Do you think Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols use(d) PED's?

[mlbsalltimegreats]

Innocent until proven guilty.

Both are Clean!!!

 

[Brett Keith]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

Canseco is the only guy on that list that hasn't lost significant value. McGwire still does pretty well though, much better than the other non-Canseco guys. Someone a while back actually sent me a Clemens RC as a throw-in for an eBay win, and it wasn't even an expensive item. I thought that was pretty funny.

 

[Adamsince1981]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

No, he is. I think baseball card guys think we make up a huge portion of the baseball fan community. We don't.

Judging by the way the players are treated by the majority of fans and the those with a HOF vote....most DO care about wether or not a player took steroids(cheated).

 

[Adamsince1981]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

Canseco is the only guy on that list that hasn't lost significant value. McGwire still does pretty well though, much better than the other non-Canseco guys. Someone a while back actually sent me a Clemens RC as a throw-in for an eBay win, and it wasn't even an expensive item. I thought that was pretty funny.

McGwire's 1985 Topps sells for little the value of what it once did. His auto's sell well because they are very limited.

 

[Mozzie22]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

Yes, he is. It is sad that the state of baseball is such that not only do certain "fans" of the game not care that the players are using steroids, but others agree with them on it.

 

[pujolsthomefan33]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

No, he is. I think baseball card guys think we make up a huge portion of the baseball fan community. We don't.

Judging by the way the players are treated by the majority of fans and the those with a HOF vote....most DO care about wether or not a player took steroids(cheated).

you may be correct that a vast majority does care.....but I think what the vast majority doesnt realize is that plain and simple, most of the players at some point in their careers...even if it was HS or college...did in fact use, even players from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's etc. I truly believe more and more what Canseco is saying...maybe not so much the naming and finger pointing...but the overall statistics that 85% of the MLB players were/or had used.

That is the main reason it doesnt really bother me. Sure, I have a few players in my mind that I dont think or I feel I am pretty sure did not use anything, and I will hold them in higher regard than the ones that did, but that list is VERY small. To me, I see it as more of everyone from pitchers to backup catchers to All-Stars were all using so therefore it MUST even the playing field. Case in point...Manny Ramirez may be using, but so were most of the pitchers he was facing, and Manny still put up solid numbers against them.


If nobody used or everybody used, the great players are still going to be great players no matter what happens.


TK

 

[Brett Keith]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

Canseco is the only guy on that list that hasn't lost significant value. McGwire still does pretty well though, much better than the other non-Canseco guys. Someone a while back actually sent me a Clemens RC as a throw-in for an eBay win, and it wasn't even an expensive item. I thought that was pretty funny.

McGwire's 1985 Topps sells for little the value of what it once did. His auto's sell well because they are very limited.

Eh, "well" is relative. I see high end Clemens autos up for prices that are 1/2 or 1/3 of what they used to get, and they don't always sell for those prices. A Clemens 2001 Donruss Signature Significant Signatures Master Series just sold for $270, that's a little more than half of book on the regular card.

 

[Mozzie22]

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

No single place did I state that I was credibly stating the Aaron used steroids at least once, nor imply that I had proof. What I stated was that I believe that Hank Aaron used at least once.

Is it an unfounded opinion? Sure, but it is no less an opinion than another other opinion as long as it is phrased as such.

We do know that steroids were in baseball during the 70s. A fact admitted by a former Aaron teammate in Tom House. We did see a spike in Aaron's stats at 37, running completely against the percentages of 99% of the players in history. In fact, Aaron's two greatest SLG seasons were at ages 37 and 39. We also know the drive and determination needed to get past Ruth...especially in supposed "weakening" years so certainly a little "boost" would certainly peak most people's interest.

Now, is any of this concrete or evidence that Aaron used? Not at all and I'm not stating that it is, I am simply stating that I believe Aaron (among thousands of former MLB players who are "innocent") used steroids or something similar at some point. Knowingly or unknowingly, I'm not differentiating.

That's it Fozzie.

Oh, well, you're concrete enough on that. Aaron had slight increases in certain catagories in his 30's so he must have been on steroids ::facepalm::

Now that's it 200lb ****** Bag.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

No, he is. I think baseball card guys think we make up a huge portion of the baseball fan community. We don't.

Judging by the way the players are treated by the majority of fans and the those with a HOF vote....most DO care about wether or not a player took steroids(cheated).

Well, people who follow baseball know how rampant steroid/PED usage was, or at least how rampant it is assumed to be.

Once the dust settles, I don't think we'll see too much of a long term impact in election to the HOF. Clearly Bonds and Clemens will be the litmus tests for this. (McGwire is a terrible example because his lack of votes are a compilation of timing, Congress and hyper-analysis of his stats.)

For every juicing hitter, there was a juicing pitcher. And for every juicing all-star/MVP, there was a bench player.

Anyone that feels truly "cheated" by players using steroids can't possibly get out much because there are far worse things in this world, and far more important people putting on facades than a measly ball player jamming a needle in his tail.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

No single place did I state that I was credibly stating the Aaron used steroids at least once, nor imply that I had proof. What I stated was that I believe that Hank Aaron used at least once.

Is it an unfounded opinion? Sure, but it is no less an opinion than another other opinion as long as it is phrased as such.

We do know that steroids were in baseball during the 70s. A fact admitted by a former Aaron teammate in Tom House. We did see a spike in Aaron's stats at 37, running completely against the percentages of 99% of the players in history. In fact, Aaron's two greatest SLG seasons were at ages 37 and 39. We also know the drive and determination needed to get past Ruth...especially in supposed "weakening" years so certainly a little "boost" would certainly peak most people's interest.

Now, is any of this concrete or evidence that Aaron used? Not at all and I'm not stating that it is, I am simply stating that I believe Aaron (among thousands of former MLB players who are "innocent") used steroids or something similar at some point. Knowingly or unknowingly, I'm not differentiating.

That's it Fozzie.

Oh, well, you're concrete enough on that. Aaron had slight increases in certain catagories in his 30's so he must have been on steroids ::facepalm::

Now that's it 200lb ****** Bag.

You really had to resort to throwing in "****** Bag?"

Good grief.

 

[Mozzie22]

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

No single place did I state that I was credibly stating the Aaron used steroids at least once, nor imply that I had proof. What I stated was that I believe that Hank Aaron used at least once.

Is it an unfounded opinion? Sure, but it is no less an opinion than another other opinion as long as it is phrased as such.

We do know that steroids were in baseball during the 70s. A fact admitted by a former Aaron teammate in Tom House. We did see a spike in Aaron's stats at 37, running completely against the percentages of 99% of the players in history. In fact, Aaron's two greatest SLG seasons were at ages 37 and 39. We also know the drive and determination needed to get past Ruth...especially in supposed "weakening" years so certainly a little "boost" would certainly peak most people's interest.

Now, is any of this concrete or evidence that Aaron used? Not at all and I'm not stating that it is, I am simply stating that I believe Aaron (among thousands of former MLB players who are "innocent") used steroids or something similar at some point. Knowingly or unknowingly, I'm not differentiating.

That's it Fozzie.

Oh, well, you're concrete enough on that. Aaron had slight increases in certain catagories in his 30's so he must have been on steroids ::facepalm::

Now that's it 200lb ****** Bag.

You really had to resort to throwing in "****** Bag?"

Good grief.

Oh I'm sorry; I guess I mispronounced your name like you did mine...man am I embarrassed.

 

[vetsgt02]

At a point in time, lifting weights was not looked at the way it is now. Many were opposed to others doing it and was deemed as a "performance enhancer".

Cy Young-Never faced an African-American, Korean, Japanese, etc.. player
Babe Ruth-Never saw a slider or middle releiver
Bob Gibson-pitched on a higher and lower mound
Ozzie Smith-relied on artificial turf
Manny-used female fertility drugs that were prescribed to him

Each player in a different era had "performance enhancers".

None were illegal.

Sorry but I disagree with you points on Ruth. He might not of seen a slider but he was playing with a dead ball and had to play in some fields that where extremely large. Also he was having to hit Shine balls and other doctored pitches that are very much illegal now.

 

[Adamsince1981]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.

No, he is. I think baseball card guys think we make up a huge portion of the baseball fan community. We don't.

Judging by the way the players are treated by the majority of fans and the those with a HOF vote....most DO care about wether or not a player took steroids(cheated).

Well, people who follow baseball know how rampant steroid/PED usage was, or at least how rampant it is assumed to be.

Once the dust settles, I don't think we'll see too much of a long term impact in election to the HOF. Clearly Bonds and Clemens will be the litmus tests for this. (McGwire is a terrible example because his lack of votes are a compilation of timing, Congress and hyper-analysis of his stats.)

For every juicing hitter, there was a juicing pitcher. And for every juicing all-star/MVP, there was a bench player.

Anyone that feels truly "cheated" by players using steroids can't possibly get out much because there are far worse things in this world, and far more important people putting on facades than a measly ball player jamming a needle in his tail.

Cheated isn't the only negative feeling a fan can have towards a PED user. I know you are smarter than that.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

For every juicing hitter, there was a juicing pitcher. And for every juicing all-star/MVP, there was a bench player.

Anyone that feels truly "cheated" by players using steroids can't possibly get out much because there are far worse things in this world, and far more important people putting on facades than a measly ball player jamming a needle in his tail.

Cheated isn't the only negative feeling a fan can have towards a PED user. I know you are smarter than that.

Not being a pain here, but I can't fathom what other feelings people may have towards a PED user that doesn't stem from a feeling of being "cheated." To me, that is the root of the issue with people...cheating.

But again, I have always viewed steroid usage as a level playing field in this era, which obviously stems from my beliefs that it is almost impossible to compare players from one era to the next.

 

[bikerider60]

i really hope they havent. but nothing surprises me now

I feel the same....

 

[Adamsince1981]

For every juicing hitter, there was a juicing pitcher. And for every juicing all-star/MVP, there was a bench player.

Anyone that feels truly "cheated" by players using steroids can't possibly get out much because there are far worse things in this world, and far more important people putting on facades than a measly ball player jamming a needle in his tail.

Cheated isn't the only negative feeling a fan can have towards a PED user. I know you are smarter than that.

Not being a pain here, but I can't fathom what other feelings people may have towards a PED user that doesn't stem from a feeling of being "cheated." To me, that is the root of the issue with people...cheating.

But again, I have always viewed steroid usage as a level playing field in this era, which obviously stems from my beliefs that it is almost impossible to compare players from one era to the next.

Varying/Changing degrees of respect for players based on if they are known PED users or not. Disappointment. Embrassment.

As a Cardinals fan, in no way shape or form do I feel cheated when I look back on my McGwire memories. I simply have less respect for the guy and I am disappointed that he used PED's.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

For every juicing hitter, there was a juicing pitcher. And for every juicing all-star/MVP, there was a bench player.

Anyone that feels truly "cheated" by players using steroids can't possibly get out much because there are far worse things in this world, and far more important people putting on facades than a measly ball player jamming a needle in his tail.

Cheated isn't the only negative feeling a fan can have towards a PED user. I know you are smarter than that.

Not being a pain here, but I can't fathom what other feelings people may have towards a PED user that doesn't stem from a feeling of being "cheated." To me, that is the root of the issue with people...cheating.

But again, I have always viewed steroid usage as a level playing field in this era, which obviously stems from my beliefs that it is almost impossible to compare players from one era to the next.

Varying/Changing degrees of respect for players based on if they are known PED users or not. Disappointment. Embrassment.

As a Cardinals fan, in no way shape or form do I feel cheated when I look back on my McGwire memories. I simply have less respect for the guy and I am disappointed that he used PED's.

Fair enough.

 

[Topnotchsy]

This isn't directed at the OP, but does anyone get irritated that Pujols and Howard are constantly having their names thrown around in PED talk?

This was exactly the question I was hoping to get an answer to. I personally do not assume they used, and voted that way, but what I was trying to determine was public perception. The results indicate that at least amongst those who voted, a very large percentage assume that everyone is guilty.

With that said, I'm with 200lb on that I honestly don't care at all, and think that the stink has a lot to do with a few people on their high horses, and the majority following along (if people really cared, why is it just baseball that people make a big deal about and not all sports especially football?)