Is Ichiro Suzuki overrated?

[Topnotchsy]

Before you stone me for asking, hear me out.

Obviously Ichiro is one of the greatest contact hitters we have seen in a long time.

With that said...

Ichiro has never had more than 50 XBH's in a season, so (as is known) power is not his game. Most of his hits are singles, many of the infield variety. Despite his high hit totals, because he rarely walks, his OBP is not nearly as high as one might have guessed. A career .377 is certainly not too shabby, but because he lacks power, reaching base is probably the area where he offers the most value (though his defense and base stealing should obviously not be overlooked are among the best.) While for most players hits are better than walks, in Ichiro's case where many of the hits are in the infield, there's really no difference as there's no real chance for a runner to advance an extra base.

Just to offer a comparison, Derek Jeter has a career .388 OBP.

I'm not saying that Ichiro is not a great player, but it just seems like he gets more credit than a hitter with a lifetime .811 OPS deserves.

Thoughts?

 

[Pine Tar]

Not overrated for me he is just a consistent hitter for me, that not even every Major league player can say.

 

[Sly]

Before you stone me for asking, hear me out.

Obviously Ichiro is one of the greatest contact hitters we have seen in a long time.

With that said...

Ichiro has never had more than 50 XBH's in a season, so (as is known) power is not his game. Most of his hits are singles, many of the infield variety. Despite his high hit totals, because he rarely walks, his OBP is not nearly as high as one might have guessed. A career .377 is certainly not too shabby, but because he lacks power, reaching base is probably the area where he offers the most value (though his defense and base stealing should obviously not be overlooked are among the best.) While for most players hits are better than walks, in Ichiro's case where many of the hits are in the infield, there's really no difference as there's no real chance for a runner to advance an extra base.

Just to offer a comparison, Derek Jeter has a career .388 OBP.

I'm not saying that Ichiro is not a great player, but it just seems like he gets more credit than a hitter with a lifetime .811 OPS deserves.

Thoughts?

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

 

[Topnotchsy]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

 

[TraderJake]

Speed, defense...

 

[xcantgobackx]

I personally think he's fantastic but I certainly would not flame you for thinking this way. In fact, I've heard more Ichiro criticism recently on these boards than I would expect and I understand everyone's point. I've personally always been more of a fan of his style of play, than of say power hitters. Hence my love for Tony Gwynn.


That being said, you definitely have an argument. I feel it's fair to say some people make him out bigger than he is.

 

[dooly]

I would say he is overrated by some people because of the number of hits. As you said, his obp is relatively low in comparison to his avg. He is a very good player, but I would put him a step below the true stars of the game like Pujols, Mauer, HanRam, etc. His career ops is good but not great for a cf (worse as a rf), but he does gain value as a great fielder.

Also, i never understood when people say guys with lots of hits (200+ a season) are "true or pure hitters". To me hitting isn't all about contact and high avg. To me hitting is being able to pick your pitches (thus improving your obp) and hitting for value (with xbh).

 

[matfanofold]

My thoughts are your way off base. In no way is he over rated. After re-reading your post, you are basing your stance simply due to a lack of power one way or another. Ichiro is a hit machine, a run machine, a gold glove, has great speed and agility, and one of the few pure talents in the game, not to mention a lovable player.

Ichiro, if rated as great, is spot on.

 

[brouthercard]

Ichiro is as over-rated as being a Japanese player in the MLB is over-rated.

 

[andyduke86]

Overrated? Yes. A great player? Yes.

 

[Sly]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

 

[daveyou]

nope

he's underrated

dave

 

[dooly]

Another note...crawford has had a very similar season to ichiro, but he doesn't get nearly the same amount of attention (due to several reasons, but a big one being that hits and avg are highly overrated). In fact, if you happen to look into sabermetric fielding stats like uzr/150, crawford has been a far superior fielder this year as well.

 

[bradical]

Every player on a team has a different role. As the prototypical lead-off hitter in the MLB, Ichiro does just as he is suppose to do. Get on base, and score runs - both to which you will find Ichiro's name atop the Top 10 since he came across the pond to play.

For me, I would side on the fact that Ichiro is vastly underrated as a player. In our day and age of the glorified long ball, fans quickly forget the basics for the game and what a player with superb mechanics and skill actually bring to the team.

 

[dooly]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

Jeter has advantage in the 3 biggest stats though in OBP, SLG, OPS. Also, this comes as a shortstop. Position scarcity is very important. Ichiro of course has the advantage in speed and fielding his postion but Jeter has been one of the best offensive shortstops throughout his career.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

I think few look at Jeter as one of the "best in game" the way they look at Ichiro.

With that said, you've offered a pretty unfair comparison considering Jeter has put up many more seasons (something that can not be completely ignored.) Based on that comparison I'm not sure I would take Ichiro over Jeter even in those seasons (the hits are nice, but the difference in walks makes up for a lot of the difference in hits, and Jeter has him is XBH's and all the slash categories.

 

[xcantgobackx]

I think people often misunderstand the word "overrated" to mean "bad".

 

[Sly]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

Jeter has advantage in the 3 biggest stats though in OBP, SLG, OPS. Also, this comes as a shortstop. Position scarcity is very important. Ichiro of course has the advantage in speed and fielding his postion but Jeter has been one of the best offensive shortstops throughout his career.

And there is more to a baseball player than those three stats.

What a player does at the plate, advancing runners, hitting with RISP, what they do on the basepaths, what they do in the field. And most of those things, Ichiro does better than Jeter.

Oh, and with RISP, Ichiro has Jeter in those three "key" stats. Same with 2 outs with RISP.

Ultimately it comes down to this...just because a player is not a power hitter, does that mean he's "overrated", because that is always people's argument for Ichiro being overrated.

 

[daveyou]

I think people often misunderstand the word "overrated" to mean "bad".

it's more to the fact that respect should be given to someone who has accomplished hitting 200+ hits 9 years in a row, lifetime avg of .333 and about to hit over .350+ for the 4th time in 9 years

not too many underrated, overrated, superstars, scrubs, hof'ers, etc can say they've accomplished what ichiro has done so far in his career

honestly, when he went down at the beginning of the season, i thought this was the start to his decline due to his age and mileage. he is 35-36 years old so he's getting up there in age. however, even after missing those 7-8 games from the start of the season and missing another 7-8 games a few months back, putting up 200+ hits and batting .350+ has actually proven to me that he is one of the best players in modern sports

dave

 

[dooly]

Pete Rose had a career .784 OPS...was he an overrated hitter?

That would depend on whether or not one viewed Rose as one of the greatest hitters of all time...

And many do.

Now, you wanted to bring up the Jeter comparison, so let's look at the numbers of Jeter vs. Ichiro from ages 27-35:

Ichiro vs. Jeter
2022 vs. 1735 Hits
379 vs. 453 XBH
970 vs. 968 Runs
.377 vs. .384 OBP
.434 vs. .453 SLG
.811 vs. .837 OPS
43 vs. 147 GIDP
411 vs. 543 BB
594 vs. 893 K
341 vs. 197 SB

Sure, from a "power" perspective, Jeter has put up better numbers...but despite Ichiro's lack of XBH, his OBP, SLG and OPS is not much worse than Jeter's. Ichiro strikes out a lot less, grounds in to a lot fewer DP's, steals more bases.

So I guess I ask this...is Jeter overrated??

Jeter has advantage in the 3 biggest stats though in OBP, SLG, OPS. Also, this comes as a shortstop. Position scarcity is very important. Ichiro of course has the advantage in speed and fielding his postion but Jeter has been one of the best offensive shortstops throughout his career.

And there is more to a baseball player than those three stats.

What a player does at the plate, advancing runners, hitting with RISP, what they do on the basepaths, what they do in the field. And most of those things, Ichiro does better than Jeter.

Oh, and with RISP, Ichiro has Jeter in those three "key" stats. Same with 2 outs with RISP.

Ultimately it comes down to this...just because a player is not a power hitter, does that mean he's "overrated", because that is always people's argument for Ichiro being overrated.

I didn't look into RISP stats (I would actually be interested if you know a site with RISP stats for a players career) but I'll take your word for it. Nowhere did I say that a person has to be a power hitter to be a good player. I also said he is overrated because he is often talked about as if he is among the elite players in the game, but I don't believe he is.

His problems come from a lack of walks and a relatively empty avg. His OBP is good but it's not at the level of many of the top offensive players and for a lead off hitter, this should be even more important. You don't have to be a power hitter to be good, but extra base hits are better than singles, there is no argument about that. You also didn't address the biggest factor in Jeter's value over ichiro, his position. Look at any stats that incorporates level above replacement at his position, and you'll see that Jeter's numbers as a SS are very impressive.

I actually like ichiro and am pretty indifferent about jeter. I just find it interesting that so many people are caught up on number of hits without putting it into context (ie at the sacrifice of walking or slugging)