Curtis Granderson and the MVP award

[bigpapiMA32]

Hey guys,
I find RBIs to be a horrendous tool to judge a player's value (some players simply get more opportunities). So here is a stat I use to measure RBIs. I go here: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sorta ... id=1013928

This shows the percentage of runners on base that a given player drives in. But unfortunately it doesn't account for home runs, when a player drives himself in. So if you edit the stats to count a given player as a runner on base each time he hits a homer, you can find a truer RBI value.

For example:
Gonzalez, Adrian 92 RBI / (382+18) ROB = 23
Granderson, Curtis 94 / (333+33) = 25.7
Bautista, Jose 77 / (297+35) = 23.2
Ellsbury, Jacoby 78 / (288+22) = 25.2

Just something to think about, and remember that it only covers one aspect of the game.

 

[nosterbor]

would you rather have your player go 3 for 3 with the base's empty and no runs scored, or 1 for 4 and that one hit the base's were full?

 

[braden]

would you rather have your player go 3 for 3 with the base's empty and no runs scored, or 1 for 4 and that one hit the base's were full?

That is such a stupid strawman.

And yeah, I'd always take the guy who made zero outs over the guy who made three. It'll benefit me many times over in the long run.

 

[Topnotchsy]

would you rather have your player go 3 for 3 with the base's empty and no runs scored, or 1 for 4 and that one hit the base's were full?

You are assuming that when the hit happens is in some way in the hands of the player who is at bat. Most baseball statisticians believe that it is completely random so while it might be more of a benefit for a player to go 1-4 in a single game and knock in a few runs, over going 3-3 and not knocking in anyone or scoring, that will not last more than a game or two.

 

[markakis8]

Verlander dominant again. If he ends up with 22 wins he could get it

 

[RL24]

would you rather have your player go 3 for 3 with the base's empty and no runs scored, or 1 for 4 and that one hit the base's were full?

That is such a stupid strawman.

And yeah, I'd always take the guy who made zero outs over the guy who made three. It'll benefit me many times over in the long run.

I dunno, there are some guys out there who you can count on to get a hit when the bases are empty, and to choke when the bases are full. I mean, I know where you're coming from and all, it's just... you know, when that certain guy comes up and the game is on the line, and he's 3 for 3 on the night, but you already know when he stups up there he ain't gettin a hit?


I think it just has to do with my being unlucky, and projecting my back luck onto the players I cheer for. For example, I used to watch every 5th Indians game to see CC. V-Mart was the worst. He would go 0-4 or 0-5 like every time I watched. All I could do was scratch my head and try to figure out how his batting average was .335 on the year when he never got a hit?

Last year I had a stretch of Joba like that. He only blew a game here and there, but it always when CC was pitching. He had that great ERA, but that's only because most of the runs he allowed were CC's inherited runners.

 

[nborton]

Verlander dominant again. If he ends up with 22 wins he could get it

I know people don't like pitchers for MVP now, but it was a common occurrence in the past. Heck, even Willie Hernandez won it as a closer.

 

[Mudcatsfan]

If only these were auto'd.

 

[elmalo]

There is still a lot of baseball to be played. Granderson, Gonzalez, Verlander and a few others have legit shots. I think it may come down, betwen Granderson or Gonzalez, how they play down the stretch and who ultimately wins the division. If Granderson gets hot and the Yanks win the ast, or the othr way around.

 

[nborton]

If only these were auto'd.

Seriously. I wish.

He didn't get his first auto until much later. I think it was Topps Update that came first in 07. Either way it wasn't until 07 for any autos other than Just.

If it was auto'd this might be a $1,000+ card.

 

[D-Lite]

Currently

Granderson .282/.375/.595, 5.8 WAR
Gonzalez .346/.407/.543, 4.9 WAR

Grandy leading league in runs, RBI, triples, 2nd in HRs, 22 SB. Just got another hit too.

And regarding home/road splits, he's got 15 HR on road vs 19 at home, in 6 fewer games on the road. Not much of a park effect.

 

[Wes]

Currently

Granderson .282/.375/.595, 5.8 WAR
Gonzalez .346/.407/.543, 4.9 WAR

Grandy leading league in runs, RBI, triples, 2nd in HRs, 22 SB. Just got another hit too.

And regarding home/road splits, he's got 15 HR on road vs 19 at home, in 6 fewer games on the road. Not much of a park effect.

Bautista: .314/.453/.638 7.3 WAR
Pedroia: .309/.399/.477 7.0 WAR
Ellsbury: .313/.370/.518 6.5 WAR

I don't want to hear about team record, runs or RBI's - those statistics are primarily based on teammates and you can't penalize a guy who is on base more (applies to Bautista and all three Red Sox players) for not being driven in by their teammates. You also can't penalize them for not having as many runners on base when they get hits (RBI). And you certainly can't penalize someone for having crappy teammates.

 

[vwnut13]

I don't want to hear about team record, runs or RBI's - those statistics are primarily based on teammates and you can't penalize a guy who is on base more (applies to Bautista and all three Red Sox players) for not being driven in by their teammates. You also can't penalize them for not having as many runners on base when they get hits (RBI). And you certainly can't penalize someone for having crappy teammates.

Well, something must be up considering that all three of those Red Sox players bat in order at the top of the Red Sox lineup.

And you can penalize someone for not scoring runs. Why? If you can't run.

 

[Wes]

I don't want to hear about team record, runs or RBI's - those statistics are primarily based on teammates and you can't penalize a guy who is on base more (applies to Bautista and all three Red Sox players) for not being driven in by their teammates. You also can't penalize them for not having as many runners on base when they get hits (RBI). And you certainly can't penalize someone for having crappy teammates.

Well, something must be up considering that all three of those Red Sox players bat in order at the top of the Red Sox lineup.

And you can penalize someone for not scoring runs. Why? If you can't run.

The "something is up" is that those are three of the best players in baseball. No mystery there.

Unless Granderson is stealing home at an alarming rate his teammates are driving him in. Granderson is a top candidate, but is 5th out of the 5 discussed in the past few posts by all measures of individual effectiveness. RBI and Runs scored are no better a measure of a hitter's performance than Wins and Losses are of a pitcher's.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Does anyone realize that Jose Bautista is leading the entire Major Leagues in on-base percentage, slugging percentage and OPS? What Granderson is doing is great, but he's not nearly as dominant as Baustista is this season. RBIs and runs are more a product of what team you are on.

 

[vwnut13]

The "something is up" is that those are three of the best players in baseball. No mystery there.

Unless Granderson is stealing home at an alarming rate his teammates are driving him in. Granderson is a top candidate, but is 5th out of the 5 discussed in the past few posts by all measures of individual effectiveness. RBI and Runs scored are no better a measure of a hitter's performance than Wins and Losses are of a pitcher's.

Why is it that Granderson has driven in more runs than Gonzalez?

Gardner's OBP is 0.357 and Jeter's is 0.350.
Ellsbury's OBP is 0.370 and Pedroia's is 0.399.

It would seem that Gonzalez has more opportunities to drive in runs considering the players in front of him get on more often. And let's not forget that Granderson has driven in more runs with a .059 disadvantage in batting average.

With two of the top 4 MVP candidates behind Ellsbury why hasnt he scored a ton more runs?

 

[AndruwHRJones]

The "something is up" is that those are three of the best players in baseball. No mystery there.

Unless Granderson is stealing home at an alarming rate his teammates are driving him in. Granderson is a top candidate, but is 5th out of the 5 discussed in the past few posts by all measures of individual effectiveness. RBI and Runs scored are no better a measure of a hitter's performance than Wins and Losses are of a pitcher's.

Why is it that Granderson has driven in more runs than Gonzalez?

Gardner's OBP is 0.357 and Jeter's is 0.350.
Ellsbury's OBP is 0.370 and Pedroia's is 0.399.

It would seem that Gonzalez has more opportunities to drive in runs considering the players in front of him get on more often. And let's not forget that Granderson has driven in more runs with a .059 disadvantage in batting average.

With two of the top 4 MVP candidates behind Ellsbury why hasnt he scored a ton more runs?

You actually make the point for Gonzalez here, not Granderson. If you dig a little deeper into the actual stats, you will notice this:

With runners in scoring position:

Granderson = 128 at bats, .250 avg, 57 RBI
Gonzalez = 148 at bats, .345 avg, 70 RBI

So while Gonzalez has had more at bats, he is taking advantage of the opportunities probably as best as you can ask a player to do with a .345 avg. While Granderson is batting .250. So instead of asking why Granderson has more RBI's than Gonzalez, you should be asking yourself why Granderson doesn't have more than he has?

As for Ellsbury, he has scored 89 runs, 3rd best in the majors this year. While Granderson has a decent amount more, not sure how being 3rd in the majors is a negative?

 

[cowboysrule48]

If the Rays can someone sneak back into contention I think Zobrist has to be in the MVP discussion. I'm not biased...

 

[vwnut13]

Granderson ties Bautista with 35 HR.

This one was an Inside the Park HR.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Granderson ties Bautista with 35 HR.

This one was an Inside the Park HR.

Bautista re-takes the lead with 36 HRs.

This one went over the wall.