Do you think Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols use(d) PED's?

[Topnotchsy]

I was listening to Mike and Mike this morning in the car for a few minutes and they discussed the perception surrounding Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols, and how despite the fact neither was ever linked to PED's in any way, many have taken a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality with them.

I was wondering what people's personal feelings were? Do you assume they used PED's? One but not the other?

Both are obviously putting up huge numbers and are amongst the league leaders in homeruns pretty much every season. That said, historically there have been players who have put up such numbers, so it's not like their performance is beyond imaginable, and if the entire era was clean, they may have been the "Mickey Mantle's, Lou Gehrig's, Babe Ruth's" of the current era.

What do you think?

 

[All The Hype]

I really hope Pujols never used PEDs. He's the last chance for baseball to be cleansed of its dirty career homerun record.

 

[boomo]

i was thinking the same thing. If pujols is found out to be guilty, baseball could be in big trouble. he is the last hope. Howard is a naturally big guy, i think he is clean. Pujols does so much work with kids, he has said many times that alone would make it impossible for him to ever do ped's, as he wouldnt be able to deal with letting these kids down. I sure hope he is being truthful. His name surfaces as fact, baseball is really going to suffer.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.

So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

 

[Topnotchsy]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.

So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

I do think that as we go along more and more people will adopt the "who cares" mentality, simply because so many of the players used. I do agree that people have chosen place an arbitrary "line" in their mind to target and vilify the players who are now coming out, but never consider the older player who may have been getting an edge, and never consider what the rules were at that point in time.

I do like to think both are clean, but agree on your last statement completely. I do hope that Pujols is clean, and his charity work is commendable, but I really hope he holds himself to a "higher standard" in all areas of his life.

 

[abncollectsautos]

i really hope they havent. but nothing surprises me now

 

[Bill Menard]

I have to say that I tend to agree with Mike and Mike and take a guilty until proven innocent mentality to the game now too. There are just too many names that have been dropped now and it generally happens to be of those who have been very significant in the game - those who have set records and pushed the records of legends further down the list, making them even less significant with each person that passes them. This coupled with some of the stats players put up in one year and then drop off drastically the following year, really makes me question the achievements. Watching some guys have these monsterous years (2-3 in a row in some cases) and then a complete flaking off of production all of a sudden really troubles me and makes me think guys probably were using PEDs.

I know a lot of factors change the game from year to year and many players probably play through injuries, etc., that we may never even hear about, which can certainly contribute to the decline in production. I'm also well aware that these injuries can be helped along in the healing process by many different chemicals, drugs, etc. Which ones are banned, which aren't, I have no idea. Admittedly, I don't know much about the substances used. I also tend to question the guys who really never had great power numbers in their careers and then all of a sudden have a break out year and the fall off the map again after that. Hard to believe they did it all on their own with no PEDs.

I think the game is so competitive that the temptation to find anyway to give yourself an advantage has got to be very very strong and contemplated by many players. How many actually end up saying, "Yeah, ok, I am going to try this," I obviously have no idea, but I personally think it's a large proportion of players.

 

[matfanofold]

Far be it for me to scoff at yet another steroids thread/poll, no matter how redundant it has become. but I digress....


"When in Rome, do as the Romas do!"

This is all there really is to know about the last 20 years of all modern sports. The mark of the beast is steroids and the anti-christ is the holy pay check. If you want the cash, you take the mark(steroids). I am inclined to believe the minimum percentage of steroid users in all of sports(at one time or another) is atleast 50% and as much as 90%.

To be frank, I am discusted with all the "did this specific guy do this" or "did this specific guy take that" or "this specific guy got caught" threads and discussions and news headlines all together.

When are people, reporters and fans alike going to get through there thick sculls that it was far more than an individual choice? When will everyone understand it was just something done as a whole, promoted and supplied within an entire organization? When will people finally demand retrobution from the managers, owners and commishiner alike for at best turning a blind eye, and at worst promoting through indifference?

So I defer back to the origonal question, do I think they used PED's? Absolutely, at one point or another. Do I care? No.

I'd just like to point out that at some level its a personal choice, but once you compound the pressures of making the team, being relevant, making the cut, making the big bucks, peer pressure and the thrill of living your dream and building a solid life for your family, all from taking the magic pill, it goes beyond simple choice.

 

[thefasterblade]

Only thing stopping me from picking up a Pujols BC Auto is the fact that if he's ever linked to PEDs, a ton of money will be lost. Personally, I am growing more into "Guilty until proven innocent."

 

[All The Hype]

I have to say that I tend to agree with Mike and Mike and take a guilty until proven innocent mentality to the game now too. There are just too many names that have been dropped now and it generally happens to be of those who have been very significant in the game - those who have set records and pushed the records of legends further down the list, making them even less significant with each person that passes them. This coupled with some of the stats players put up in one year and then drop off drastically the following year, really makes me question the achievements. Watching some guys have these monsterous years (2-3 in a row in some cases) and then a complete flaking off of production all of a sudden really troubles me and makes me think guys probably were using PEDs.

I know a lot of factors change the game from year to year and many players probably play through injuries, etc., that we may never even hear about, which can certainly contribute to the decline in production. I'm also well aware that these injuries can be helped along in the healing process by many different chemicals, drugs, etc. Which ones are banned, which aren't, I have no idea. Admittedly, I don't know much about the substances used. I also tend to question the guys who really never had great power numbers in their careers and then all of a sudden have a break out year and the fall off the map again after that. Hard to believe they did it all on their own with no PEDs.

I think the game is so competitive that the temptation to find anyway to give yourself an advantage has got to be very very strong and contemplated by many players. How many actually end up saying, "Yeah, ok, I am going to try this," I obviously have no idea, but I personally think it's a large proportion of players.

Just because a player has a career year that stands out above their other numbers doesn't mean they used PEDs.

Ever hear of a guy named Roger Maris? He hit 61 homers in 1961 and never hit more than 39 any other year of his career. Was he taking steroids? Probably not.


It's the players who consistently put up bigger numbers than anyone has ever put up before that raise the red flag.


Barry Bonds was a very good baseball player, but when his numbers should have been getting progressively worse due to the fact that he was getting old, they kept getting better and better and then he hit 73 homeruns in 2001 at the age of 36.

When Maris hit 61, he was only 26. This is closer to the time when the human body is in prime physical condition, and therefore makes sense. Bonds hitting 30-40 homers during his 20s and then out of nowhere hitting 73 when he was 36 made it pretty obvious that he was using PEDs.

 

[Mozzie22]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.
So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

I think Lou Gehrig smoked crack. I think Willie Mays liked boys. Do you see how stupid comments can be? Why in the hell would you think Hank Aaron did steroids? This idiotic "I don't care if they cheated or not" mentality adopted by so many "fans" is what is killing baseball... one moron at a time.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Just because a player has a career year that stands out above their other numbers doesn't mean they used PEDs.

Ever hear of a guy named Roger Maris? He hit 61 homers in 1961 and never hit more than 39 any other year of his career. Was he taking steroids? Probably not.


It's the players who consistently put up bigger numbers than anyone has ever put up before that raise the red flag.


Barry Bonds was a very good baseball player, but when his numbers should have been getting progressively worse due to the fact that he was getting old, they kept getting better and better and then he hit 73 homeruns in 2001 at the age of 36.

When Maris hit 61, he was only 26. This is closer to the time when the human body is in prime physical condition, and therefore makes sense. Bonds hitting 30-40 homers during his 20s and then out of nowhere hitting 73 when he was 36 made it pretty obvious that he was using PEDs.

Just so you know, that logic implies that Aaron used as hit had his highest HR total at 37...in just less than 500 AB.

 

[muskiesfan]

Here are my thoughts on steroids. The Federal Government didn't take any serious action until 1988 and then issued an even more strict law in 1990. Commisioner Vincent banned steroids in MLB in 1991.

It's pretty cut and dry to me. If you used steroids/PEDs/HGH or whatever after June 1991, you cheated and broke the rules of MLB. If you used before that date, you weren't breaking the rules of MLB. So Canseco's use couldn't really be called cheating until after it was a rule.

So even if Hank Aaron did use, he didn't do anything wrong. It wasn't against the rules of MLB to use steroids prior to June 1991. People like to use the argument about testing. Just because testing didn't come into play until 2003-2004, that doesn't mean players that were using weren't breaking the rules. The substances were banned well before testing came into place.

Unlike others, my thoughts and opinions will not change regardless of who is found to have used. If it were to come out that Ken Griffey Jr. failed a drug test, I would be disappointed, but I would say he doesn't belong in the HOF either.



Joe

 

[All The Hype]

Just because a player has a career year that stands out above their other numbers doesn't mean they used PEDs.

Ever hear of a guy named Roger Maris? He hit 61 homers in 1961 and never hit more than 39 any other year of his career. Was he taking steroids? Probably not.


It's the players who consistently put up bigger numbers than anyone has ever put up before that raise the red flag.


Barry Bonds was a very good baseball player, but when his numbers should have been getting progressively worse due to the fact that he was getting old, they kept getting better and better and then he hit 73 homeruns in 2001 at the age of 36.

When Maris hit 61, he was only 26. This is closer to the time when the human body is in prime physical condition, and therefore makes sense. Bonds hitting 30-40 homers during his 20s and then out of nowhere hitting 73 when he was 36 made it pretty obvious that he was using PEDs.

Just so you know, that logic implies that Aaron used as hit had his highest HR total at 37...in just less than 500 AB.

The difference is this:

Aaron hit two more homeruns at age 37 than he had ever hit before (47, previous career high was 45).

Bonds hit twenty-four more homeruns at age 36 than he had ever hit before (73, previous career high was 49).

 

[beberly]

Just in case you need to know. Ryan Howard's dad is very big. One of Ryan's brothers is bigger than him. Large size runs in the family. I think Ryan is like Jim Thome; enjoys a lot of good home cooking.

 

[All The Hype]

Just in case you need to know. Ryan Howard's dad is very big. One of Ryan's brothers is bigger than him. Large size runs in the family. I think Ryan is like Jim Thome; enjoys a lot of good home cooking.

Agree completely. He's not exactly ripped either.

 

[Lars]

Chances are, both probably used something that maybe currently banned by MLB.

It isn't a performance enhancing issue, but perhaps a development issue where they used something at one point in their baseball playing lives, thinking it could help them at that point.

I think by now, those are two guys that should have some conscience in knowing what they can take and not take these days.

 

[UMich92]

This whole guilty until proven innocent mentality is crap. You will never be able to prove that a player didn't use, you'll only be able to prove that a player did use. You can't prove a negative.

My thought is that neither Howard or Pujols used. Then again, if you asked last week I would have said that Manny hadn't used either. So what do I know?

Alex

 

[jbhofmann]

At a point in time, lifting weights was not looked at the way it is now. Many were opposed to others doing it and was deemed as a "performance enhancer".

Cy Young-Never faced an African-American, Korean, Japanese, etc.. player
Babe Ruth-Never saw a slider or middle releiver
Bob Gibson-pitched on a higher and lower mound
Ozzie Smith-relied on artificial turf
Manny-used female fertility drugs that were prescribed to him

Each player in a different era had "performance enhancers".

None were illegal.

 

[Mozzie22]

At a point in time, lifting weights was not looked at the way it is now. Many were opposed to others doing it and was deemed as a "performance enhancer".

Cy Young-Never faced an African-American, Korean, Japanese, etc.. player
Babe Ruth-Never saw a slider or middle releiver
Bob Gibson-pitched on a higher and lower mound
Ozzie Smith-relied on artificial turf
Manny-used female fertility drugs that were prescribed to him

Each player in a different era had "performance enhancers".

None were illegal.

They aren't performance enhancers if everyone has the same "enhancement."
Babe Ruth never saw a slider or middle reliever...neither did anyone else back then. Babe Ruth didn't have the luxury of air travel or chiropractors either.
Ozzie Smith and Andre Dawson each played at least half of their careers on turf but Dawson can't walk correctly because of the effects it had on his knees and Ozzie had repeated problems with his body from playing on the turf. My point is it is only a performance enhancer if others don't have the same options legally.
What Manny is doing is different, he is cheating.