A little info on Game Used cards...

[ASTROBURN]

I just read this in a book I'm currently reading titled "Mint Condition"...

In 2003, Donruss dropped more than a quarter of a million dollars on a Yankees home jersey that Babe Ruth had worn in 1925 - one of just three known to exist - and then cut it into twenty one hundred square inch swatches.

Donruss would give one piece of the very much shredded jersey to Ruth's eighty six year old daughter, Julia Ruth Stevens, and a few others to its various departmental employees of the year. The rest of the fragments of pinstriped cloth would be inserted into packs of Donruss cards for the next three years, at prices ranging from $2.99 to $150 per pack.

One jersey cut into 2100 individual squares. Thats a lot of friggin game used cards. :benson:

BTW - you gotta read this book. I'm in the chapter on grading now and its mind blowing...

 

[predatorkj]

Kinda makes you wonder why a company would bother risking their rep to create fake GU cards as a lot of people believe. A current star player's jersey could probably yield a similar amount and if that is the case, you could buy 10 or so of them and be good for a few years worth of products. Makes me feel a little better about the GU items being authentic.

 

[Vagrant]

Kinda makes you wonder why a company would bother risking their rep to create fake GU cards as a lot of people believe. A current star player's jersey could probably yield a similar amount and if that is the case, you could buy 10 or so of them and be good for a few years worth of products. Makes me feel a little better about the GU items being authentic.

Going by the organizational skills card companies have exhibited with redemptions, replacements, damages, back door items, cut signatures, inaccurate patches, and serial numbering snafus I tend to have about 5% faith that the card I am holding was actually worn by the player depicted on the front. All they really have to do is get the team right and to be honest, a company trying to cut corners would sure as hell stick a piece of a Chris Carpenter jersey in an Albert Pujols card if they didn't have enough material for a product run.

I just find it virtually impossible to think that the same dummies in charge of quality control that paste cards on backwards, make spelling errors on established star players' names, and generally make a mockery of their own creation has any skill in organizing thousands of player jersey samples.

 

[ASTROBURN]

Yeah, I mean if one jersey supplies that many pieces, all you would need is one piece from a player and you are set for many years. But its the patches that are causing all the fakes. They bring the higher premiums. I'm still jaded after reading Operation Bullpen. Somewhere in there it was mentioned that a card company was even being looked into as far as fake "Authentic" memorabilia and autographs.

 

[predatorkj]

Kinda makes you wonder why a company would bother risking their rep to create fake GU cards as a lot of people believe. A current star player's jersey could probably yield a similar amount and if that is the case, you could buy 10 or so of them and be good for a few years worth of products. Makes me feel a little better about the GU items being authentic.

Going by the organizational skills card companies have exhibited with redemptions, replacements, damages, back door items, cut signatures, inaccurate patches, and serial numbering snafus I tend to have about 5% faith that the card I am holding was actually worn by the player depicted on the front. All they really have to do is get the team right and to be honest, a company trying to cut corners would sure as hell stick a piece of a Chris Carpenter jersey in an Albert Pujols card if they didn't have enough material for a product run.

I just find it virtually impossible to think that the same dummies in charge of quality control that paste cards on backwards, make spelling errors on established star players' names, and generally make a mockery of their own creation has any skill in organizing thousands of player jersey samples.

Eh...I get what you are saying but it's not really that hard to keep them seperated. I mean, dude...you have a ziplock baggie and it's labeled. Yeah yeah...I know. But still, I think mistakes are minimal.

As for sticking the wrong player in on purpose(like your Carpenter example above), I think they'd be hard pressed to do that because if just one guy got pissed off or started popping off or squealed, can you imagine the kind of crap that would come down on them(the card company)? They'd be up s!@t creek without a paddle.

Plus, it would be hard to run out because I have to think they have a guy ordering new stuff all the time. And unlike with the autographs where they are at the player's mercy, the jersey's shouldn't have the same type of holdups. They order them, they come in directly from auction houses or MLB or wherever.

 

[predatorkj]

Yeah, I mean if one jersey supplies that many pieces, all you would need is one piece from a player and you are set for many years. But its the patches that are causing all the fakes. They bring the higher premiums. I'm still jaded after reading Operation Bullpen. Somewhere in there it was mentioned that a card company was even being looked into as far as fake "Authentic" memorabilia and autographs.

On Ruth...yes. On a normal player they insert in every set...one jersey may last for all of three products. Which is why I say...they'd need a good head start like 10 jersey's. That would give them some nice play room as far as amount of materials. You forget, some jersey cards are numbered to /500 or higher. Then you have another version numbered lower and then another numbered lower until you get to the real low numbered stuff that is primarily patch stuff. Patch stuff gets eaten up quicker which is also why you'd need a few jersey's at the very least. Say you get 250 pieces of patch out of one jersey, that might cover you for 5 or 10 sets max. Maybe more maybe less depedning on the print run of patch cards in each set and the amount of parallels in each set. I've seen and own several Bagwell cards where patch cards were numbered as high as /300(either 2003 or 2004 National Patchtime)
and several are numbered as high as /100 or /50. Trust me, they get eaten up fast.


As for the patchfaking, man, it's been going on for a long time and about the only thing you can do is educate yourself. There are some sets where amazing patches did come from and others that are not known for amazing patches. It's easy to get burned. Just realize, you may be buying a fake so you can either buck up and do it anyways or you can be worried and buy very selectively or not at all. Some people won't touch em, some people only buy certain cards, and some will buy anything. I do not believe I personally own a fake patch. Maybe I do. But you have to educate yourself on what you are buying. For every 8 out of 10 people getting burned, often times it's because they didn't know what they were buying, and what to look for.

As for a company selling fake autos, about the only instance I know of is that cut card featuring Cobb and Ruth and two other players. It was a big to do a few years back. Many people do not believe it was authentic. You know what I think? I think that these companies have to buy cuts the same way we do. They aren't special or immune to anything. I will say that I think they will buy where and when they can and do try to save money in the process. Now they are not going to spend a zillion bucks to get everything re-authenticated. It would be astronomical. So I do believe they are basing it to be real off of whatever the Auction Houses' authenticators say. And just like me or you...that is all they can do when it comes to the Auction House transaction they are involved in. And they should be able to hold those Auction Houses liable in the event of forgery. The only difference is while you and me care and would try to do our homework and may even take it to another authenticator, they take the authentication and run with it.

I've been told different but I do not believe it. And honestly, in the event that a cut or memorabilia was proven to be fake, the consumer could sue the company but then the company could sue the place they purchased their items from. Not to mention, their language on the backs of the cards does not guarantee you anything anymore. It's a nice little loophole. About the only thing you see anymore is it's been presented as real to the company. I used to see a lot of "guaranteed authenticity" but not anymore.

 

[autocut]

The problem is, most card companies use 3rd party vendors and can only go by the paperwork that vendor provides. An example is the 2001 Fleer Genuine Edgar Martinez Final Cut which says "Game Worn Batting Glove", but only has game used patch pieces from a 2000 Navy Gamer. Fleer had no clue what happened to the batting glove. The patches used in the Final cut was suppose to have been used for the Material Issue card which is why that card was short printed also. So, if entire memorabilia can come up missing, swatches can easily be mixed up.

 

[autocut]

Yeah, I mean if one jersey supplies that many pieces, all you would need is one piece from a player and you are set for many years. But its the patches that are causing all the fakes. They bring the higher premiums. I'm still jaded after reading Operation Bullpen. Somewhere in there it was mentioned that a card company was even being looked into as far as fake "Authentic" memorabilia and autographs.

Fake autos can happen and maybe does with stickers. Who knows who "help" sign the stickers.

 

[saferseas]

Eh...I get what you are saying but it's not really that hard to keep them seperated. I mean, dude...you have a ziplock baggie and it's labeled. Yeah yeah...I know. But still, I think mistakes are minimal.

Yeah, just like it's really easy to keep track of what players have already had "1st Bowman chrome" cards and label them appropriately from year to year like Topps does......oh....wait....:?

 

[Vagrant]

Yeah, I mean if one jersey supplies that many pieces, all you would need is one piece from a player and you are set for many years. But its the patches that are causing all the fakes. They bring the higher premiums. I'm still jaded after reading Operation Bullpen. Somewhere in there it was mentioned that a card company was even being looked into as far as fake "Authentic" memorabilia and autographs.

Fake autos can happen and maybe does with stickers. Who knows who "help" sign the stickers.

I know of a very important, very high profile card in which this happened and people were none the wiser. It does happen, folks. Especially when we're talking about young players who have signatures that change frequently.

 

[ASTROBURN]

Well, the card companies are all out to make a buck (or at least they were when they existed). So whatever and however they could do it would have probably taken place. There's demand and they need to make 300 more Pujols Jersey cards? Well, who's to say they didnt just take any Cardinals jersey to do it? Ahh, the qualms of our hobby... :?

BTW, I'm on to Card Sharks now. Mint Condition was a good read, and is the most current book being published in 2010. I just wish there was more information regarding why there's only Topps now.

 

[CLMartinez]

Okay, a quarter of a million they paid for the jersey. Add security salary for transporting this jersey from the auction house to storage, from storage to the chop block and so on. The two times (maybe more) that they moved this jersey already posses a threat to the authenticity of "this" jersey depending on the type of security they hired. Granted that it's still the original jersey that they chopped, is it the same security people that delivered the chopped jersey to the company that inserts this little jersey's to the cards? After working hours, do they leave these little jersey's on top of the desk where they're working or are they locking it up in the vault? You know the cleaning people are just like the rest of us. They read newspapers stating that company so and so just paid this much for a certain jersey and guess what this looks like. From the auction block to the card, we're talking at least 7 to 10 people handling this jersey and I'm sure they're all thinking that "WE" get the real deal, this of course includes the card manufacturer, right? SURE, whatever.
On the second phase, placing the right piece of chopped jersey on the card. Hopefully, with this kind of money involved, they hired a couple of people "ONLY" to handle this particular player. Heavens forbid they hire a dozen or so, each with multiple "zip locked" bags of little jersey of different players and get it all mixed up. We all know the people they hire are not ordinary people like us where we go out after work, drink a couple and go back to work with a hangover and mess things up sometimes. I'm sure the people they hire for this kind of work are exceptionally "professionals" that only work and rest. I'm sure they also are all very knowledgeable of the players jersey's they're working on, right? SURE, whatever. Then, we're going to have to talk about the security issues again. The person they hired making let's say $20 an hour stuffing these little jerseys on the card suddenly realizes that the little "zip locked" baggy of 1000 little jerseys is worth more than a months pay? Really? Is he / she going to continue stuffing the little jersey in the cards? SURE!
A couple of years from now, you meet someone from the company and there hanging in his/her private collection is the same jersey that we are talking about today.

 

[ronzo]

The person they hired making let's say $20 an hour stuffing these little jerseys on the card suddenly realizes that the little "zip locked" baggy of 1000 little jerseys is worth more than a months pay? Really? Is he / she going to continue stuffing the little jersey in the cards? SURE!
A couple of years from now, you meet someone from the company and there hanging in his/her private collection is the same jersey that we are talking about today.

Who would buy a ziplock bag of cut up jerseys that could have come from any jersey.

 

[predatorkj]

The person they hired making let's say $20 an hour stuffing these little jerseys on the card suddenly realizes that the little "zip locked" baggy of 1000 little jerseys is worth more than a months pay? Really? Is he / she going to continue stuffing the little jersey in the cards? SURE!
A couple of years from now, you meet someone from the company and there hanging in his/her private collection is the same jersey that we are talking about today.

Who would buy a ziplock bag of cut up jerseys that could have come from any jersey.

Yes. And coming from a man with a sick Ripken patch in his sig. Okay...


In any case, what I would assume is that when they buy a jersey, it is mailed to them much like it would be mailed to me or you. As for something like a Ruth jersey, how they play that, I have no idea. As for cleaning people, I'm not sure where they are exactly when they are cutting up cards and jersey's but I doubt they have a cleaning crew in there. I'm sure they are given a broom and told to keep their workspace clean. Now yes, I do agree that there are some real possibilities of fraud here. Or problems. But companies around the world pay less for people to do way more important jobs. With way more important responsibilities. Don't assume it's all a sham. I'm also pretty damn sure that while it may not be a 100% failsafe, they are pretty picky when it comes to who they hire. I am sure they do thorough background checks as well as make sure you probably are not involved with sports or collecting sports related items.

 

[CLMartinez]

The person they hired making let's say $20 an hour stuffing these little jerseys on the card suddenly realizes that the little "zip locked" baggy of 1000 little jerseys is worth more than a months pay? Really? Is he / she going to continue stuffing the little jersey in the cards? SURE!
A couple of years from now, you meet someone from the company and there hanging in his/her private collection is the same jersey that we are talking about today.

Who would buy a ziplock bag of cut up jerseys that could have come from any jersey.

Yes. And coming from a man with a sick Ripken patch in his sig. Okay...


In any case, what I would assume is that when they buy a jersey, it is mailed to them much like it would be mailed to me or you. As for something like a Ruth jersey, how they play that, I have no idea. As for cleaning people, I'm not sure where they are exactly when they are cutting up cards and jersey's but I doubt they have a cleaning crew in there. I'm sure they are given a broom and told to keep their workspace clean. Now yes, I do agree that there are some real possibilities of fraud here. Or problems. But companies around the world pay less for people to do way more important jobs. With way more important responsibilities. Don't assume it's all a sham. I'm also pretty damn sure that while it may not be a 100% failsafe, they are pretty picky when it comes to who they hire. I am sure they do thorough background checks as well as make sure you probably are not involved with sports or collecting sports related items.

Beleive it or not I only have less than a dozen multi colored patches of Ripken in my collection of over 1000 jersey/patch/bat. I did not buy the card jumping up and down thinking I have a piece of jersey/patch/bat or whatever touched or worn by Cal Ripken. The card itself is serial numbered to 10 and of course I need to have it. Heck if I wanted to add a Ripken jersey in my collection, why settle for the ones that's cut up in small pieces?

As far as "who would buy a ziplock bag of jersey?" The same people that want you to think tehy really did cut up the original jersey. After all, why give the public a chance to prove it's not authentic. I am sure they know that NOT one of use will destroy a GU card of this kind of value to get the little jersey authenticated. Would you?

Maybe I should say there is no way to prove me right, but if you really think about it, why would they cut up a quarter million dollar jersey when they can cut up another jersey for much, much, much less and use the publicity in paying that much. At the same time, there is no way for these card companies to prove that they really did cut up "The" jersey. Just too much money and too many people involved....

 

[autocut]

It happens...

Looks like Twins jersey swatch

White jersey on back

 

[packbusta]

It happens...

Looks like Twins jersey swatch

White jersey on back

Could that just be an away jersey?

 

[autocut]

It happens...

Looks like Twins jersey swatch

White jersey on back

Could that just be an away jersey?

Suppose to be a piece of the jersey on the back of the card (pictured) which is a white jersey. Swatch doesn't match. Under the jersey on the back of the card, it states, "This is a photo of the actual jersey from which the swatch was taken."

 

[rymflaherty]

At least Baseball doesn't have a "rookie Premiere" (that I know of).

With the amount of jersey's the companies throw on the players at those.......they probably have GU'd cards for the rest of their career.
There were some ridiculous pics from this past years football premier. There was a player who had to have between 10-20 jersey's on at one time while he was signing. I had heard in the past they'd wear them for 30 seconds and throw on another, but seeing them layered on like that and looking like a 350 lb. Weeble was completely absurd.

 

[ASTROBURN]

It happens...

Looks like Twins jersey swatch

White jersey on back

Wow. Now thats totally blatant. Cant argue with that one. White pictured, grey cut. Now who do we believe?