HOF discussion: Andruw Jones

[kdailey4315]

I actually agree with all yoour yes/nos for HOF. I would not vote for Frank Thomas, but I realize the majority of voters will. I agree that Schilling and Pedro should get in.

How in the world can you justify Frank Thomas not being in the HOF?

300 lifetime hitter
521 HR's
Just under 2500 hits
1700 RBI
2X MVP

 

[Fandruw25]

I actually agree with all yoour yes/nos for HOF. I would not vote for Frank Thomas, but I realize the majority of voters will. I agree that Schilling and Pedro should get in.

How in the world can you justify Frank Thomas not being in the HOF?

300 lifetime hitter
521 HR's
Just under 2500 hits
1700 RBI
2X MVP

cause he beats up little kids :lol:

http://www.funnyhub.com/videos/pages/ba ... ys-ad.html

 

[donrusscrusademan]

I actually agree with all yoour yes/nos for HOF. I would not vote for Frank Thomas, but I realize the majority of voters will. I agree that Schilling and Pedro should get in.

How in the world can you justify Frank Thomas not being in the HOF?

300 lifetime hitter
521 HR's
Just under 2500 hits
1700 RBI
2X MVP

the big part youre missing is the walks. led the league how many times? he was a beast. if he could have stayed healthy he might of passed Bonds in walks.

 

[pigskincardboard]

I actually agree with all yoour yes/nos for HOF. I would not vote for Frank Thomas, but I realize the majority of voters will. I agree that Schilling and Pedro should get in.

How in the world can you justify Frank Thomas not being in the HOF?

300 lifetime hitter
521 HR's
Just under 2500 hits
1700 RBI
2X MVP

the big part youre missing is the walks. led the league how many times? he was a beast. if he could have stayed healthy he might of passed Bonds in walks.

971 G played at First Base.

I'm totally for Frank Thomas, but people seem to place too little weight on defense. I don't care if you regress frank thomas following a normal age-decline curve, because from what I see Paul Konerko was purrty good. Frank Thomas may have not been good enough to play first for the Sox, but he was, from everything I can wrap my head around, good enough to play first base.

However, that'll bring us into the land of assumptions where we don't actually look at stats, but rather what could've been given opportunity.

Jermaine Dye 4 MVP.

 

[bdrr]

Fred McGriff isn't going to get in with 486 or w/e, and he was solid for much longer than Jones.

 

[markakis8]

Interesting article to read for those that are calling Andruw Jones lazy still:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

 

[sdsportsfan1214]

If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

And Cal Ripken won an MVP when his team finished 6th. But don't get me started on that one....

And Andruw will be in the hall for being one of the best defensive CF of all time and his power if he gets to 500 HR. Why can't anyone see that?

So it's okay to hit .225 over a span of 3000 plate appearances if you are an amazing defensive SS and popular player, but it's not okay to hit .158 in one season when you don't even have enough plate appearances to qualify for a competing batting average?

Ozzie is in the all b/c of his supberb defense and "popularity" (which IMO is a horsecrap reason). Andruw is probably one of the top 3 defensive CF of all time and had raw power enough to put him in an elite group of around 30 players EVER.

I mean that's what you are saying. Ozzie's BA is excused b/c of his supberb defense and popularity. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I totally agree with markakis8 with his line on Ozzie, re defense and popularity. This always gets me into my why isn't Alan Trammell in the HOF when no hit, all glove Ozzie gets in first ballot and Alan barely gets a vote here and there. He could field AND hit! Ozzie got in on his popularity and backflips.

But then it comes down to more than stats. Key word is "FAME". Not the hall of Stats, not the hall of Gold gloves, not the hall of sportscenter, its the hall of FAME. The whole ball of wax is taken into account. Hall of Fame discussions are fun to read through - who is deserving, who isn't, etc. One of the better ways I have found over the years is to simply say a players name and ask - are they a Hall of Famer? yes or no? You'd be surprised how many people who are very good players - just don't get a yes answer when you do it. I'll take a few off the top of my head.... (and if you have to stew on it - then it should automatically lean towards no)

Andruw Jones - no
Frank Thomas - yes
Ken Griffey Jr - yes
Gary Sheffield - no
Jeff Bagwell - no
Pedro Martinez - yes
Curt Schilling - yes
Jim Edmonds - no
Jim Thome - no

I think you're wrong on Thome, he will make the Hof

 

[bdrr]

I think Thome is out, I think Bagwell is in.

Thome was the proto-type HR or strike out guy. He was never dominant. You feared Bagwell when he came to the plate. Thome, you weren't so worried.

 

[jgro85]

I actually agree with all yoour yes/nos for HOF. I would not vote for Frank Thomas, but I realize the majority of voters will. I agree that Schilling and Pedro should get in.

How in the world can you justify Frank Thomas not being in the HOF?

300 lifetime hitter
521 HR's
Just under 2500 hits
1700 RBI
2X MVP

the big part youre missing is the walks. led the league how many times? he was a beast. if he could have stayed healthy he might of passed Bonds in walks.

971 G played at First Base.

I'm totally for Frank Thomas, but people seem to place too little weight on defense. I don't care if you regress frank thomas following a normal age-decline curve, because from what I see Paul Konerko was purrty good. Frank Thomas may have not been good enough to play first for the Sox, but he was, from everything I can wrap my head around, good enough to play first base.

However, that'll bring us into the land of assumptions where we don't actually look at stats, but rather what could've been given opportunity.

Jermaine Dye 4 MVP.

That's because defense doesn't actually matter as much as people think it does, especially at a position like 1B.

 

[zach]

Andruw Jones - no
Frank Thomas - yes
Ken Griffey Jr - yes
Gary Sheffield - no
Jeff Bagwell - no
Pedro Martinez - yes
Curt Schilling - yes
Jim Edmonds - no
Jim Thome - no

I don't really agree with Schilling but recognize that his numbers may be enough to get him through. All else I think you're spot on with.

 

[markakis8]

Per ESPN, Andruw Jones is just as worthy of the HOF as Derek Jeter.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/in ... %3d5971285

 

[nyc3]

Per ESPN, Andruw Jones is just as worthy of the HOF as Derek Jeter.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/in ... %3d5971285

Which means zilch espn also reported arod was going to be part owner of the cubs when he is traded to them.

He dont belong in the HOF.

 

[bodiaz]

I say no, but he is one of the greatest defensive CF's of all time. And OZzie got in on defense alone, Andruw has much better #s than Ozzie, so.....

This is my problem with Ozzie getting in! If you let him in then you have to let in other great defensive players with no offense. Perfect example would be Gary Pettis. The best defensive CF of his day, and stole as many bases as Ozzie. Couldn't hit a lick, and he probably didn't get one vote, and rightfully so! Yet Ozzie gets 91% first ballot?!?! Don't see why more people do not have a problem with this. Lets add these great defenders to the Hall of Fame: JT Snow, Mike Matheny, Yadier Molina, Don Mattingly, Jose Lind, Rey Ordonez, Spike Owen, Ed Brinkman, Aurillo Rodriguez, And countless centerfielders. See my point?

 

[thefatguy]

Lets add these great defenders to the Hall of Fame: JT Snow, Mike Matheny, Yadier Molina, Don Mattingly, Jose Lind, Rey Ordonez, Spike Owen, Ed Brinkman, Aurillo Rodriguez, And countless centerfielders. See my point?

No. Ozzie may be the best defensive SS EVER. Not just a great defender.

He's also a 15X Sll Star, while NONE of the other players you mention COMBINED have 15 AS appearances.

 

[blitzerlover]

I say no, but he is one of the greatest defensive CF's of all time. And OZzie got in on defense alone, Andruw has much better #s than Ozzie, so.....

This is my problem with Ozzie getting in! If you let him in then you have to let in other great defensive players with no offense. Perfect example would be Gary Pettis. The best defensive CF of his day, and stole as many bases as Ozzie. Couldn't hit a lick, and he probably didn't get one vote, and rightfully so! Yet Ozzie gets 91% first ballot?!?! Don't see why more people do not have a problem with this. Lets add these great defenders to the Hall of Fame: JT Snow, Mike Matheny, Yadier Molina, Don Mattingly, Jose Lind, Rey Ordonez, Spike Owen, Ed Brinkman, Aurillo Rodriguez, And countless centerfielders. See my point?

We get it. You hate Ozzie Smith.

 

[bodiaz]

Lets add these great defenders to the Hall of Fame: JT Snow, Mike Matheny, Yadier Molina, Don Mattingly, Jose Lind, Rey Ordonez, Spike Owen, Ed Brinkman, Aurillo Rodriguez, And countless centerfielders. See my point?

No. Ozzie may be the best defensive SS EVER. Not just a great defender.

He's also a 15X Sll Star, while NONE of the other players you mention COMBINED have 15 AS appearances.

All Star apperances are fan votes! And had he played in the AL during his career, he would have been behind Ripken, Yount, Trammell, and Tony Fernandez! Guess he got lucky to be traded to St Louis! Because had he stayed in San Diego, or was traded to another small market, he had no chance to become the back flipping clown that got him in. Oh, and J T Snow may be the best defensive 1B of all time. Bob Boone was amoung the top defensive Cs, so on, so on, so on.

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

We get it. You hate Ozzie Smith.

Na, its just obvious to him that Oz could never haved used steroids

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Lets add these great defenders to the Hall of Fame: JT Snow, Mike Matheny, Yadier Molina, Don Mattingly, Jose Lind, Rey Ordonez, Spike Owen, Ed Brinkman, Aurillo Rodriguez, And countless centerfielders. See my point?

No. Ozzie may be the best defensive SS EVER. Not just a great defender.

He's also a 15X Sll Star, while NONE of the other players you mention COMBINED have 15 AS appearances.

All Star apperances are fan votes! And had he played in the AL during his career, he would have been behind Ripken, Yount, Trammell, and Tony Fernandez! Guess he got lucky to be traded to St Louis! Because had he stayed in San Diego, or was traded to another small market, he had no chance to become the back flipping clown that got him in. Oh, and J T Snow may be the best defensive 1B of all time. Bob Boone was amoung the top defensive Cs, so on, so on, so on.

You could just accept the fact that Ozzie is beloved. Ain't no stats for that.

 

[thefatguy]

All Star apperances are fan votes! And had he played in the AL during his career, he would have been behind Ripken, Yount, Trammell, and Tony Fernandez! Guess he got lucky to be traded to St Louis! Because had he stayed in San Diego, or was traded to another small market, he had no chance to become the back flipping clown that got him in. Oh, and J T Snow may be the best defensive 1B of all time. Bob Boone was amoung the top defensive Cs, so on, so on, so on.

And had Mr * not taken roids, he'd be stuck at 500 HR's still, and not be considered a pariah.

(I know it's a fan vote, the fans usually know a good player when they see one)

NL record for votes in All Star Fan balloting in a career: 27,597,904 votes


BTW, maybe you should take the poster of Snow down from above your bed...we get it...you love JT. That poster is probably snowing down on you it's been up there since 93....

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

All Star apperances are fan votes! And had he played in the AL during his career, he would have been behind Ripken, Yount, Trammell, and Tony Fernandez! Guess he got lucky to be traded to St Louis! Because had he stayed in San Diego, or was traded to another small market, he had no chance to become the back flipping clown that got him in. Oh, and J T Snow may be the best defensive 1B of all time. Bob Boone was amoung the top defensive Cs, so on, so on, so on.

I know it's a fan vote, the fans usually know a good player when they see one)

They also DEFINE the word fame (as in Hall of Fame)