Who is the home run king? Maris or Bonds?

200lbhockeyplayer said:

"Good citizens" speed every single day. Why? Because unless you're driving through a school zone, you're not getting pulled over for going 5 over, so let's not play this comical "good citizens abide by the law" routine. And no one is punishing people for being "good" - not me, and not the police.

When a player is part of a union, they have signed a dotted line to show that the union now represents them do they not? The union has pushed back for years on testing and punishment, the same union that knowingly houses the "good citizens" and "bad citizens." All of the members of the union (and all involved with baseball) benefited from steroid usage. Increased revenue meant bigger dollars for players, agents, owners, and yes...the union. If you knowingly harbor a "bad citizen," let alone what has been assumed by many as more than 50% of your membership, the entire organization falls under suspicion. That's not "punishment" - that's the reality of guilt by association.

As far as the "punishment" that Bonds and Clemens may be receiving, it's comically hypocritical. Being judged by people who all but encouraged usage. By people who made a living writing about the exploits of these newly perceived "common thieves" of history and the record books.

So no, I don't believe that it's "funny how the system works," it's comically hypocritical how the system doesn't work. Until McGwire was up for induction, there was no uproar or political posturing stances on the ballot...but to believe that no one prior to McGwire was under serious suspicion is comical at best.

The "punishment" that the game is facing is that no one has addressed it honestly and openly because all parties want to protect their shady past and present. This false uproar from the writers who now have been "saved" and shown the light, after years of corroborating in the depths of the "cheating culture," is sheer comedy.

Click to expand...

• people are watching games
• revenue is waaay up
• the players who have accorded themselves professionally - and didn't artificially make themselves bigger than the game because of greed and self-interest - seem to be doing fine and have been/are being rewarded.
• The moron players who either got caught or artificially made themselves bigger than the game are being punished either with suspensions, are out of the Hall, or were not given the opportunity to play again
• MLB *AND* MLBPA seem genuinely interested in wiping PEDs away.

uniquebaseballcards said:

• the players who have accorded themselves professionally - and didn't artificially make themselves bigger than the game because of greed and self-interest - seem to be doing fine and have been/are being rewarded.
• The moron players who either got caught or artificially made themselves bigger than the game are being punished either with suspensions, are out of the Hall, or were not given the opportunity to play again

Click to expand...

uniquebaseballcards said:

Well, murders are still committed even when there's a death penalty. This just goes to show that punishment isn't always an effective deterrent to wrongdoing - so punishment isn't always relevant.

Nobody expects the PED problem to be immediately or maybe even completely solved, it's too complicated.

But let's look at the landscape:

• people are watching games
• revenue is waaay up
• the players who have accorded themselves professionally - and didn't artificially make themselves bigger than the game because of greed and self-interest - seem to be doing fine and have been/are being rewarded.
• The moron players who either got caught or artificially made themselves bigger than the game are being punished either with suspensions, are out of the Hall, or were not given the opportunity to play again
• MLB *AND* MLBPA seem genuinely interested in wiping PEDs away.

Looks like the system is working and progress is being made. What should be changed/what results should be different?

Click to expand...

Mighty Bombjack said:

Could you list these players, please? I need specificity on this, and it's not so clear to some of us. It is fine if you just exhaustively list the players that fall under the 2nd point I've quoted (i.e., please list all "moron players who either got caught or artificially made themselves bigger than the game") and then I'll know that anyone not on that list falls under the first point and is on the list of "players who have accorded themselves professionally."

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

uniquebaseballcards said:

What makes you think its possible - - or even necessary - - for the good of baseball to know the names of all the offenders in advance?

Click to expand...

200lbhockeyplayer said:

And who exactly has "accorded themselves professionally?" How do we know? It sure seems like the tests work only on the stupid and lazy players, as all of these big names skate by only to be caught when their supplier goes down. MLB is not and will never be on the forefront of PED testing, while the players always will be.

Click to expand...

200lbhockeyplayer said:

Do you honestly believe that MLB and the MLBPA genuinely care about ridding the sport of PEDs? Or do you think they are more interested in ridding the perception that the game is slathered in PEDs? That said, even if the parties are genuinely interested (which I doubt as they are money driven, not driven by ethics), it holds as much sincerity as ARod apologizing for the only two years that he took PEDs...AFTER he was busted. And now after he's been wrapped up in it again. It rings hollow, forced and way too late.

PEDs were brushed under the rug for decades, 10+ years before McGwire, Bonds or Sosa strapped on an MLB uniform...and what now we're supposed to take them seriously?

And who exactly has "accorded themselves professionally?" How do we know? It sure seems like the tests work only on the stupid and lazy players, as all of these big names skate by only to be caught when their supplier goes down. MLB is not and will never be on the forefront of PED testing, while the players always will be.

We all carry the burden of PEDs in the game...everyone from ownership, players (current and former), union, leadership, journalists and fans.

I'll know that both sides are serious about removing PEDs from the game when the players are tested every game (blood and urine) and punishments include voiding contracts, percentage of future salaries for "restitution" (payable to youth baseball programs and a lifetime ban after the second offense.

Extreme? Perhaps, but somehow it's going to be difficult to explain to the next Melky Cabrera, "taking steroids is bad, it only got me $8 million a year AFTER I tested positive."

Real punishments that affect the players, the teams, the unions, the agents and the game.

Click to expand...

ThoseBackPages said:

Baseball IS law!

Click to expand...

Anthony K. said:

The home run king is, until someone tops him, Barry Lamar Bonds.

Click to expand...

uniquebaseballcards said:

Again you're so obsessed with punishment but haven't shown that punishment would be an effective deterrent.

Do you think some guy whose family makes $10K a year in the D.R. is going to care about your "punishment"? Does a player who only cares about media attention care about any of this? Is an ailing player going to care if it provides him with the chance to win or break a record? How much are Bonds' HR records worth exactly?

You don't know any of this now, and MLB surely didn't know this either a decade ago. But MLB and MLBPA are learning how to deal.

Click to expand...

bongo870 said:

Click to expand...