C.C. Sabathia for CY Young

[Anthony K.]

snipped
I wouldn't say that I am "up in arms" over others disagreeing. In fact I have no idea who soccerman even wants to win. He came in with a lot of false statistics as well as bold claims about late season struggles which simply aren''t true. So I would hardly say that his point was valid.

I do know that the last month or so can decide a Cy Young race. Quite simply his final month or two have been very strong and he has not shown soccerman's so called "overuse."

I type quickly so it may seem like obsession to some but my points take me very little time to create. Having watched Lincecum and Webb pitch all season I feel like I can make pretty accurate statements and arguments about his season. I do not claim expertise over the intricacies of every player or team in the game but when someone comes on here and says Lincecum struggled from overuse in his finish to the season I have to disagree since I have watched essentially all of his starts this season.

His velocity and movement have not deteriorated one bit and his deception and effectiveness honestly should not at this point be in question.

See, this is a much calmer, collected post

The rest of your posts have been coming off as defensive and stanthemanmusial like.

I completely see your points about Lincecum. He singlehandedly helped a team defeat me in the championships of my fantasy league. And he has also kept up with an incredible pace of having great stats, game in and game out.

The whole over pitching young arms debate needs to be tossed out when it comes to him, in my opinion. He knows his body, his mechanics and what it can do. He looks like the type of horse a team can lean on, to pitch a ton of innings every year (i'm thinking he may be throwing 250+ before we know it) with a ton of complete games and piles of strikeouts.

I just think that this year is once again a Johan Cy Young year. But it wouldn't upset me one bit if Lincecum won it over him.

 

[darocker80]

lincy and johan have to be in the top spot. i can't see one of the two ending third.

 

[fengzhang]

Why are we examining the last 5 starts? Any one pitcher is going to have a horrible stretch throughout the year.

Here's what CC Sabathia started with:
5ER, 4ER, 9ER, 9ER

We know about Webb and his horrible starts at the beginning of September.

If you look at Lincecum's last 5 starts: 1ER, 6ER, 3ER, 0ER, 1ER, I don't see how that signifies he ended poorly. Yes, he had 1 or 2 bad starts in the last two months. OMG!

As we've said many times already, the Cy Young is a full year award. So, let's examine the end of year stats for Johan Santana and Tim Lincecum:
Record: 18-5 vs. 16-7 (edge: Lincecum)
ERA: 2.62 vs. 2.53 (slight edge: Santana)
Strikeouts: 265 vs. 206 (edge: Lincecum)
Those are the Triple Crown categories. If you look at the other stats, BAA, WHIP, innings pitched, they're virtually even. What impresses me the most about Lincecum is the fact he only gave up 11 HR's this year (compared with 23 for Santana).

But the main reason I would give it to Lincecum this year is that he has been the best pitcher throughout the entire year. At NO POINT THIS YEAR, has his ERA been above 2.80. And the worst his record has been all year is 18-5 (78% winning percentage). Meanwhile, halfway through the year, Santana was 7-7 with a 3.01 ERA. He finished strong and had his best starts at the end of the year which is why I suspect we are a little biased towards him (what psychologists call "recall bias."). But, we need to remember that Lincecum, more so than Webb, Sabathia, or Santana, was great all year.

 

[soccerman034]

Why are we examining the last 5 starts? Any one pitcher is going to have a horrible stretch throughout the year.

Here's what CC Sabathia started with:
5ER, 4ER, 9ER, 9ER

We know about Webb and his horrible starts at the beginning of September.

If you look at Lincecum's last 5 starts: 1ER, 6ER, 3ER, 0ER, 1ER, I don't see how that signifies he ended poorly. Yes, he had 1 or 2 bad starts in the last two months. OMG!

As we've said many times already, the Cy Young is a full year award. So, let's examine the end of year stats for Johan Santana and Tim Lincecum:
Record: 18-5 vs. 16-7 (edge: Lincecum)
ERA: 2.62 vs. 2.53 (slight edge: Santana)
Strikeouts: 265 vs. 206 (edge: Lincecum)
Those are the Triple Crown categories. If you look at the other stats, BAA, WHIP, innings pitched, they're virtually even. What impresses me the most about Lincecum is the fact he only gave up 11 HR's this year (compared with 23 for Santana).

But the main reason I would give it to Lincecum this year is that he has been the best pitcher throughout the entire year. At NO POINT THIS YEAR, has his ERA been above 2.80. And the worst his record has been all year is 18-5 (78% winning percentage). Meanwhile, halfway through the year, Santana was 7-7 with a 3.01 ERA. He finished strong and had his best starts at the end of the year which is why I suspect we are a little biased towards him (what psychologists call "recall bias."). But, we need to remember that Lincecum, more so than Webb, Sabathia, or Santana, was great all year.

I find it funny that Lincecum guys have been down playing wins all year, and they are now using it as a defense against Johan :lol:

Its close between Lincecum and Johan, but I have got to give it to Johan. ERA and IP are the most important statistics in the pitching world, and Johna leads Lincecum in both. I beleive he is also the only other pitcher with more than 200 SO. Johan actually pitched meaningful games down the stretch, and was the single reason why the Mets were even in the race at the end of the year, and I think that should count for something.

 

[Wes]

All of my statistics are fine. His last 5 starts not including today he had an ERA over 4. Including todays game, he has an ERA of 3.7 over his last 6, which is a full run over his season average. That is struggling to me, but apparently not to you because you want Lincecum to win. Instead of struggling, how about inconsistent? Does that suit you better. Lincecum supporters have clung to statistics all year, but what argument does he have now except for SO? Johan leads him in the 2 most important area's in terms of pitching (ERA and IP), and compares with him when it comes to wins and SO; he also pitched his team into contention and single handedly kept them in the race down the stretch.

Any young pitcher, even with perfect mechanics, deteriorate when overused. Mark Prior had great mechanics, but as the IP piled up, his arm disentegrated. What happens when you over work a young player with a maximum effort delivery? The fact is, these last few weeks have been next to meaningless for the Giants, and the fact that they have allowed him to consistently go over 100 pitches is appalling. Thats how you tell the difference between Lincecum homers and Giants fans; Lincecum supporters want him to pitch a complete game every night, and Giants fans cringe at that thought....they want to have him intact when they are playoff contenders, not while they are at the bottom of the league.

Struggling to you is simply small sample size to me. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of that I have no problem. Numerous times this year he has had six start stints where his ERA has been a run lower than his season average and numerous times a run over. I would say this is pretty much true of any pitcher.

You say that Johan leads in the two most important, but last time I checked the triple crown of pitching is Wins, ERA, and strikeouts, which Lincecum leads 2/3 over Santana and 2/3 over Webb. I agree with you that Santana has been outstanding pitching his team into contention but the fact is they aren't in the playoffs and he has seven losses. The Giants aren't in the playoffs and Lincecum has five losses. Yes Santana pitched in what could be considered more of a playoff atmosphere, but unlike the MVP the Cy Young is simply a best pitcher award, not a value based award that takes into account playoffs and or contention.

We'll again have to disagree about Prior, you may think he had great mechanics but I am in the boat of his mechanics looking perhaps text book but in fact placing a great deal of stress with his cross body delivery. He was very much an arm momentum generating pitcher as opposed to Lincecum who is a body momentum generating pitcher. Being a pitcher myself I can tell you from experience that it is tougher at least for me to pitch with effectiveness with a Prior-like slow leg delivery as opposed to a driving twisting delivery like Lincecum. However I have no scientific proof that Prior's mechanics aren't "great" as you said. So like I said we'll disagree on that point.

I see your points about overuse but do you honestly think that his last couple of starts this season are going to affect him in three years? He has all this offseason to recover physically and I would think that next season would have much more of an impact on his health than this year three or four years down the road when San Francisco is in contention.

 

[Wes]

I find it funny that Lincecum guys have been down playing wins all year, and they are now using it as a defense against Johan :lol:

Its close between Lincecum and Johan, but I have got to give it to Johan. ERA and IP are the most important statistics in the pitching world, and Johna leads Lincecum in both. I beleive he is also the only other pitcher with more than 200 SO. Johan actually pitched meaningful games down the stretch, and was the single reason why the Mets were even in the race at the end of the year, and I think that should count for something.

It is close and Johan is definitely in the mix. However its not so much that wins were being downplayed and now used against Johan, it is more like win percentage. Everyone who has watched either pitcher knows that both have had a significant amount of starts blown by the pen, I think something like 7 or 8 each.

Yes Johan has over 200 k's but he has nearly 50 less or 25% less, a HUGE number if you really think about it. Imagine if Johan was 25% behind Lincecum in another catagory, his ERA would be over 3, his win total would be 12. 25% behind in a category is significant.

 

[soccerman034]

All of my statistics are fine. His last 5 starts not including today he had an ERA over 4. Including todays game, he has an ERA of 3.7 over his last 6, which is a full run over his season average. That is struggling to me, but apparently not to you because you want Lincecum to win. Instead of struggling, how about inconsistent? Does that suit you better. Lincecum supporters have clung to statistics all year, but what argument does he have now except for SO? Johan leads him in the 2 most important area's in terms of pitching (ERA and IP), and compares with him when it comes to wins and SO; he also pitched his team into contention and single handedly kept them in the race down the stretch.

Any young pitcher, even with perfect mechanics, deteriorate when overused. Mark Prior had great mechanics, but as the IP piled up, his arm disentegrated. What happens when you over work a young player with a maximum effort delivery? The fact is, these last few weeks have been next to meaningless for the Giants, and the fact that they have allowed him to consistently go over 100 pitches is appalling. Thats how you tell the difference between Lincecum homers and Giants fans; Lincecum supporters want him to pitch a complete game every night, and Giants fans cringe at that thought....they want to have him intact when they are playoff contenders, not while they are at the bottom of the league.

Struggling to you is simply small sample size to me. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of that I have no problem. Numerous times this year he has had six start stints where his ERA has been a run lower than his season average and numerous times a run over. I would say this is pretty much true of any pitcher.

You say that Johan leads in the two most important, but last time I checked the triple crown of pitching is Wins, ERA, and strikeouts, which Lincecum leads 2/3 over Santana and 2/3 over Webb. I agree with you that Santana has been outstanding pitching his team into contention but the fact is they aren't in the playoffs and he has seven losses. The Giants aren't in the playoffs and Lincecum has five losses. Yes Santana pitched in what could be considered more of a playoff atmosphere, but unlike the MVP the Cy Young is simply a best pitcher award, not a value based award that takes into account playoffs and or contention.

We'll again have to disagree about Prior, you may think he had great mechanics but I am in the boat of his mechanics looking perhaps text book but in fact placing a great deal of stress with his cross body delivery. He was very much an arm momentum generating pitcher as opposed to Lincecum who is a body momentum generating pitcher. Being a pitcher myself I can tell you from experience that it is tougher at least for me to pitch with effectiveness with a Prior-like slow leg delivery as opposed to a driving twisting delivery like Lincecum. However I have no scientific proof that Prior's mechanics aren't "great" as you said. So like I said we'll disagree on that point.

I see your points about overuse but do you honestly think that his last couple of starts this season are going to affect him in three years? He has all this offseason to recover physically and I would think that next season would have much more of an impact on his health than this year three or four years down the road when San Francisco is in contention.

As to your first point, regardless of what people thing the "triple crown" of pitching is, IP and ERA are the most important by far. ERA evaluates success, and IP evaluates longevity and effectiveness throughout the season. I will agree to disagree on this point, but in my book, Johan gets it.

As for the arm thing, yes, I think his overuse at the end of the season will eventually affect him if the overuse continues, but that is just my take. A guy with his delivery and mechanics should not be a 100-120 pitch guy every night; even without overuse I think his arm will deteriorate within 5-10 years due to his mechanics alone. Again, I hope he doesn't as he is a phenomenal talent, but I think thats whats going to happen.

 

[Wes]

All of my statistics are fine. His last 5 starts not including today he had an ERA over 4. Including todays game, he has an ERA of 3.7 over his last 6, which is a full run over his season average. That is struggling to me, but apparently not to you because you want Lincecum to win. Instead of struggling, how about inconsistent? Does that suit you better. Lincecum supporters have clung to statistics all year, but what argument does he have now except for SO? Johan leads him in the 2 most important area's in terms of pitching (ERA and IP), and compares with him when it comes to wins and SO; he also pitched his team into contention and single handedly kept them in the race down the stretch.

Any young pitcher, even with perfect mechanics, deteriorate when overused. Mark Prior had great mechanics, but as the IP piled up, his arm disentegrated. What happens when you over work a young player with a maximum effort delivery? The fact is, these last few weeks have been next to meaningless for the Giants, and the fact that they have allowed him to consistently go over 100 pitches is appalling. Thats how you tell the difference between Lincecum homers and Giants fans; Lincecum supporters want him to pitch a complete game every night, and Giants fans cringe at that thought....they want to have him intact when they are playoff contenders, not while they are at the bottom of the league.

Struggling to you is simply small sample size to me. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of that I have no problem. Numerous times this year he has had six start stints where his ERA has been a run lower than his season average and numerous times a run over. I would say this is pretty much true of any pitcher.

You say that Johan leads in the two most important, but last time I checked the triple crown of pitching is Wins, ERA, and strikeouts, which Lincecum leads 2/3 over Santana and 2/3 over Webb. I agree with you that Santana has been outstanding pitching his team into contention but the fact is they aren't in the playoffs and he has seven losses. The Giants aren't in the playoffs and Lincecum has five losses. Yes Santana pitched in what could be considered more of a playoff atmosphere, but unlike the MVP the Cy Young is simply a best pitcher award, not a value based award that takes into account playoffs and or contention.

We'll again have to disagree about Prior, you may think he had great mechanics but I am in the boat of his mechanics looking perhaps text book but in fact placing a great deal of stress with his cross body delivery. He was very much an arm momentum generating pitcher as opposed to Lincecum who is a body momentum generating pitcher. Being a pitcher myself I can tell you from experience that it is tougher at least for me to pitch with effectiveness with a Prior-like slow leg delivery as opposed to a driving twisting delivery like Lincecum. However I have no scientific proof that Prior's mechanics aren't "great" as you said. So like I said we'll disagree on that point.

I see your points about overuse but do you honestly think that his last couple of starts this season are going to affect him in three years? He has all this offseason to recover physically and I would think that next season would have much more of an impact on his health than this year three or four years down the road when San Francisco is in contention.

As to your first point, regardless of what people thing the "triple crown" of pitching is, IP and ERA are the most important by far. ERA evaluates success, and IP evaluates longevity and effectiveness throughout the season. I will agree to disagree on this point, but in my book, Johan gets it.

As for the arm thing, yes, I think his overuse at the end of the season will eventually affect him if the overuse continues, but that is just my take. A guy with his delivery and mechanics should not be a 100-120 pitch guy every night; even without overuse I think his arm will deteriorate within 5-10 years due to his mechanics alone. Again, I hope he doesn't as he is a phenomenal talent, but I think thats whats going to happen.

Another thing that should be included in any discussion of overuse is the way that he pitches. Not his delivery but rather his pitch selection. Throwing fastballs and changeups are easier on an arm then curveballs, sliders and splitters. That I think is something we can all agree on. He threw a ton of curveballs last year as it was his most reliable pitch but really has thrown a very high percentage of fastballs this season followed secondly by his changeup which has moved ahead of his curveball as the season has gone on. I think this is another thing that will help his health as his career goes on. 120 pitches with say 90 fastballs is easier on his arm than say 100 pitches with 60 fastballs.

 

[soccerman034]

All of my statistics are fine. His last 5 starts not including today he had an ERA over 4. Including todays game, he has an ERA of 3.7 over his last 6, which is a full run over his season average. That is struggling to me, but apparently not to you because you want Lincecum to win. Instead of struggling, how about inconsistent? Does that suit you better. Lincecum supporters have clung to statistics all year, but what argument does he have now except for SO? Johan leads him in the 2 most important area's in terms of pitching (ERA and IP), and compares with him when it comes to wins and SO; he also pitched his team into contention and single handedly kept them in the race down the stretch.

Any young pitcher, even with perfect mechanics, deteriorate when overused. Mark Prior had great mechanics, but as the IP piled up, his arm disentegrated. What happens when you over work a young player with a maximum effort delivery? The fact is, these last few weeks have been next to meaningless for the Giants, and the fact that they have allowed him to consistently go over 100 pitches is appalling. Thats how you tell the difference between Lincecum homers and Giants fans; Lincecum supporters want him to pitch a complete game every night, and Giants fans cringe at that thought....they want to have him intact when they are playoff contenders, not while they are at the bottom of the league.

Struggling to you is simply small sample size to me. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of that I have no problem. Numerous times this year he has had six start stints where his ERA has been a run lower than his season average and numerous times a run over. I would say this is pretty much true of any pitcher.

You say that Johan leads in the two most important, but last time I checked the triple crown of pitching is Wins, ERA, and strikeouts, which Lincecum leads 2/3 over Santana and 2/3 over Webb. I agree with you that Santana has been outstanding pitching his team into contention but the fact is they aren't in the playoffs and he has seven losses. The Giants aren't in the playoffs and Lincecum has five losses. Yes Santana pitched in what could be considered more of a playoff atmosphere, but unlike the MVP the Cy Young is simply a best pitcher award, not a value based award that takes into account playoffs and or contention.

We'll again have to disagree about Prior, you may think he had great mechanics but I am in the boat of his mechanics looking perhaps text book but in fact placing a great deal of stress with his cross body delivery. He was very much an arm momentum generating pitcher as opposed to Lincecum who is a body momentum generating pitcher. Being a pitcher myself I can tell you from experience that it is tougher at least for me to pitch with effectiveness with a Prior-like slow leg delivery as opposed to a driving twisting delivery like Lincecum. However I have no scientific proof that Prior's mechanics aren't "great" as you said. So like I said we'll disagree on that point.

I see your points about overuse but do you honestly think that his last couple of starts this season are going to affect him in three years? He has all this offseason to recover physically and I would think that next season would have much more of an impact on his health than this year three or four years down the road when San Francisco is in contention.

As to your first point, regardless of what people thing the "triple crown" of pitching is, IP and ERA are the most important by far. ERA evaluates success, and IP evaluates longevity and effectiveness throughout the season. I will agree to disagree on this point, but in my book, Johan gets it.

As for the arm thing, yes, I think his overuse at the end of the season will eventually affect him if the overuse continues, but that is just my take. A guy with his delivery and mechanics should not be a 100-120 pitch guy every night; even without overuse I think his arm will deteriorate within 5-10 years due to his mechanics alone. Again, I hope he doesn't as he is a phenomenal talent, but I think thats whats going to happen.

Another thing that should be included in any discussion of overuse is the way that he pitches. Not his delivery but rather his pitch selection. Throwing fastballs and changeups are easier on an arm then curveballs, sliders and splitters. That I think is something we can all agree on. He threw a ton of curveballs last year as it was his most reliable pitch but really has thrown a very high percentage of fastballs this season followed secondly by his changeup which has moved ahead of his curveball as the season has gone on. I think this is another thing that will help his health as his career goes on. 120 pitches with say 90 fastballs is easier on his arm than say 100 pitches with 60 fastballs.

His curveball might be his best pitcher, so I don't think he will stop using it any time soon.

 

[Wes]

All of my statistics are fine. His last 5 starts not including today he had an ERA over 4. Including todays game, he has an ERA of 3.7 over his last 6, which is a full run over his season average. That is struggling to me, but apparently not to you because you want Lincecum to win. Instead of struggling, how about inconsistent? Does that suit you better. Lincecum supporters have clung to statistics all year, but what argument does he have now except for SO? Johan leads him in the 2 most important area's in terms of pitching (ERA and IP), and compares with him when it comes to wins and SO; he also pitched his team into contention and single handedly kept them in the race down the stretch.

Any young pitcher, even with perfect mechanics, deteriorate when overused. Mark Prior had great mechanics, but as the IP piled up, his arm disentegrated. What happens when you over work a young player with a maximum effort delivery? The fact is, these last few weeks have been next to meaningless for the Giants, and the fact that they have allowed him to consistently go over 100 pitches is appalling. Thats how you tell the difference between Lincecum homers and Giants fans; Lincecum supporters want him to pitch a complete game every night, and Giants fans cringe at that thought....they want to have him intact when they are playoff contenders, not while they are at the bottom of the league.

Struggling to you is simply small sample size to me. We can agree to disagree on the semantics of that I have no problem. Numerous times this year he has had six start stints where his ERA has been a run lower than his season average and numerous times a run over. I would say this is pretty much true of any pitcher.

You say that Johan leads in the two most important, but last time I checked the triple crown of pitching is Wins, ERA, and strikeouts, which Lincecum leads 2/3 over Santana and 2/3 over Webb. I agree with you that Santana has been outstanding pitching his team into contention but the fact is they aren't in the playoffs and he has seven losses. The Giants aren't in the playoffs and Lincecum has five losses. Yes Santana pitched in what could be considered more of a playoff atmosphere, but unlike the MVP the Cy Young is simply a best pitcher award, not a value based award that takes into account playoffs and or contention.

We'll again have to disagree about Prior, you may think he had great mechanics but I am in the boat of his mechanics looking perhaps text book but in fact placing a great deal of stress with his cross body delivery. He was very much an arm momentum generating pitcher as opposed to Lincecum who is a body momentum generating pitcher. Being a pitcher myself I can tell you from experience that it is tougher at least for me to pitch with effectiveness with a Prior-like slow leg delivery as opposed to a driving twisting delivery like Lincecum. However I have no scientific proof that Prior's mechanics aren't "great" as you said. So like I said we'll disagree on that point.

I see your points about overuse but do you honestly think that his last couple of starts this season are going to affect him in three years? He has all this offseason to recover physically and I would think that next season would have much more of an impact on his health than this year three or four years down the road when San Francisco is in contention.

As to your first point, regardless of what people thing the "triple crown" of pitching is, IP and ERA are the most important by far. ERA evaluates success, and IP evaluates longevity and effectiveness throughout the season. I will agree to disagree on this point, but in my book, Johan gets it.

As for the arm thing, yes, I think his overuse at the end of the season will eventually affect him if the overuse continues, but that is just my take. A guy with his delivery and mechanics should not be a 100-120 pitch guy every night; even without overuse I think his arm will deteriorate within 5-10 years due to his mechanics alone. Again, I hope he doesn't as he is a phenomenal talent, but I think thats whats going to happen.

Another thing that should be included in any discussion of overuse is the way that he pitches. Not his delivery but rather his pitch selection. Throwing fastballs and changeups are easier on an arm then curveballs, sliders and splitters. That I think is something we can all agree on. He threw a ton of curveballs last year as it was his most reliable pitch but really has thrown a very high percentage of fastballs this season followed secondly by his changeup which has moved ahead of his curveball as the season has gone on. I think this is another thing that will help his health as his career goes on. 120 pitches with say 90 fastballs is easier on his arm than say 100 pitches with 60 fastballs.

His curveball might be his best pitcher, so I don't think he will stop using it any time soon.

It's nasty no question, but having seen probably 30 of his starts this year he has really started to feature the changeup as his elite strikeout pitch behind the fastball. I don't think he will or should stop using the curve, He just won't abuse it like he did when he first came up, sort of like Francisco Liriano and his devastating slider.

 

[hive17]

The theme I noticed over the length of this thread is that arguements that are used against CC are alos being used to both defend and attack Lincecum and Santana.

I voted for CC b/c I believe that the only reason you can't vote for him is that you've got a "rule" in your head that says his time in the NL is what's hurting him. If that's the case, you are basically admitting that yes, he is the best, but I'm not going to vote for him b/c of this "rule" I've made up. Some of you think that there is indeed a rule that says either there is a "residency" rule for winning a League's awards or that the award is for the entire year. If someone can show me an official rule that says the CY YOUNG is indeed for the whole season, I retract. Otherwise, that "whole year" arguement can be used against, say, Ryan Howard, b/c of the slow start he had, even though he is the biggest reason Philly pulled it together and got to the playoffs.

Back to Johan and Timmy: If you're gonna say Johan, then you're saying that it's basically his second half (what he's classically known for) that gives him the edge, including the "high pressure" playoff race that he performed so well in. Um, CC was better over the same period. If you're chosing Johan over CC, your saying that the CY YOUNG is a guy who had an average first half and a great second half, but he was lucky enough to have that average first half in the league the award is for...? Word?

As for CC vs. Timmy; well, I don't know. There is the "pressure" issue that falls in CC's favor in a big way. And the last three starts he put out, the workload that he took on, that is epic. Lets face it, they both pitched well against inferior opponents, but the NL Central was better than the West, and in the case of the Leagues scrubbs, CC has CG shut-outs that Timmy doesn't have.

But Timmy has indeed been stellar all year, and I won't raise a word of protest if he wins. I just think that these awards should go to teams that got the wins and to the guys on those teams that were the biggest parts of them.

 

[fengzhang]

The theme I noticed over the length of this thread is that arguements that are used against CC are alos being used to both defend and attack Lincecum and Santana.

I voted for CC b/c I believe that the only reason you can't vote for him is that you've got a "rule" in your head that says his time in the NL is what's hurting him. If that's the case, you are basically admitting that yes, he is the best, but I'm not going to vote for him b/c of this "rule" I've made up. Some of you think that there is indeed a rule that says either there is a "residency" rule for winning a League's awards or that the award is for the entire year. If someone can show me an official rule that says the CY YOUNG is indeed for the whole season, I retract. Otherwise, that "whole year" arguement can be used against, say, Ryan Howard, b/c of the slow start he had, even though he is the biggest reason Philly pulled it together and got to the playoffs.

Back to Johan and Timmy: If you're gonna say Johan, then you're saying that it's basically his second half (what he's classically known for) that gives him the edge, including the "high pressure" playoff race that he performed so well in. Um, CC was better over the same period. If you're chosing Johan over CC, your saying that the CY YOUNG is a guy who had an average first half and a great second half, but he was lucky enough to have that average first half in the league the award is for...? Word?

As for CC vs. Timmy; well, I don't know. There is the "pressure" issue that falls in CC's favor in a big way. And the last three starts he put out, the workload that he took on, that is epic. Lets face it, they both pitched well against inferior opponents, but the NL Central was better than the West, and in the case of the Leagues scrubbs, CC has CG shut-outs that Timmy doesn't have.

But Timmy has indeed been stellar all year, and I won't raise a word of protest if he wins. I just think that these awards should go to teams that got the wins and to the guys on those teams that were the biggest parts of them.

I don't think the guidelines for MVP and Cy Young are terribly specific which is why there is so much debate and confusion in the first place. However, from past voting patterns, it appears that the MVP is the one given to the most valuable team player. This means that how the team plays down the stretch, how the player plays down the stretch, and whether the team makes the playoffs are taken into account. This is why Miguel Tejada was able to win the MVP over Arod. By this definition, CC Sabathia is a much valuable pitcher down the stretch than Tim Lincecum since he was better in the second half, his team was better, and his team made the playoffs.

However, the Cy Young, based on how it was voted in the past, seems to be more stats-oriented and less context oriented. So, even disregarding consistency, first half vs. second half, AL vs. NL and all that other stuff, if you simply go by the numbers they have at the end of the year, Lincecum is slightly better (in ERA, SO, and wins-the triple crown categories). In other words, he has better pitching stats. That's why I think Lincecum is more likely to win the Cy Young than Sabathia.

Fair or not, I do think voters hold players who were traded in the middle of the season to higher standards. Their reasoning is that if we were to award the NL Cy Young to you and you've only made 15 NL starts, you better be REALLY good in those NL starts and your end of the year numbers better be REALLY good. That's why I think Ramirez and Sabathia will get fewer votes than they deserve.

 

[Frow]

I don't know if this was brought up, but I thought it was kind of cool


C.C. Sabathia is tied for the lead in shutouts.......in BOTH leagues

 

[Wes]

The theme I noticed over the length of this thread is that arguements that are used against CC are alos being used to both defend and attack Lincecum and Santana.

I voted for CC b/c I believe that the only reason you can't vote for him is that you've got a "rule" in your head that says his time in the NL is what's hurting him. If that's the case, you are basically admitting that yes, he is the best, but I'm not going to vote for him b/c of this "rule" I've made up. Some of you think that there is indeed a rule that says either there is a "residency" rule for winning a League's awards or that the award is for the entire year. If someone can show me an official rule that says the CY YOUNG is indeed for the whole season, I retract. Otherwise, that "whole year" arguement can be used against, say, Ryan Howard, b/c of the slow start he had, even though he is the biggest reason Philly pulled it together and got to the playoffs.

Back to Johan and Timmy: If you're gonna say Johan, then you're saying that it's basically his second half (what he's classically known for) that gives him the edge, including the "high pressure" playoff race that he performed so well in. Um, CC was better over the same period. If you're chosing Johan over CC, your saying that the CY YOUNG is a guy who had an average first half and a great second half, but he was lucky enough to have that average first half in the league the award is for...? Word?

As for CC vs. Timmy; well, I don't know. There is the "pressure" issue that falls in CC's favor in a big way. And the last three starts he put out, the workload that he took on, that is epic. Lets face it, they both pitched well against inferior opponents, but the NL Central was better than the West, and in the case of the Leagues scrubbs, CC has CG shut-outs that Timmy doesn't have.

But Timmy has indeed been stellar all year, and I won't raise a word of protest if he wins. I just think that these awards should go to teams that got the wins and to the guys on those teams that were the biggest parts of them.

Hm, it never occurred to me that it wasn't a full season award. I'll have to do some checking.

 

[Brad]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

 

[darocker80]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

MVP yes. Cy young i don't know. I would want his AL stats in the mix if getting consideration.

 

[beefycheddar]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

MVP yes. Cy young i don't know. I would want his AL stats in the mix if getting consideration.

That doesn't really make sense since it's the NL Cy Young Award.

 

[Brad]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

MVP yes. Cy young i don't know. I would want his AL stats in the mix if getting consideration.

That doesn't really make sense since it's the NL Cy Young Award.

Agreed. He had to face the DH in the AL compared to a pitcher.

 

[Wes]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

MVP yes. Cy young i don't know. I would want his AL stats in the mix if getting consideration.

That doesn't really make sense since it's the NL Cy Young Award.

Seems like a double standard to give him increased accolades for basically a half season stretch. If the award were voted on like that other pitchers could likely have stretches of dominance that would match it, Webb and Lincecum both started out just as dominant as Sabathia finished.

 

[fengzhang]

CC gets my vote. He has been pitching big this second half and in the wild card race. In his last 3 starts on 3 days rest, he only has 2 ER in 21.2 IP. He helped to carry the Brewers to the post season and was dominant.

MVP yes. Cy young i don't know. I would want his AL stats in the mix if getting consideration.

That doesn't really make sense since it's the NL Cy Young Award.

I think we've already been over this. If you want to disregard his AL stats, then there's no way he has enough wins, strikeouts, or anything in the NL (except ERA) to warrant Cy Young consideration. When was the last time a starter won the Cy Young with 10 wins?