Congratulations Mr Beltre

[homerun28aa]

One of only three 3rd basemen in the history of the game to have 2,500+ hits with 400+ homeruns... and on TOP of that he has the second best defensive WAR for 3rd basemen in the history of the game. But really, what has he done other than lead the league in homeruns, hits and doubles all in different seasons and have two top-five MVP finishes. This guy needs to step up his game.

Read your post. Two top 5 MVP finishes, lead the league in doubles 1 season, HRs 1 season, and tied for hits 1 season - out of 18 seasons in the MLB that screams HOF to you? That's a joke.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

Santo is ranked 59th all-time in defensive WAR for 3rd basemen. Beltre is 2nd behind Brooks Robinson. But please, tell me more about Santo's Gold Gloves and All-Star appearances.

If you don't think those 2 players had similar careers , we just disagree. If you think being second of defensive war for 3rd base gets Beltre in right now , we disagree.

Ryan

 

[homerun28aa]

How does this read to you?

The same as most of your other contributions on here.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Read your post. Two top 5 MVP finishes, lead the league in doubles 1 season, HRs 1 season, and tied for hits 1 season - out of 18 seasons in the MLB that screams HOF to you? That's a joke.

I didn't say it screams Hall of Fame. What screams Hall of Fame is his statistical achievements as compared to his contemporaries at the third base position. Being one of the best offensive AND defensive 3rd basemen in the game's history pretty much speaks for itself. He'll more than likely join Brett and Boggs as the only true 3rd basemen to have 3,000+ hits, most likely end up 3rd or 4th all time-time in homeruns for 3rd basemen and end his career second to only Brooks Robinson in 3rd basemen defensive WAR. THAT'S what screams HOF to me. If you want to stare in awe at the list of most All-Star Game appearances, go right ahead.

 

[WCTYSON]

And needing to obtain 75% isn't easy if you don't have something that standouts.

This is where we differ for sure. Beltre's numbers do standout, like a slap to the face. His induction is not going to be based on one single milestone reached or not, it is the totality of his performance.

 

[homerun28aa]

I didn't say it screams Hall of Fame. What screams Hall of Fame is his statistical achievements as compared to his contemporaries at the third base position. Being one of the best offensive AND defensive 3rd basemen in the game's history pretty much speaks for itself. He'll more than likely join Brett and Boggs as the only true 3rd basemen to have 3,000+ hits, most likely end up 3rd or 4th all time-time in homeruns for 3rd basemen and end his career second to only Brooks Robinson in 3rd basemen defensive WAR. THAT'S what screams HOF to me. If you want to stare in awe at the list of most All-Star Game appearances, go right ahead.

If all those things happen, ASG appearances won't matter. And if that happens, he'll be a HOFer - until then he's a solidly productive player who never dominated neither in hitting, nor in fielding, nor did he dominate the league in anything in a single year (top 5 MVP finishes are a joke when adding HOF to that sentence), nor did he help his team go on postseason runs. Beltre if he retired tomorrow would be the classic example of hall of very good, if he gets where you think he's going he'll be a HOFer.

 

[WCTYSON]

The same as most of your other contributions on here.

 

[sportscardtheory]

(top 5 MVP finishes are a joke when adding HOF to that sentence)

This literally made me laugh out loud knowing that it came from the same person who touts All-Star Game appearances as meaningful.

 

[homerun28aa]

This literally made me laugh out loud knowing that it came from the same person who touts All-Star Game appearances as meaningful.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_asgame.shtml

Now maybe you can show me a list of guys who had a couple top 5 MVP appearances and how many of them are in the HOF.

 

[WCTYSON]

All-Star game appearances. lol Oh boy.

Don't bother, some people prefer to go by subjective accolades.

If all those things happen, ASG appearances won't matter. And if that happens, he'll be a HOFer - until then he's a solidly productive player who never dominated neither in hitting, nor in fielding, nor did he dominate the league in anything in a single year (top 5 MVP finishes are a joke when adding HOF to that sentence), nor did he help his team go on postseason runs. Beltre if he retired tomorrow would be the classic example of hall of very good, if he gets where you think he's going he'll be a HOFer.

I tried to warn you.

 

[sportscardtheory]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_most_asgame.shtml

Now maybe you can show me a list of guys who had a couple top 5 MVP appearances and how many of them are in the HOF.

AAAND, which do you think a player would rather have, an All-Star game appearance or a top-5 MVP vote. I know which one I would rather have. Your boy Ted Williams was an All-Star 17 times and finished top-five in MVP voting 9 times. Which is a more exclusive club. You tell me.

 

[homerun28aa]

AAAND, which do you think a player would rather have, an All-Star game appearance or a top-5 MVP vote. I know which one I would rather have. Your boy Ted Williams was an All-Star 17 times and finished top-five in MVP voting 9 times. Which is a more exclusive club. You tell me.

ASG appearances have a direct correlation with whether or not you have dominated the league in your time which has a direct correlation to the HOF. Being TOP FIVE in MVP voting twice in an 18 year season means you were a top 5 player two out of your 18 years, where exactly does that fit into the HOF discussion?

 

[sportscardtheory]

ASG appearances have a direct correlation with whether or not you have dominated the league in your time which has a direct correlation to the HOF. Being TOP FIVE in MVP voting twice in an 18 year season means you were a top 5 player two out of your 18 years, where exactly does that fit into the HOF discussion?

Because most players don't get ANY MVP votes, let alone top-5 MVP votes. I also didn't say he deserves to make the Hall BECAUSE of his two top-5 MVP votes, I just mentioned it because it's something. It's one small addition to the the many reasons that I think he's a HOFer.

 

[homerun28aa]

Because most players don't get ANY MVP votes, let alone top-5 MVP votes. I also didn't say he deserves to make the Hall BECAUSE of his two top-5 MVP votes, I just mentioned it because it's something. It's one small addition to the the many reasons that I think he's a HOFer.

Ok, most players don't get any MVP votes and most players are not considered for the HOF - your point? Your reasons are based off of what you speculate he'll accomplish at the end of his career, my reasoning is his current stats. If he amounts 3,000 hits he'll also be near around 450 HR's - at that point he'll be elected eventually maybe sooner rather than later but in the first 10 years comfortably. He won't be a first ballot HOFer by any means obviously but eventually he'll get in.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Ok, most players don't get any MVP votes and most players are not considered for the HOF - your point? Your reasons are based off of what you speculate he'll accomplish at the end of his career, my reasoning is his current stats. If he amounts 3,000 hits he'll also be near around 450 HR's - at that point he'll be elected eventually maybe sooner rather than later but in the first 10 years comfortably. He won't be a first ballot HOFer by any means obviously but eventually he'll get in.

Why argue against a reasonable speculation. I can see if people were saying he will get 3,500 hits and 550 homeruns, but you are arguing against people speculating that he will most likely play 2 more seasons after this one, get just over 3,000 hits with around 450 HRs with 1,500+ RBI. At his position, he will have the 2nd most defensive WAR, second only to the greatest defensive 3rd baseman to ever play the game, and that is a certainty. I guess I just don't get why the arguing over something even YOU know will most likely happen. I never even said he would be 1st ballot even WITH 3,000+ hits. I said he would have to wait like Biggio, so I guess I don't know what your angle is.

 

[homerun28aa]

Why argue against a reasonable speculation. I can see if people were saying he will get 3,500 hits and 550 homeruns, but you are arguing against people speculating that he will most likely play 2 more seasons after this one, get just over 3,000 hits with around 450 HRs with 1,500+ RBI. At his position, he will have the 2nd most defensive WAR, second only to the greatest defensive 3rd baseman to ever play the game, and that is a certainty. I guess I just don't get why the arguing over something even YOU know will most likely happen. I never even said he would be 1st ballot even WITH 3,000+ hits. I said he would have to wait like Biggio, so I guess I don't know what your angle is.

My angle couldn't be simpler, if he retires tomorrow with the stats he amassed now he'll be someone who is on the ballot for his entire 15 year eligibility but will not get in. I don't believe he would ever get in via the Veteran's Committee either but that's obviously all completely speculative. If he does put up the kind of numbers you're suggesting he does, then he'll get into the HOF - I don't think as quick as Biggio but nonetheless I'd say eventually he gets in. To note, I was surprised Biggio got in as quickly as he did.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Just for posterity, here are the top-5 MVP vote finishes for all the Hall of Fame hitter inductees since 2000, along with actual MVP awards won and All-Star Game appearances.

Frank Thomas - 6 - 2 MVPs - 5 ASGs
Jim Rice - 6 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Eddie Murray - 6 - 0 MVP - 8 ASGs
Cal Ripken Jr. - 6 - 1 MVP - 19 ASGs
Andre Dawson - 3 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Rickey Henderson - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Ryne Sandberg - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Dave Winfield - 3 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Kirby Puckett - 3 - 0 MVP - 10 ASGs
Craig Biggio - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Roberto Alomar - 2 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Paul Molitor - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Gary Carter - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Carlton Fisk - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Barry Larkin - 1 - 1 MVP - 12 ASGs
Tony Gwynn - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Wade Boggs - 1 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Ozzie Smith - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Tony Perez - 1 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs

199 All-Star Game appearances between the last 19 Hall of Fame hitters and only 54 top-5 MVP vote finishes. Just some interesting info.

 

[homerun28aa]

Just for posterity, here are the top-5 MVP vote finishes for the all the Hall of Fame hitter inductees since 2000.

Frank Thomas - 6 - 2 MVPs - 5 ASGs
Jim Rice - 6 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Eddie Murray - 6 - 0 MVP - 8 ASGs
Cal Ripken Jr. - 6 - 1 MVP - 19 ASGs
Andre Dawson - 3 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Rickey Henderson - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Ryne Sandberg - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Dave Winfield - 3 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Kirby Puckett - 3 - 0 MVP - 10 ASGs
Craig Biggio - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Roberto Alomar - 2 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Paul Molitor - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Gary Carter - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Carlton Fisk - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Barry Larkin - 1 - 1 MVP - 12 ASGs
Tony Gwynn - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Wade Boggs - 1 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Ozzie Smith - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Tony Perez - 1 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs

199 All-Star Game appearances between the last 19 Hall of Fame hitters and only 54 top-5 MVP vote finishes. Just some interesting info.

Not saying that the ASG appearances was the driving force behind their election, but there is a correlation and always has been. A guy like Tony Perez won 3 WS titles and made it as both a player and a manager - those are just things to consider. Beltre aside from his solid hitting and decent fielding unfortunately doesn't really have anything to put on his resume. A lot of it is luck - a guy like Jeter wound up being the captain for a dominant franchise, he was the face of baseball for awhile. He will get a higher first-ballot HOF election % than he deserves in my opinion because of those factors that you just don't see on baseball reference dot com.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Not saying that the ASG appearances was the driving force behind their election, but there is a correlation and always has been. A guy like Tony Perez won 3 WS titles and made it as both a player and a manager - those are just things to consider. Beltre aside from his solid hitting and decent fielding unfortunately doesn't really have anything to put on his resume. A lot of it is luck - a guy like Jeter wound up being the captain for a dominant franchise, he was the face of baseball for awhile. He will get a higher first-ballot HOF election % than he deserves in my opinion because of those factors that you just don't see on baseball reference dot com.

There is definitely a correlation. It is a popularity contest, pretty much. More ASG appearances can certainly give a player an edge in voting.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

Just for posterity, here are the top-5 MVP vote finishes for all the Hall of Fame hitter inductees since 2000, along with actual MVP awards won and All-Star Game appearances.

Frank Thomas - 6 - 2 MVPs - 5 ASGs
Jim Rice - 6 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Eddie Murray - 6 - 0 MVP - 8 ASGs
Cal Ripken Jr. - 6 - 1 MVP - 19 ASGs
Andre Dawson - 3 - 1 MVP - 8 ASGs
Rickey Henderson - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Ryne Sandberg - 3 - 1 MVP - 10 ASGs
Dave Winfield - 3 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Kirby Puckett - 3 - 0 MVP - 10 ASGs
Craig Biggio - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Roberto Alomar - 2 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Paul Molitor - 2 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs
Gary Carter - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Carlton Fisk - 2 - 0 MVP - 11 ASGs
Barry Larkin - 1 - 1 MVP - 12 ASGs
Tony Gwynn - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Wade Boggs - 1 - 0 MVP - 12 ASGs
Ozzie Smith - 1 - 0 MVP - 15 ASGs
Tony Perez - 1 - 0 MVP - 7 ASGs

199 All-Star Game appearances between the last 19 Hall of Fame hitters and only 54 top-5 MVP vote finishes. Just some interesting info.

And that would help the voters who aren't looking to put Beltre in. Beltres line would be 2-0-4. Which most above dwarf, or have a key number.

I am surprised Frank only made 5 ASGs. Seems crazy to me. I would of thought 10 or so.

Ryan