HOF announcement in a couple of minutes

[bodiaz]

So did Arod but they chose their paths. I don't think they will eventually let them in look at how long Shoeless Joe has been kept out, way after he died.

The Shoeless Joe thing cant even be brought up in the discussion since he has been banned from baseball. The steroid guys have not been banned they just carry the stigma. Unless the commish lifts the ban Shoeless Joe cant even be put on the ballot. Also i'd bet if the ban was lifted he would go in the first time he's on the ballot

Sigh...

Shoeless Joe was banned from baseball. But this did not exclude him from the baseball HOF.

He was on the initial HOF ballot in 1936 and got 2 votes out of 226 ballots cast (0.9%) and fell off the ballot because he didn't make the 5% cutoff.

In 1991, the HOF voted to officially exclude members of baseball's ineligible list from BBWAA voting (mostly because Pete Rose was about to go on the ballot). However, theVeterans committee did not follow suit until 2008.

So, shoeless Joe had 72 years where he could have gotten in, but didn't. The BBWAA vote is a precedent...that players need not be voted in if their conduct didn't warrant induction.the HOF includes integrity in the voting criteria for induction. What is considered inappropriate behavior has changed over the last 75 years, and some players that are in now would not make the cut by today's standards, but it would be wrong to go back and second guess those that have already made it in.

The HOF is baseball's highest honor. Someone does not need to be found guilty of drug use or cheating to be denied the greatest honor the sport can give a player. I, for one, am glad to see the voters elevating the standard of player integrity in the voting process. A precedent made with shoeless Joe back in 1936...

HOF WAS baseballs Highest honor. It is meaningless now. There are 50 players that have ZERO business being in the Hall, if not more. I have no respect for the voters. Jack Morris is 10 times the pitcher Blyleven was! Blyleven had a hof curve ball, and played along time. That does not make you a HOFer! Ozzie had HOF defense, not a HOFer. Jim Rice was a good power hitter in a small park, not HOFer. Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Reese, Maz, and on and on! The Hall is a joke!

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

"Biased". Everyone, the word is 'biased'.

I'm bias, I think he is a dominate player.

 

[SamHell]

HOF WAS baseballs Highest honor. It is meaningless now. There are 50 players that have ZERO business being in the Hall, if not more. I have no respect for the voters. Jack Morris is 10 times the pitcher Blyleven was! Blyleven had a hof curve ball, and played along time. That does not make you a HOFer! Ozzie had HOF defense, not a HOFer. Jim Rice was a good power hitter in a small park, not HOFer. Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Reese, Maz, and on and on! The Hall is a joke!

You keep saying all this about Morris but where is your proof? Blyleven's ERA is half a run better, 1.50 runs better if you look at the post season. They both won multiple World Series. Standard stats? Blyeven is much better. ERA, K's, wins, complete games, shutouts. Advanced stats? Blyleven kills him in WAR, ERA+, WHIP. Tell me why Morris is better.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

"Biased". Everyone, the word is 'biased'.

I'm bias, I think he is a dominate player.

 

[bodiaz]

HOF WAS baseballs Highest honor. It is meaningless now. There are 50 players that have ZERO business being in the Hall, if not more. I have no respect for the voters. Jack Morris is 10 times the pitcher Blyleven was! Blyleven had a hof curve ball, and played along time. That does not make you a HOFer! Ozzie had HOF defense, not a HOFer. Jim Rice was a good power hitter in a small park, not HOFer. Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Reese, Maz, and on and on! The Hall is a joke!

You keep saying all this about Morris but where is your proof? Blyleven's ERA is half a run better, 1.50 runs better if you look at the post season. They both won multiple World Series. Standard stats? Blyeven is much better. ERA, K's, wins, complete games, shutouts. Advanced stats? Blyleven kills him in WAR, ERA+, WHIP. Tell me why Morris is better.

Morris was pitching against Aces his entire career! Blyleven was always a 2 or 3, and still had barely over a .500 record! When you went to a ball game, and found out Blyleven was pitching against your team, you did not get scared. Morris would strike fear in you. I do not need #s, I watched both of their careers. I am not saying Morris is a lock HOFer, but if Blyleven is, that opens the door for 20 others.

 

[braden]

HOF WAS baseballs Highest honor. It is meaningless now. There are 50 players that have ZERO business being in the Hall, if not more. I have no respect for the voters. Jack Morris is 10 times the pitcher Blyleven was! Blyleven had a hof curve ball, and played along time. That does not make you a HOFer! Ozzie had HOF defense, not a HOFer. Jim Rice was a good power hitter in a small park, not HOFer. Gossage, Fingers, Sutter, Reese, Maz, and on and on! The Hall is a joke!

You keep saying all this about Morris but where is your proof? Blyleven's ERA is half a run better, 1.50 runs better if you look at the post season. They both won multiple World Series. Standard stats? Blyeven is much better. ERA, K's, wins, complete games, shutouts. Advanced stats? Blyleven kills him in WAR, ERA+, WHIP. Tell me why Morris is better.

Morris was pitching against Aces his entire career! Blyleven was always a 2 or 3, and still had barely over a .500 record! When you went to a ball game, and found out Blyleven was pitching against your team, you did not get scared. Morris would strike fear in you. I do not need #s, I watched both of their careers. I am not saying Morris is a lock HOFer, but if Blyleven is, that opens the door for 20 others.

Fear strikability
# of starts against 'aces'
no numbers

I'm only going by memory but I believe that, verbatim, those are the top three qualifications for induction. So you're right, Morris should've been in well before Blyleven. Unless I remembered wrong in which case, Morris is where he belongs.

 

[braden]

"Biased". Everyone, the word is 'biased'.

I'm bias, I think he is a dominate player.

No way, he's the worse.

 

[SilverandBlack]

Blyleven getting in opens the door for guys like schilling, jim kaat, and mike mussian for sure

 

[SamHell]

Morris was pitching against Aces his entire career! Blyleven was always a 2 or 3, and still had barely over a .500 record! When you went to a ball game, and found out Blyleven was pitching against your team, you did not get scared. Morris would strike fear in you. I do not need #s, I watched both of their careers. I am not saying Morris is a lock HOFer, but if Blyleven is, that opens the door for 20 others.

Blyleven didn't seem scared when he shut down Morris and the Tigers in the 87 ALCS. He beat Morris in game 2 and then came back and beat Doyle Alexander(Sparky Anderson apparently considered him the ace since he started him in games 1 and 5) in game 5.

 

[elmalo]

I HATE how people compare personal issues off the field to career issue on the field.


Being a drunk off the field IS NOT THE SAME as taking steroids/PEDs to enhance their performance on the field. Don't be an idiot.....PEDs are cheating. Don't relate the two.


Congrats to Alomar, and also congrats to myself so I won't have to listen to members bitch that Blyleven should be in the HOF......14 years later....

The problem is that we dont know who did or who didnt. There wasnt testing before and the testing now is a joke.

That's not the frackin point!!!!!!!

You said "Oh my yea those players had bad ethics and they are in the HOF....so why don't we let in all of the roiders as well! Same thing, right?!"


It doesn't matter who did and who didn't, that's not what I was trying to get across! Players who used steroids CHEATED, and they should not be in the HALL OF FAME if they had to cheat! Yes, there are some players in the HOF with personal issues....off the field, but they didn't cheat.


Considering you are sticking up for Bonds/Clemens,etc though, you must think noone was on steroids in the past few decades...am I right? Oh they never failed a drug test....that must mean they have been clean their whole career!


>>>FACEPALM<<<


Bondo, my post was not directed at you.

First off, you should settle down
Secondly, steroids have been a problem in baseball since the late 60's. Now all of the sudden we are going to pick or chose who gets into the hall of fame based on suspicions? We have no idea who was on them bc baseball didnt test for them. And even now that they do we still have no idea bc 1.the stuff that these guys use is undetectable and 2 baseballs testing policy is designed not to catch anyone.
There are pople who think Hank Aaron took steroids at the end of his career, so should we take him out of the hall of fame. We know that Aaron and Mays and a majority of players were on greenies, should we kick them out of the hall of fame? Is that not cheating? Gaylord Perry cheated, should we kick him out of the hall of fame? I really dont understand the hang up with steroids. And I dont understand why people cant accept that they have been and will continue to be a part of athletics.

Speed? Really? Why not take Lincy out of the game because he likes his weed? Take away Doc's Lsd no hitter? Mays has a terrible end of his carrer unlike Clemens where his needle helped him immensly. Roids may be a part of some players but not all, and if we are talking about the hall they should not be voted in. I really think some of them went WAY too far with it.

I said Aaron is suspected of using at the end of his career, not Mays. And to compare amphetamines to weed and LSD is absurd. There is a reason that all these guys tke them.

 

[scotty21690]

Blyleven getting in opens the door for guys like schilling, jim kaat, and mike mussian for sure

lulz.....Schilling IS a HOF pitcher. He was 3x the pitcher Blyleven was...

 

[elmalo]

Blyleven getting in opens the door for guys like schilling, jim kaat, and mike mussian for sure

lulz.....Schilling IS a HOF pitcher. He was 3x the pitcher Blyleven was...

He was definitely more dominant. And one of the best post season pitchers of all time.

 

[scotty21690]

Blyleven getting in opens the door for guys like schilling, jim kaat, and mike mussian for sure

lulz.....Schilling IS a HOF pitcher. He was 3x the pitcher Blyleven was...

He was definitely more dominant. And one of the best post season pitchers of all time.

Finally something we can agree on.

 

[Krom]

[quote="scotty21690":2oad5kic]I HATE how people compare personal issues off the field to career issue on the field.


Being a drunk off the field IS NOT THE SAME as taking steroids/PEDs to enhance their performance on the field. Don't be an idiot.....PEDs are cheating. Don't relate the two.


Congrats to Alomar, and also congrats to myself so I won't have to listen to members bitch that Blyleven should be in the HOF......14 years later....

The problem is that we dont know who did or who didnt. There wasnt testing before and the testing now is a joke.

That's not the frackin point!!!!!!!

You said "Oh my yea those players had bad ethics and they are in the HOF....so why don't we let in all of the roiders as well! Same thing, right?!"


It doesn't matter who did and who didn't, that's not what I was trying to get across! Players who used steroids CHEATED, and they should not be in the HALL OF FAME if they had to cheat! Yes, there are some players in the HOF with personal issues....off the field, but they didn't cheat.


Considering you are sticking up for Bonds/Clemens,etc though, you must think noone was on steroids in the past few decades...am I right? Oh they never failed a drug test....that must mean they have been clean their whole career!


>>>FACEPALM<<<


Bondo, my post was not directed at you.

First off, you should settle down
Secondly, steroids have been a problem in baseball since the late 60's. Now all of the sudden we are going to pick or chose who gets into the hall of fame based on suspicions? We have no idea who was on them bc baseball didnt test for them. And even now that they do we still have no idea bc 1.the stuff that these guys use is undetectable and 2 baseballs testing policy is designed not to catch anyone.
There are pople who think Hank Aaron took steroids at the end of his career, so should we take him out of the hall of fame. We know that Aaron and Mays and a majority of players were on greenies, should we kick them out of the hall of fame? Is that not cheating? Gaylord Perry cheated, should we kick him out of the hall of fame? I really dont understand the hang up with steroids. And I dont understand why people cant accept that they have been and will continue to be a part of athletics.

Speed? Really? Why not take Lincy out of the game because he likes his weed? Take away Doc's Lsd no hitter? Mays has a terrible end of his carrer unlike Clemens where his needle helped him immensly. Roids may be a part of some players but not all, and if we are talking about the hall they should not be voted in. I really think some of them went WAY too far with it.

I said Aaron is suspected of using at the end of his career, not Mays. And to compare amphetamines to weed and LSD is absurd. There is a reason that all these guys tke them.[/quote:2oad5kic]
Well Aaron had a weak end too, hit an avg. 14 hrs and hit less than 250 for the last 3 years. If he juiced it didn't help much.

 

[SamHell]

How can Schilling be a HOF'er? He was never dominant because he never won a Cy Young! He only made six all star teams. Elston Howard has more than that and he's not in. Most of the time he wasn't even the best pitcher on his team, much less best pitcher in the league!(Randy Johnson) He didn't strike TEH FEAR! He pitched 20 years and only averaged 10 wins a year. It's the hall of fame not the hall of very good!


Sounds silly doesn't it. Schilling deserves to be in IMO. He won't be first ballot but he will get there.

 

[scotty21690]

How can Schilling be a HOF'er? He was never dominant because he never won a Cy Young! He only made six all star teams. Elston Howard has more than that and he's not in. Most of the time he wasn't even the best pitcher on his team, much less best pitcher in the league!(Randy Johnson) He didn't strike TEH FEAR! He pitched 20 years and only averaged 10 wins a year. It's the hall of fame not the hall of very good!


Sounds silly doesn't it. Schilling deserves to be in IMO. He won't be first ballot but he will get there.

omfg, huge facepalm!

New thread commin' up...

 

[SilverandBlack]

Blyleven getting in opens the door for guys like schilling, jim kaat, and mike mussian for sure

lulz.....Schilling IS a HOF pitcher. He was 3x the pitcher Blyleven was...

I guess i mis typed that i think schilling is def. there has been some debate over if he should be i i meant he is def in if guys like blyleven are getting in.

 

[predatorkj]

So...does Bags really have a chance? I can't see him jumping up so much next year but in 2013...I could see him going in. The class is stacked for sure but I could totally see the writers giving him the nod while all of the other guys like Bonds and Sosa and the like get the cold shoulder. It seems a lot of these writers are the childish lot and would do such a thing just to send a message. Bad thing is...I don't believe Bags to be clean. But he has no dirt as of yet. So it would be the ultimate snub to the other guys. Instead of the proper message, it would be more like "Your fault for getting caught dummy".

In any case...I was kinda amazed at Larkin. The guy was great but I guess I just have a hard time seeing guys I grew up watching be so close to being in the HOF. I guess that's what happens when you grow up hearing about Ruth and Mays and Aaron. These newer guys just don't seem legendary like the old timers. I know they probably are but...you see it differently when you watched them play.

 

[bodiaz]

[quote="elmalo":3g0gzerg][quote="scotty21690":3g0gzerg]I HATE how people compare personal issues off the field to career issue on the field.


Being a drunk off the field IS NOT THE SAME as taking steroids/PEDs to enhance their performance on the field. Don't be an idiot.....PEDs are cheating. Don't relate the two.


Congrats to Alomar, and also congrats to myself so I won't have to listen to members bitch that Blyleven should be in the HOF......14 years later....

The problem is that we dont know who did or who didnt. There wasnt testing before and the testing now is a joke.

That's not the frackin point!!!!!!!

You said "Oh my yea those players had bad ethics and they are in the HOF....so why don't we let in all of the roiders as well! Same thing, right?!"


It doesn't matter who did and who didn't, that's not what I was trying to get across! Players who used steroids CHEATED, and they should not be in the HALL OF FAME if they had to cheat! Yes, there are some players in the HOF with personal issues....off the field, but they didn't cheat.


Considering you are sticking up for Bonds/Clemens,etc though, you must think noone was on steroids in the past few decades...am I right? Oh they never failed a drug test....that must mean they have been clean their whole career!


>>>FACEPALM<<<


Bondo, my post was not directed at you.

First off, you should settle down
Secondly, steroids have been a problem in baseball since the late 60's. Now all of the sudden we are going to pick or chose who gets into the hall of fame based on suspicions? We have no idea who was on them bc baseball didnt test for them. And even now that they do we still have no idea bc 1.the stuff that these guys use is undetectable and 2 baseballs testing policy is designed not to catch anyone.
There are pople who think Hank Aaron took steroids at the end of his career, so should we take him out of the hall of fame. We know that Aaron and Mays and a majority of players were on greenies, should we kick them out of the hall of fame? Is that not cheating? Gaylord Perry cheated, should we kick him out of the hall of fame? I really dont understand the hang up with steroids. And I dont understand why people cant accept that they have been and will continue to be a part of athletics.

Speed? Really? Why not take Lincy out of the game because he likes his weed? Take away Doc's Lsd no hitter? Mays has a terrible end of his carrer unlike Clemens where his needle helped him immensly. Roids may be a part of some players but not all, and if we are talking about the hall they should not be voted in. I really think some of them went WAY too far with it.

I said Aaron is suspected of using at the end of his career, not Mays. And to compare amphetamines to weed and LSD is absurd. There is a reason that all these guys tke them.[/quote:3g0gzerg]
Well Aaron had a weak end too, hit an avg. 14 hrs and hit less than 250 for the last 3 years. If he juiced it didn't help much.[/quote:3g0gzerg]


WOW! Let me get this straight, you only have a problem with steriods in the game if the player is productive on them? What a freaking hypocrite.

 

[elmalo]

[quote="elmalo":1nv5jnl3][quote="scotty21690":1nv5jnl3]I HATE how people compare personal issues off the field to career issue on the field.


Being a drunk off the field IS NOT THE SAME as taking steroids/PEDs to enhance their performance on the field. Don't be an idiot.....PEDs are cheating. Don't relate the two.


Congrats to Alomar, and also congrats to myself so I won't have to listen to members bitch that Blyleven should be in the HOF......14 years later....

The problem is that we dont know who did or who didnt. There wasnt testing before and the testing now is a joke.

That's not the frackin point!!!!!!!

You said "Oh my yea those players had bad ethics and they are in the HOF....so why don't we let in all of the roiders as well! Same thing, right?!"


It doesn't matter who did and who didn't, that's not what I was trying to get across! Players who used steroids CHEATED, and they should not be in the HALL OF FAME if they had to cheat! Yes, there are some players in the HOF with personal issues....off the field, but they didn't cheat.


Considering you are sticking up for Bonds/Clemens,etc though, you must think noone was on steroids in the past few decades...am I right? Oh they never failed a drug test....that must mean they have been clean their whole career!


>>>FACEPALM<<<


Bondo, my post was not directed at you.

First off, you should settle down
Secondly, steroids have been a problem in baseball since the late 60's. Now all of the sudden we are going to pick or chose who gets into the hall of fame based on suspicions? We have no idea who was on them bc baseball didnt test for them. And even now that they do we still have no idea bc 1.the stuff that these guys use is undetectable and 2 baseballs testing policy is designed not to catch anyone.
There are pople who think Hank Aaron took steroids at the end of his career, so should we take him out of the hall of fame. We know that Aaron and Mays and a majority of players were on greenies, should we kick them out of the hall of fame? Is that not cheating? Gaylord Perry cheated, should we kick him out of the hall of fame? I really dont understand the hang up with steroids. And I dont understand why people cant accept that they have been and will continue to be a part of athletics.

Speed? Really? Why not take Lincy out of the game because he likes his weed? Take away Doc's Lsd no hitter? Mays has a terrible end of his carrer unlike Clemens where his needle helped him immensly. Roids may be a part of some players but not all, and if we are talking about the hall they should not be voted in. I really think some of them went WAY too far with it.

I said Aaron is suspected of using at the end of his career, not Mays. And to compare amphetamines to weed and LSD is absurd. There is a reason that all these guys tke them.[/quote:1nv5jnl3]
Well Aaron had a weak end too, hit an avg. 14 hrs and hit less than 250 for the last 3 years. If he juiced it didn't help much.[/quote:1nv5jnl3]
I didnt say he was. I said that it has been suggested that he was.
Hammerin' Hank Aaron: Was he on 'Roids?
Protrade, a sports equipment journal, suggests the unthinkable: Hank Aaron juiced during his great career that resulted in the all-time home run record now pursued by Barry Bonds.

The San Francisco Chronicle, in a May 3rd 2005 article quoted former Major League pitcher Tom House of the Atlanta Braves as saying that steroids were rampant in the game in the late '60s and throughout the '70s.

House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and 'whatever steroid' they could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey', House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs,

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed", he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them".

Congress suggested that Baseball hid a steroid problem. However, as you will read Bowie Kuhn suppressed that notion. After the jump, Protrade's incredible argument about Aaron's juice.

According to Rep. Henry A. Waxman in his March 17,2005 opening statement before the House Government Reform Committee:

"Congress first investigated drugs and professional sports, including steroids over 30 years ago. I think perhaps the only two people in the room who will remember this are me and Commissioner Selig, because I believe he became owner in 1970".

In 1973, the year I first ran for Congress, the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce concluded a year-long investigation that found--and I quote--"drug use exists...in all sports and levels of competition...In some instances, the danger of improper drug use--primarily amphetamines and anabolic steroids--can only be described as alarming". Bowie Kuhn, and the powers that be at the time, quietly squashed the entire ****** episode and with good reason: it would cast suspicions on an African-American slugger who was challenging one of baseball's most cherished records: The career record for home runs.

Compare Hank Aaron's stats at the beginning of his career and then notice how his HR% began to increase beginning when Hammerin' Hank was 37 years old.

HR% is defined as being the number of HRs per 100 ABs.

Age HRs HR%
33 44 7.3
34 39 6.5
35 29 4.8

Nothing unusual about these statistics; it is a typical profile of a slugger in decline as he ages. But then Hank began to undergo an 'enhancement.'

Age HRs HR%
36 44 8.0
37 38 7.4

What explains this spike at a latter age? Expansion? Perhaps. But then what happens?

Age HRs HR%
38 47 9.5
39 34 7.6

Hank...What's going on buddy? Aaron's HR% were TOPS in the NL in both 1971 and 1972. Hmm.

Age HRs HR%
40 40 10.2

Which leads us to 1973 when at age 40 in just 392 at bats, juiced 40 HR's for a HR% of 10.2. Once again TOPS in NL for the THIRD STRAIGHT YEAR and the HIGHEST HR% in the ENTIRE 23 year career of Hank Aaron.

Hank Aaron at 40 was not the only Atlanta Brave to hit 40 Hrs that season. Teammates Darrell Evans and Davey Johnson blasted 41 and 43 HRs respectively.

Darrell Evans

Year HRs HR%
1971 12 4.6
1972 19 4.5

1973 41 6.9

1974 25 4.4
1975 22 2.8

Notice a statistical anomaly? Let's see what Davey Johnson did.

Davey Johnson

Year HRs HR%
1971 18 3.5
1972 5 1.3

1973 43 7.7

1974 15 3.3
1975 Played 1 game
1976 Did not play MLB

Notice a statistical anomaly? It would be one thing for Hank Aaron to undergo an 'enhancement', but what are the odds that not one but TWO teammates would both have career years in HR's and HR% in the SAME YEAR as when a Congressional Committee issued its final report saying that anabolic steroids were rampant in the game? Why did Darrell Evans and Davey Johnson both experience career spikes in HR's only to return to earth the following year? And how did Hank finish up?

Age HRs HR%
41 20 5.9
42 12 2.6
43 10 3.7

So what happened? Enquiring minds want to know.

The 1996 Baltimore Orioles set at the time the team HR record for one season. Brady Anderson's 50 HR season was viewed suspiciously.

The manager of the 1996 Baltimore Orioles? Davey Johnson.

The only question remains: What did Bud Selig know and when did he know it?

Fay Vincent circulated a draft steroids policy in 1991. Selig knew that if the scab of steroids was picked off, the **** of the 1973 Atlanta Braves would be oozing all over the game. The scandal of Hank Aaron's HR record being tainted by steroids use would have been a PR disaster at the time and. personally, extremely painful to Bud Selig who, after all, is a long-time friend of Hank Aaron.

Hence the boardroom coup which ousted Fay Vincent and made Bud Selig 'Acting Commissioner', while still maintaining his position as the owner of the Milwaukee Brewers, a blatant conflict of interest.

So long as Bud Selig remains in charge of Major League Baseball, the American public will never get to the bottom of the steroids scandal which has sullied the game. He has too much of a personal vested interest in Hank Aaron.