David Ortiz sets record for hits by a DH

[U L Washington Rookie]

The answer is ZERO. Edgar, Walker and Guerrero are the only three inactive, modern day players, with no ties to PEDs, not yet in the HOF, with career BAs over .310. The HOF isn't all about how many total hits and homeruns you have.

Be careful with this. Of his six or so best seasons, only one was prior to the age of 32.

Also, HoF isn't all about batting avg and OBP.

 

[nborton]

I don't know if Martinez will get in, but I do think DH needs to be given a chance. It's a legit position that has to be filled on every team in the AL. To me it's the same as a closer. Why vote them in when they are basically the pitching version of the DH?

If anything closers are less of a position than the DH. You don't have to use one if the starter goes all the way. Someone has to play the DH.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Be careful with this. Of his six or so best seasons, only one was prior to the age of 32.

Also, HoF isn't all about batting avg and OBP.

That's not ties, that's simply speculation. And I never said it was all about batting average and OBP.

 

[MansGame]

The answer is ZERO. Edgar, Walker and Guerrero are the only three inactive, modern day players, with no ties to PEDs, not yet in the HOF, with career BAs over .310. The HOF isn't all about how many total hits and homeruns you have.

Walker has never been linked? Really caught lightning in a bottle then in '97 don't you think? Probably just drank a lot of red bull that year

 

[elmalo]

The problem with the DH in the Hall of Fame argument is that the DH is compared to the best hitters at all positions. So you have to basically be one of the top hitters in all of baseball for a long time to get into the Hall. Frank Thomas I think would get into the Hall even if he spent his entire career at DH bc for a while there he was one of the dominant hitters in baseball. I think if Edgar Martinez were say a SS or 2B, there would be a much better shot of him getting in, bc compared to players of his era at those positions, he stats would stand out. However, when compared to all batters of his era, his stats fall short.

 

[muskiesfan]

I still don't understand arguments against a players position for the HOF. The designated hitter is a position. I understand that they only play half of the game, but it's not their fault. American League pitchers only play half of the game, but no one holds that against them. Same thing with closers. It's a position. Every team uses them. I'm sure a smart ass will bring up ball/bat boys, but the positions mention are in the box score. They get credited with counting numbers. They make contributions to their team.

The biggest problem is the writers. Those ******** suck. They love to look down their noses and take a holier than thou approach when voting. I think most of them are just pissed because they weren't good enough to play.

 

[MansGame]

I still don't understand arguments against a players position for the HOF. The designated hitter is a position. I understand that they only play half of the game, but it's not their fault. American League pitchers only play half of the game, but no one holds that against them. Same thing with closers. It's a position. Every team uses them. I'm sure a smart ass will bring up ball/bat boys, but the positions mention are in the box score. They get credited with counting numbers. They make contributions to their team.

The biggest problem is the writers. Those ******** suck. They love to look down their noses and take a holier than thou approach when voting. I think most of them are just pissed because they weren't good enough to play.

I'm playing devils advocate here but wouldn't you agree that if someone only played first base (for example) that he should be one of the best first basemens of all time or a number of gold gloves or at least have amazing fielding stats to get into the HOF? I think that's the argument most of the time with DH guys... is that their stats have to be that much better because alls they do is hit. I don't think many people are saying they shouldn't be in the HOF because it's not a position... but then again, maybe I'm wrong :lol:

 

[muskiesfan]

I'm playing devils advocate here but wouldn't you agree that if someone only played first base (for example) that he should be one of the best first basemens of all time or a number of gold gloves or at least have amazing fielding stats to get into the HOF? I think that's the argument most of the time with DH guys... is that their stats have to be that much better because alls they do is hit. I don't think many people are saying they shouldn't be in the HOF because it's not a position... but then again, maybe I'm wrong :lol:

Then compare apples to apples. I have zero problem with that. When judging a DH, compare him to other DHs. That is a 100% equal comparison. Comparing a DH to any other position is not an equal comparison. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the position, it's a position. We do not compare starters to closers, we don't compare SS to 1B, we don't compare C to RF. Why would a DH be compared to anything other than a DH?

 

[sportscardtheory]

Walker has never been linked? Really caught lightning in a bottle then in '97 don't you think? Probably just drank a lot of red bull that year

Has he been linked to PEDs? You simply speculating doesn't mean anything at all. If you have a link or a tie, by all means, let us know.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

That's not ties, that's simply speculation. And I never said it was all about batting average and OBP.

First, I didn't say those were ties. Just to be careful to not allow the lack of ties to become a connotation for assuming no use of PEDs.

Second, you presented what in support of his candidcay other than avg? Other than career walks, does he rank top 50 or so in any significant batting stat?

 

[MansGame]

Then compare apples to apples. I have zero problem with that. When judging a DH, compare him to other DHs. That is a 100% equal comparison. Comparing a DH to any other position is not an equal comparison. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the position, it's a position. We do not compare starters to closers, we don't compare SS to 1B, we don't compare C to RF. Why would a DH be compared to anything other than a DH?

You bring up an interesting point and I'm not sure how to respond lol... I think it's totally fair to compare a guy who only hits and doesn't play the field to everyone else who hits... we don't only compare second basemen to second basemen when seeing if they are HOF worthy right? Regardless, it's a very interesting topic.

Just to stat where I sit... I think DH guys should be able to get into the HOF but I do think they need to be outstanding hitters and really stand out because that's all they do IMO. I also don't think they should only be compared to other DH hitters because I wouldn't only compare Albert Belle to other Left Fielders when thinking about whether he should or shouldn't be in the HOF... people would compare him to everyone else right?

 

[MansGame]

Has he been linked to PEDs? You simply speculating doesn't mean anything at all. If you have a link or a tie, by all means, let us know.

I'll have to look for a source

But really though... I feel like people LOVE to point to a guy who found lightning in a bottle for one year in the late '90s and boom, he is linked.. right? Walker literally was a freak for that one year, leading the league in like multiple categories, won MVP and never returned to that shape again lol. Maybe it's just me but that's freaking odd.

 

[sportscardtheory]

First, I didn't say those were ties. Just to be careful to not allow the lack of ties to become a connotation for assuming no use of PEDs.

Second, you presented what in support of his candidcay other than avg? Other than career walks, does he rank top 50 or so in any significant batting stat?

With a complete lack of any evidence, I'm not one to "assume" the worst out of everyone. That's not how I roll.

I don't need to make a case for Edgar Martinez for the Hall of Fame. The Hall voters are doing just fine as it is. He's been around 35% for all four of his eligible years and that is very good.

 

[U L Washington Rookie]

I still don't understand arguments against a players position for the HOF. The designated hitter is a position. I understand that they only play half of the game, but it's not their fault. American League pitchers only play half of the game, but no one holds that against them. Same thing with closers. It's a position. Every team uses them. I'm sure a smart ass will bring up ball/bat boys, but the positions mention are in the box score. They get credited with counting numbers. They make contributions to their team.

The biggest problem is the writers. Those ******** suck. They love to look down their noses and take a holier than thou approach when voting. I think most of them are just pissed because they weren't good enough to play.

I have no issue with the DH position, per se. However, it's the Hall of Fame, not the list of best players at each position. DHs should, in my opinion, need what looks like a relatively higher offensive stats than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

I think of it like this: total contribution to his team. No matter where the contributions come from - batting, fielding, pitching - reach a certain level in total, and you're in. Starting pitchers don't bat (or bat poorly in the NL), but their contribution to their team's defense outweighs the lack of hitting.

A top SP has something like 900 plate appearances against him in today's game, to which he directly contributes to the outcome of every one. For RPs, that number is more like 300, but one can argue it's in the highest-leverage situations possible much of the time. Huge difference, thus their hurdle via pitching stats alone is tougher to meet.

Similar to RPs, DH's have to impact the game on offense more than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

C and SS are the most important defensive positions on the field, thus for the great defensive guys at those positions, they tend to have lower batting stats requirements to get in. That's not showing favoritism to a position or bashing any others. That's simply looking at production in total.

 

[MansGame]

I have no issue with the DH position, per se. However, it's the Hall of Fame, not the list of best players at each position. DHs should, in my opinion, need what looks like a relatively higher offensive stats than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

I think of it like this: total contribution to his team. No matter where the contributions come from - batting, fielding, pitching - reach a certain level in total, and you're in. Starting pitchers don't bat (or bat poorly in the NL), but their contribution to their team's defense outweighs the lack of hitting.

A top SP has something like 900 plate appearances against him in today's game, to which he directly contributes to the outcome of every one. For RPs, that number is more like 300, but one can argue it's in the highest-leverage situations possible much of the time. Huge difference, thus their hurdle via pitching stats alone is tougher to meet.

Similar to RPs, DH's have to impact the game on offense more than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

C and SS are the most important defensive positions on the field, thus for the great defensive guys at those positions, they tend to have lower batting stats requirements to get in. That's not showing favoritism to a position or bashing any others. That's simply looking at production in total.

Totally agree with the bolded above.

 

[chompsmcgee]

Be careful with this. Of his six or so best seasons, only one was prior to the age of 32.

That fact requires some context, since you're punishing him for the Mariners love for Jim Presley and injuries.

Edgar didn't get a shot at a full season until he was 27. By 29 he was an All-Star. Then missed most of age 30 and 31 seasons due to injury. So yes, his best years were after age 31 by default.

 

[sportscardtheory]

That fact requires some context, since you're punishing him for the Mariners love for Jim Presley and injuries.

Edgar didn't get a shot at a full season until he was 27. By 29 he was an All-Star. Then missed most of age 30 and 31 seasons due to injury. So yes, his best years were after age 31 by default.

But he doesn't have 500+ homeruns and 3,000+ hits! He CAN'T be a HOFer!

Edgar Martinez was probably a better pure hitter than half the hitters in the Hall of Fame. These people are crazy.

 

[chompsmcgee]

But he doesn't have 500+ homeruns and 3,000+ hits! He CAN'T be a HOFer!

Edgar Martinez was probably a better pure hitter than half the hitters in the Hall of Fame. These people are crazy.

The difference is in opinion is between people who saw him play and those that didn't.

 

[muskiesfan]

I have no issue with the DH position, per se. However, it's the Hall of Fame, not the list of best players at each position. DHs should, in my opinion, need what looks like a relatively higher offensive stats than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

I think of it like this: total contribution to his team. No matter where the contributions come from - batting, fielding, pitching - reach a certain level in total, and you're in. Starting pitchers don't bat (or bat poorly in the NL), but their contribution to their team's defense outweighs the lack of hitting.

A top SP has something like 900 plate appearances against him in today's game, to which he directly contributes to the outcome of every one. For RPs, that number is more like 300, but one can argue it's in the highest-leverage situations possible much of the time. Huge difference, thus their hurdle via pitching stats alone is tougher to meet.

Similar to RPs, DH's have to impact the game on offense more than other position players to make up for not playing the field.

C and SS are the most important defensive positions on the field, thus for the great defensive guys at those positions, they tend to have lower batting stats requirements to get in. That's not showing favoritism to a position or bashing any others. That's simply looking at production in total.

I'm not disagreeing with you exactly. I'm just saying that someone who spent the majority of their career at DH should be compared against other like players. Regardless of whether you or I like the DH (I do not), it is a position.

While the Hall may not be for the best at each position, that is how players are judged. When I think of Ozzie Smith, even though he played for the Cardinals, I think of the greatest SS ever. That's my opinion and I base it off of how he compares to other SS. If Ozzie played 1B or 3B would he still be in the Hall? Absolutely not, but that doesn't matter because Ozzie was a SS.

That's how I feel about the DH. I would rather not have it, but since it is a position it should be treated as such. If the bar is higher for that position, that's fine, I have no problem with that. I'm simply saying that when comparing a DH, he should be compared against other DHs.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Given that it's the only permanent position with 'hitter' in its title, the DH needs to be the best hitter in the league without question to get into the HOF.

Edgar was, at best, the third best hitter on his team... this alone should keep him out.