaline, George Sisler, Tony Gwynn, Nap Lajoie, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Cap Anson, Kirby Puckett, Eddie Murray, Roberto Clemente, Yogi Berra, Don Mattingly, Ernie Banks, Derek Jeter, Dave Winfield, Rod Carew, Rickey Henderson, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Andre Dawson, Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg and COUNTLESS other greats of the game and Hall of Famers.

a lot of the players on that list were also great, not good, but great defensively. Some are considered at the top of the list all time at their positions.

 

[sportscardtheory]

a lot of the players on that list were also great, not good, but great defensively. Some are considered at the top of the list all time at their positions.

Sure, but many are saying he had to be an elite hitter to Hall-worthy, and OPS is about as good as it gets when it comes to hitting. He was an ELITE hitter, as in, one of the best of all-time. He most likely would have had the milestone stats if he didn't start his career at age 27.

 

[elmalo]

Sure, but many are saying he had to be an elite hitter to Hall-worthy, and OPS is about as good as it gets when it comes to hitting. He was an ELITE hitter, as in, one of the best of all-time. He most likely would have had the milestone stats if he didn't start his career at age 27.

He was top 10 offensive war 6 times in his career, I just dont think that that is Hall Worthy.

 

[sportscardtheory]

He was top 10 offensive war 6 times in his career, I just dont think that that is Hall Worthy.

Then there are MANY Hall of Famers that you don't think are Hall-worthy. He was a better hitter than probably more than half the hitters in the Hall. If you want to say the HOF is watered down, that's a completely different discussion. As things are, he's certainly Hall-worthy, IMO.

 

[elmalo]

Then there are MANY Hall of Famers that you don't think are Hall-worthy. He was a better hitter than probably more than half the hitters in the Hall. If you want to say the HOF is watered down, that's a completely different discussion. As things are, he's certainly Hall-worthy, IMO.

There are some guys in the Hall of Fame who probably shouldnt be, however, Im not crazy about comparing a player from one era to players from another era. There are too many variables. Comparing them to players of there own era, to me, is a much better way to judge them.

 

[sportscardtheory]

There are some guys in the Hall of Fame who probably shouldnt be, however, Im not crazy about comparing a player from one era to players from another era. There are too many variables. Comparing them to players of there own era, to me, is a much better way to judge them.

Well then, Martinez is 7th in overall WAR during his seasons as a full-time player. Be mindful that he received hardly any WAR from defense like most the others above him did, which makes it even more remarkable.

 

[RogerMarisCollector61]

Pretty easy if you have a basic grasp of metrics like wRC+ (a slightly more sophisticated gauge of hitting productivity than total number of hits).

If you need context, read: wRC and wRC+ | FanGraphs Sabermetrics Library. 120 is considered excellent. 100 is average. 150 is elite.

wRC+ is also park and league-adjusted, allowing one to to compare players who played in different years, parks, and leagues. Want to know how Ted Williams compares with Albert Pujols in terms of offensive abilities? This is your statistic.



FWIW, Ortiz has had 5 such seasons (and a couple real close), Vlad had 4 (and a few close), Sheffield had 6. Edgar had 8.

There is no better metric than number of hits. Juan Pierre is way better than albert pujols because Pujols only hit more than 200 hits once and Pierre did it multiple times. WRC should stand for who really cares.

Advanced statistics? Blasphemy!