OK. I thought the packs were marked.
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109 Bowman Blue Wave Redemption Packs - Screwed
- Thread starter BowmanChromeAddict
- Start date
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OK. I thought the packs were marked.
A_Pharis
Active member
No stated odds. Odds were calculated based on the assumption that a certain number of signers signed and that all were put into the packs.
Bob Loblaw
Active member
For levity's sake...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...43490716.47885.196554717042842&type=1&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...43490716.47885.196554717042842&type=1&theater
A_Pharis
Active member
Edit: See it now.
Funny stuff.
Funny stuff.
carlitoson
Active member
- Aug 7, 2008
- 1,813
- 1
Looking at eBay, there has been at least one of every subject appear (all 38 of them). Whether that means there are indeed 50 of each...no idea.
FWIW, I received 4 packs and pulled one autograph and one red. Maybe it was the short thank you note I included with the wrappers (highly doubtful, but who knows).
Jim, sorry you didn't get what you were expecting to get.
FWIW, I received 4 packs and pulled one autograph and one red. Maybe it was the short thank you note I included with the wrappers (highly doubtful, but who knows).
Jim, sorry you didn't get what you were expecting to get.
That's the key word.
muskiesfan
New member
I think people are reading way too much into this.
Every product that is released, a person or machine has to know which packs contain hits. The reason, to try to ensure everything falls in line with the stated odds. So boxes marked "Non Auto Packs", "Auto Packs", or "Red Wave" packs should be no issue. For every product released with stated odds, someone or some thing has to know which packs have the hits to be able to provide them at the stated odds.
Did Topps release stated odds on these Blue Wave Packs? I'm not talking someone doing their own math, I mean did Topps print something out, in black and white, that specifically states the odds of hitting an auto or Red Wave? Did they release this information anywhere? If there are no stated odds from Topps at how often autos and Red Waves are to be received, there should be no problem.
Was it in poor taste to reuse these boxes without clearly removing the wording? Yes, I agree with that. However, the contents had to be known by those who were sending these out. If not, maybe the OP would have received 109 autos. Guaranteed there would be no complaints from him, but what about the next guy who got only 109 Blue Waves?
This was done as an added bonus. Nothing more, nothing less. Knowing there was a short window to get packs in to be able to receive one of the limited packs, people should not have paid the money they did for empty pack wrappers. Any monetary value that was assessed to these wrappers were done so on the secondary market. Even Topps used the word "FREE" on their sell sheets and product advertisements.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I do not believe that anyone is falling on their sword and crying out for the greater good of everyone. Maximum profit was not able to be achieved and now there is a perceived issue with what was received. Again, no one minds when they are given extra. If the OP had hit autos in every pack or every other pack, would he still have concern for those who did not hit at the same rate? What about for those who received no auto at all? Would he have lead the charge against Topps in making this right? Would there be accusations of cards being backdoored? We all know the answers to these questions.
This is not a personal attack and I am not putting anyone down. So what if I didn't purchase any of this product. My opinion is just as valid as the next person's.
Every product that is released, a person or machine has to know which packs contain hits. The reason, to try to ensure everything falls in line with the stated odds. So boxes marked "Non Auto Packs", "Auto Packs", or "Red Wave" packs should be no issue. For every product released with stated odds, someone or some thing has to know which packs have the hits to be able to provide them at the stated odds.
Did Topps release stated odds on these Blue Wave Packs? I'm not talking someone doing their own math, I mean did Topps print something out, in black and white, that specifically states the odds of hitting an auto or Red Wave? Did they release this information anywhere? If there are no stated odds from Topps at how often autos and Red Waves are to be received, there should be no problem.
Was it in poor taste to reuse these boxes without clearly removing the wording? Yes, I agree with that. However, the contents had to be known by those who were sending these out. If not, maybe the OP would have received 109 autos. Guaranteed there would be no complaints from him, but what about the next guy who got only 109 Blue Waves?
This was done as an added bonus. Nothing more, nothing less. Knowing there was a short window to get packs in to be able to receive one of the limited packs, people should not have paid the money they did for empty pack wrappers. Any monetary value that was assessed to these wrappers were done so on the secondary market. Even Topps used the word "FREE" on their sell sheets and product advertisements.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I do not believe that anyone is falling on their sword and crying out for the greater good of everyone. Maximum profit was not able to be achieved and now there is a perceived issue with what was received. Again, no one minds when they are given extra. If the OP had hit autos in every pack or every other pack, would he still have concern for those who did not hit at the same rate? What about for those who received no auto at all? Would he have lead the charge against Topps in making this right? Would there be accusations of cards being backdoored? We all know the answers to these questions.
This is not a personal attack and I am not putting anyone down. So what if I didn't purchase any of this product. My opinion is just as valid as the next person's.
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- Thread starter
- #188
BowmanChromeAddict
New member
I bought 0 cases of 2011 Bowman. I bought 10 cases of 2010 Bowman.
Wow, so a free wrapper redemption with no stated odds made you buy 30 more cases from last year and 20 more from the year before?
- Thread starter
- #190
BowmanChromeAddict
New member
Good. I hope this happens more and more.
- Thread starter
- #191
BowmanChromeAddict
New member
Not sure how you can possibly speak for me and my character saying "We all know the answers to these questions" and then proceed to say this is not a personal attack. Sure felt personal. Not sure what I ever did but apparently I need to apologize for it because you clearly seem to believe you know what kind of person I am and what I would do for myself vs. others.
gt2590
Super Moderator
No. As stated before, the orders for this product were made before Topps even announced the Blue Wave program. And Jim bases his order on the perceived strength of the Product.
And as he said, maybe Topps just frigged up how they distributed the autos and the folks with packs coming later in the redemption will get alot more Autos in their packs. It's unfortunate and probably unfair, but at least Customers will be getting the autos and there was found to be no "Shady" shenanigins, just poor execution.
Heck, alot of folks have always specualted some Retail packs were loaded because they were packed out later and they had extra "hits" still sitting around.
All Jim was trying to do was make folks aware of a potential problem and see if there was a solution made...
Wait a second, strength of product?? Didn't 2010 have Strasburg autos, and Harper USA Chromes, only 10 cases and then in 2011 the biggest hyped prospect in YEARS, ZERO cases?! Sorry but to me that's not buying on strength of product.
And I don't buy the whole William Wallace thing either! Sorry maybe I am wrong, but I don't buy it.
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muskiesfan
New member
Did I not make valid points? Did I not ask valid questions?
It is nothing personal against you. It could have been any other member on this board and I would have said the same thing.
Please, be 100% honest. Had you got more autographs than you thought you should have, would you have said that it wasn't fair because someone else would get shorted?
Had someone else posted how they were shorted after you did better than expected, would you had said you would contact Topps for them because they were shorted?
Had you did better than expected, would you being paying attention to other breaks to see the rate with which they hit autographs?
It's not attacking your character at all. I'm not saying you're a bad person or anything remotely close. It's just very simple, had you received more than you thought you should expect, you would have been happy. Who wouldn't, right?
If someone else, not a friend, not a buddy, not a family member, but some random member that you had never seen post before had the same problem, would you really say, "I'm mad for everyone". Honestly, I don't believe it. I'm not saying you wouldn't offer Topps' contact information, but I don't believe you would make a thread about how randomfcbmember1234 got shorted and it's crap that Topps did this. I don't believe you would begin suggesting that cards had been backdoored.
Spin it if you wish. I'm not trying to call you out on anything. You may be the greatest person alive, but I still wouldn't believe that you would lead a charge against Topps had you received what you expected or better.
- Thread starter
- #195
BowmanChromeAddict
New member
Actually the Pack Redemption was announced in the original solicitation if I recall correctly.
Why do you feel he should "lead the charge against Topps had he received what he expected or better"?
Regardless of whether he would have or not, some of us like the fact that posts like these keep us informed about the hobby and possibly get some problems addressed.
And when someone actually opens packs and "hit autos in every pack or every other pack" (your words), would please let me know.
Sure once in a while someone stumbles upon a hot box and pulls more than the stated odds.
Is that person responsible for others who's boxes were shorted?
Of course not, but the manufacturer should be.
David
muskiesfan
New member
To illustrate my point, I am going to turn this around on me.
If I bought a regular hobby box of Bowman, not a Jumbo, just a regular hobby box and hit 4 autos instead of 1, I would not apologize for it. I would not say, Hey. I just hit 4 autos from a Bowman box and I am mad for the people who will not get their 1 auto because of me. Or, I just hit 4 autos in my hobby box and it's not fair that someone else is going to get shorted because of me. Let me contact Topps to make this right.
I wouldn't do that. Does that make me a bad person? Would anyone else really do that?
That's my entire point. If you got what you expected to get or even better, you wouldn't be upset. You wouldn't be contacting Topps to make it right. I know I wouldn't and I don't know anyone else who would either. If I did better than expected or better than what I thought I was supposed to have done, I would have made a thread like, I hit 4 autos from a hobby box! Or something along those lines.
Sure, I would post in someone's thread that got shorted and give them Topps' contact information. I would agree that it's garbage they got shorted. I would not tell them that I am mad for them and will be contacting Topps to make it right for them.
If I bought a regular hobby box of Bowman, not a Jumbo, just a regular hobby box and hit 4 autos instead of 1, I would not apologize for it. I would not say, Hey. I just hit 4 autos from a Bowman box and I am mad for the people who will not get their 1 auto because of me. Or, I just hit 4 autos in my hobby box and it's not fair that someone else is going to get shorted because of me. Let me contact Topps to make this right.
I wouldn't do that. Does that make me a bad person? Would anyone else really do that?
That's my entire point. If you got what you expected to get or even better, you wouldn't be upset. You wouldn't be contacting Topps to make it right. I know I wouldn't and I don't know anyone else who would either. If I did better than expected or better than what I thought I was supposed to have done, I would have made a thread like, I hit 4 autos from a hobby box! Or something along those lines.
Sure, I would post in someone's thread that got shorted and give them Topps' contact information. I would agree that it's garbage they got shorted. I would not tell them that I am mad for them and will be contacting Topps to make it right for them.
muskiesfan
New member
I will agree 100% that Topps is dead wrong if someone will show me where they stated odds on the autos and Red Waves. I will admit that BCA is owed by Topps and that it should be corrected.
Doing your own math and expecting to get a certain number of hits does not fall back on Topps. Believe me, I am not much of a Topps fan. I was always an Upper Deck guy, but if they gave no numbers and made no guarantees, then the numbers on everything is pure speculation.
The OP said he was mad for everyone. He also mentioned how he has been contacting Topps to correct the situation. If they messed up, I hope they make it right. Expecting something with no stated odds or guarantees is a tough one to prove.
Had he simply shared his numbers, I would agree with your points. He didn't. He's upset because he felt he was shorted. He made accusations of items being backdoored because he feels slighted by Topps. If they did not meet the criteria that they had put out, he'd be completely right. So far, I have not seen anything where Topps said that certain cards would fall at certain rates.
My point about leading the charge is that if he were happy, all would be fine. If others were shorted, life happens. I think the use of the "Non Auto Packs" box is what got this going. My mentioning someone hitting autos every pack or every other was when I was saying that people had to know what packs had what. If all of the packs were lumped in a giant pile and no one knew which packs contained hits, is it not conceivable that someone could get nothing but autos in their packs? It's just as conceivable as saying things are being backdoored.
muskiesfan
New member
Jim, I sincerely apologize if you feel I was trying to attack your character. It truly was not my intention and could not be further from the actual point I was trying to make.
I was adding my 2 cents to the discussion and was using your situation to illustrate a general point. That is why I came back with a post on how I would handle something.
I just feel it's very simple. When someone is or feels shorted, lets lynch Topps. When someone does as well or better than expected, Topps is great.
I was adding my 2 cents to the discussion and was using your situation to illustrate a general point. That is why I came back with a post on how I would handle something.
I just feel it's very simple. When someone is or feels shorted, lets lynch Topps. When someone does as well or better than expected, Topps is great.
Let me preface this buy stating: I don't like Topps.
With that said, I went back and reread the post that matters most....your initial post. The only complaint that warrants any type of validity is the issue with the box you received having "Non-Auto Packs" clearly printed on the box. This is the only way a potential claim of any sorts could be made with regards to backdooring or any shadiness. Even with that a possibility, there is no feasible way to prove it, unless you have a massive bank account to back up the lawyers you will have to hire to compete against Topps lawyers.
Again, it is clearly possible that something shady is going on. But at this point, that's all it is-- a possibility. To reiterate, it cannot and never will be proven otherwise. It's basically fighting a losing battle.
Even if there were stated odds, it wouldn't matter-- as it has been pointed out many times previously in this thread, stated odds are a reflection across the entire print run and does not guarantee that if you open said number of packs you will receive said number of correlating inserts per the odds.
Bottom line, while it certainly sucks that you only got 4 autos from the packs you received, it was NEVER guaranteed that you would get the correct ratio of autos to packs as per the odds.
Furthermore, as stated ad naseum in previous posts, the packs were a bonus. There's no way around it. You can try to spin it as much as you want. They were an added-value "free" bonus. I bought a case of Jumbo's shortly after release. Was I bummed to find out that it was too late to send in my packs and get my bonus? Sure. But not enough to call Topps and complain. It's not worth it. I wasn't buying the case for the potential freebie.
To be more opionated, in busting the packs instead of taking the sure money, which was good money had you sold them unopened, you took a gamble and apparently lost when compared to what you could have made by simply selling the packs. If the rush you got from opening the packs outweighs the money you left on the table, then fair enough-- it was your choice and in that instance you came out ahead, albeit not financially.
I can't fault Topps, although I don't like them, in this case. Now, if it can be proven that something "shady" is in fact happening, that's a different story. But again, that we will never know.
With that said, I went back and reread the post that matters most....your initial post. The only complaint that warrants any type of validity is the issue with the box you received having "Non-Auto Packs" clearly printed on the box. This is the only way a potential claim of any sorts could be made with regards to backdooring or any shadiness. Even with that a possibility, there is no feasible way to prove it, unless you have a massive bank account to back up the lawyers you will have to hire to compete against Topps lawyers.
Again, it is clearly possible that something shady is going on. But at this point, that's all it is-- a possibility. To reiterate, it cannot and never will be proven otherwise. It's basically fighting a losing battle.
Even if there were stated odds, it wouldn't matter-- as it has been pointed out many times previously in this thread, stated odds are a reflection across the entire print run and does not guarantee that if you open said number of packs you will receive said number of correlating inserts per the odds.
Bottom line, while it certainly sucks that you only got 4 autos from the packs you received, it was NEVER guaranteed that you would get the correct ratio of autos to packs as per the odds.
Furthermore, as stated ad naseum in previous posts, the packs were a bonus. There's no way around it. You can try to spin it as much as you want. They were an added-value "free" bonus. I bought a case of Jumbo's shortly after release. Was I bummed to find out that it was too late to send in my packs and get my bonus? Sure. But not enough to call Topps and complain. It's not worth it. I wasn't buying the case for the potential freebie.
To be more opionated, in busting the packs instead of taking the sure money, which was good money had you sold them unopened, you took a gamble and apparently lost when compared to what you could have made by simply selling the packs. If the rush you got from opening the packs outweighs the money you left on the table, then fair enough-- it was your choice and in that instance you came out ahead, albeit not financially.
I can't fault Topps, although I don't like them, in this case. Now, if it can be proven that something "shady" is in fact happening, that's a different story. But again, that we will never know.
