HOF Dilemma: Get Clemens/Bonds signatures now, or wait until they are actually inducted?

[Mighty Bombjack]

Here is another way of looking at it.

Steroids have been a big problem in baseball. Ask Elmalo and he will tell you how many have and for how many decades. I think we can all agree on this.

There has not been a definitive way to handle the problem. I think we can agree on this too.

The ONE thing Mlb/the hall has power over is who gets elected. They let ONE in and they all can get in. WONT happen. Guys like Mcgwire, Bonds, Clemens etc. could have easily made it in w/o juicing. They XXXX the bed and now have to sleep in it.

I am sure being a big fan of any of these guys would make it hard to think otherwise and easily justify it as being in the end somewhat ok. The reality is it would be the worst thing the mlb could do and they know it.

All MLB can do is make someone hall-ineligible. They have not done that with roiders. To that end, voters can (and eventually will) vote in known steroid users. They cannot vote on those who gambled, because MLB rightfully views that as a different type of offense, one that is antithetical to the game as a game.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

All MLB can do is make someone hall-ineligible. They have not done that with roiders. To that end, voters can (and eventually will) vote in known steroid users. They cannot vote on those who gambled, because MLB rightfully views that as a different type of offense, one that is antithetical to the game as a game.

By suspending PED users, the MLB is also saying PEDs are antithetical to the game.

Certainly PEDs and gambling are both within the worst class of offense, the difference being that the MLB gives three strikes for PED use and one, I believe, for gambling.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

By suspending PED users, the MLB is also saying PEDs are antithetical to the game.

Certainly PEDs and gambling are both within the worst class of offense, the difference being that the MLB gives three strikes for PED use and one, I believe, for gambling.

Yet not so much that the Hall voters cannot change their minds, which they eventually will (even if it perhaps takes new voters).

How long were Bonds' and Clemens' suspensions, anyway?

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

By suspending PED users, the MLB is also saying PEDs are antithetical to the game.

Certainly PEDs and gambling are both within the worst class of offense, the difference being that the MLB gives three strikes for PED use and one, I believe, for gambling.

And you left of my qualification of "as a game." Steroids do a lot of things, but the game is still a game with an unknown outcome. Can't say the same for the 1919 series.

 

[ronfromfresno]

I think Bonds and Clemens will get in, even if it takes the veteran's committee doing it.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Yet not so much that the Hall voters cannot change their minds, which they eventually will (even if it perhaps takes new voters).

How long were Bonds' and Clemens' suspensions, anyway?

Saying HOF voters will magically one day change their minds doesn't mean it will happen, the best indicator of future performance is past performance.

Regarding Bonds and Clemens, did Shoeless Joe really know what was going on? Yet he was also permanently suspended.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

And you left of my qualification of "as a game." Steroids do a lot of things, but the game is still a game with an unknown outcome. Can't say the same for the 1919 series.

You're forgetting that 'the game' is a team sport and the entire Sox team wasn't on the take.

You're also leaving out the fact that PEDs cause internal injury and as a result the MLB doesn't want to encourage its use as a matter of public policy that extends even beyond the game. This, plus the cheating aspect of PEDs make PED abuse in the same class of offense as gambling.

 

[predatorkj]

I think what's bound to happen is a roider will get in and then will be outed after the fact and then we will either see the first player ever to be kicked out of the hall or we will see the flood gates open. I'm thinking a guy from a smaller market team without the scouring media that is Boston, New York, or L.A.. And when the not so nice media of those cities as well as countless others start doing some digging, as opposed to the hometown newspaper, the lid will be ripped off. The Astros are a prime team for this to happen to. Better hope Biggio and Bagwell are clean.

 

[cjedmonton]

A sticker auto??? Now there's an idea...

 

[katieneack]

Does everyone really agree that what Rose did when he was done playing and was a manager is equivalent to what these other guys did while they were playing? I my mind, they are completely different. Rose should be judged for what he did while he was a player. I realize the voters have no say in this, but I just don't understand the ban from the Hall in his case. Do you think the voters would put Rose in if they had the option to?

Also, just a thought, does it matter that Bonds was clearly a hall of fame player already before he got juiced up? He won multiple MVP's before he ever got big.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Does everyone really agree that what Rose did when he was done playing and was a manager is equivalent to what these other guys did while they were playing? I my mind, they are completely different. Rose should be judged for what he did while he was a player. I realize the voters have no say in this, but I just don't understand the ban from the Hall in his case. Do you think the voters would put Rose in if they had the option to?

Also, just a thought, does it matter that Bonds was clearly a hall of fame player already before he got juiced up? He won multiple MVP's before he ever got big.

When one thinks about it, gambling goes most towards integrity, not towards stats. Are we to believe Rose's integrity was HOF caliber while he was a player? Don't forget that Rose was also a player-manager.

The question you ask brings up the notion that someone can be denied HOF entry after his playing days have ended. It makes me think that someone could be kicked out after being inducted.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Saying HOF voters will magically one day change their minds doesn't mean it will happen, the best indicator of future performance is past performance.

Regarding Bonds and Clemens, did Shoeless Joe really know what was going on? Yet he was also permanently suspended.

True, me saying does not make it true. And the past may be an indicator, but it is not a determiner. I am 100 percent certain that Bonds and Clemens will get in, but I have been wrong before, will be wrong again, and could be wrong now. We will see, but those who hold on to the past are often disappointed (see, for example, what's going to happen with gay marriage).

Did shoeless joe know? What we can prove is that he took money as part of a conspiracy. Ignorance of the law/rules is never an excuse, and gambling was threatening to destroy the game completely. Landis did the right thing, and anyone who is a part of the game and gambles on the game needs to leave the game forever. Anyone who disagrees should read up on the late 19th and early 20th century histories of the game. Start with Hal Chase.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

You're forgetting that 'the game' is a team sport and the entire Sox team wasn't on the take.

You're also leaving out the fact that PEDs cause internal injury and as a result the MLB doesn't want to encourage its use as a matter of public policy that extends even beyond the game. This, plus the cheating aspect of PEDs make PED abuse in the same class of offense as gambling.

To the first point: leaving gambling and tanking unpunished leads to a game that isn't a game; we would have pro wrestling. That messes with a sport and turns it to exhibition. The whole team wasn't in on it, but they would have been in 1920 if no repercussions had presented themselves. Again, Landis did the right thing and every commissioner since has upheld (hell, Kuhn banned Mantle and Mays for life for being employed by a casino after retirement. That was an overreaction, but one that represented MLB's determination to distance gambling as much as possible).

To the second point: Yeah, steroids are bad for people, and MLB wants people to know that they know that. That pales in comparison to how bad gambling is for a sport when its participants take part. You will never convince me (or MLB, which only started punishing its players for roids in 2004-they clearly LOVED it in 1998) otherwise. The two really aren't comparable as offenses.

 

[trauty]

It's really up to you. There are thousands of Hall of Fame pieces out there with Pete Rose's signature on them. If you believe they are hall of famers (and I personally do), then do it. Eventually they will get in. I'm sure there have already been steroid users inducted into the Hall, it's not like they just started making steroids in the 90's. Once one of these guys come clean, the doors will bust wide open.

 

[cjedmonton]

It's not so much that I HAVE to add them, but somehow, I feel like I'd be missing 2 titans from the era.

For now, I'll just turn my attention toward other HOFers.

 

[SilverandBlack]

I too agree that if any 'roids guys will get in it will be Bonds and Clemens. With a piece like yours I would stick to only guys that are in or are no question. Bonds and Clemens are the best of their generation, but they could possibly never get in and then I think that would take away from your piece.