is it wrong

[sportscardtheory]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

 

[predatorkj]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

Just because you haven't seen it or neither have I doesn't mean its wrong or somebody wouldn't do it if they figured they had a chance to do something.The thing is...you seem like an intelligent guy but your looking at what I am saying all wrong.I am not advocating going out there and trying to do something just for the sake of screwing up a pitchers no-no.I am saying you have to do whatever you can to give your team a chance to get back in the game and win.

I even stated why it might be a good idea to try a bunt.You screw with the pitchers mind and they walk another guy or give up a few hits and then somebody comes in and crashes one over the fence and all of a sudden they have to bring in a reliever who may or may not give up more runs and all of a sudden you come from facing a bad loss to potentially tying or winning the game.Is it that hard to see or understand?

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

You know, my first instinct in this thread was (as I answered above) that there is nothing wrong with it if it is done out of strategy alone. You have put it in different terms here, and you have made me rethink a little bit. I myself have never seen a no-hitter either, and would love to witness one live from beginning to end. Who are these games for? They are competitions, and they should be legit (no one wants this to become pro wrestling). But I always find myself bringing up the entertainment aspect of sports whenever I join a steroids debate. These games are played primarily for their entertainment value, and have been for a long time. That may piss you off, but it doesn't make it any less true. In that sense, there are times when getting a base hit may take a back seat to adding drama to a game.

I will have to ponder this further...

 

[Mozzie22]

[quote="predatorkj":hlg0zvb3]

I am not trying to be a dick to anyone here but seriously guys...come on.Games are suddenly played with the benefit of the other team in mind?When did this start to happen?Did you guys ever play baseball?Did you enjoy getting shutout?Well according to your logic you probably just sat down at home plate so the dude could buzz three straight strikes by you so they could look even better right?Uh dude...no you probably didn't.What scares me is there are certain values passed down from father to son.I sincerely hope you guys aren't passing these down to your sons.That's why we no longer have dodgeball at our public schools.Everybody needs to be nice and a winner.I can certainly say...not one of you would have ever enjoyed being on a team with me.

The OP is talking the LAST out of the game and down a ton of runs. I wouldn't want to be your teammate if you seriously would go out there and lay down a bunt just to screw up the no-hitter. And as for teaching children integrity and respect for others, I can't see how you could be against that. Because doing something to spite someone else is certainly not a value I would cherish.

But that's what your not understanding.I wouldn't do it to spite anyone.My main focus as well as the other teams main focus is to win the game.However you can.I am totally all for screwing up their plans when it comes to this.And no...I don't want to get no hit or shutout either.But if you go up there your main focus is to win and the other teams focus is for you to lose.The thought of a no hitter or a shutout should never enter your mind.It has nothing to do with what you're trying to accomplish.It really doesn't.

I think this reminds me a lot of that bit on real sports .I think that people are becoming softer when it comes to sports.You play to win.They have mercy rules at least in high school and whatnot.We'd go out there and drop 20 runs in two innings and they'd call it a game.But just because we were better or they were overmatched did not mean that we didn't do it again and again.You play hard every play.Do whatever you can.I have a hard time thinking professionals would be any different.Another thing to keep in mind is if that pitcher is throwing a no-no and its almost complete...maybe a bunt will get in his head and all of a sudden you can get some more guys on base and now you go from being way down to possibly coming back.

But from the sounds of it a lot of ya'll would be a "gentleman" about it.Me...I'd rather be a winner as long as I won within the rules.

I don't know what game you are talking about, but the game of baseball has always been known for it's integrity. From the mid-1800s to now, a player would NOT do that, and if he did, he would be treated harshly by the opposing team AND his teammates. That's baseball. Like I said, I don't know what sport you are talking about. You seem to be talking about some societal issues that have nothing to do with Major League Baseball.

So you're telling me the game of baseball has always been played with keeping the opposing teams no hitters or shutouts going in mind before every strategical move?Wow...I had no idea.Man...I knew I was missing something.... ::facepalm:: :lol:

And yeah...I'll grant you not all societal issues have to do with baseball but when people start saying a team should cramp up and not try to do their best all 9 innings...I think we do see that in society and it blows.

Just like I told the other person - There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.[/quote:hlg0zvb3]

There may be unwritten rules in baseball but some of them are stupid. A WRITTEN rule in baseball is to try and get on base and score, it shouldn't matter how. If a pitcher is worried about it then he should defend against the bunt. This is like the "unwritten" mercy rulings in sports. If you are up by 50 with three minutes left keep shooting. The idea is to score as many points as possible.

 

[sportscardtheory]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

Just because you haven't seen it or neither have I doesn't mean its wrong or somebody wouldn't do it if they figured they had a chance to do something.The thing is...you seem like an intelligent guy but your looking at what I am saying all wrong.I am not advocating going out there and trying to do something just for the sake of screwing up a pitchers no-no.I am saying you have to do whatever you can to give your team a chance to get back in the game and win.

I even stated why it might be a good idea to try a bunt.You screw with the pitchers mind and they walk another guy or give up a few hits and then somebody comes in and crashes one over the fence and all of a sudden they have to bring in a reliever who may or may not give up more runs and all of a sudden you come from facing a bad loss to potentially tying or winning the game.Is it that hard to see or understand?

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Is this ever a good idea, with any number of hits accrued?

A better situation is: home team is down by one in the bottom of the ninth with one out (but no hits), and a player on first.

BUNT AWAY

 

[sportscardtheory]

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Is this ever a good idea, with any number of hits accrued?

A better situation is: home team is down by one in the bottom of the ninth with one out (but no hits), and a player on first.

BUNT AWAY

But that is out of context. The poll and OP asks a very specific question that we are spouting off opinions about.

 

[predatorkj]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

Just because you haven't seen it or neither have I doesn't mean its wrong or somebody wouldn't do it if they figured they had a chance to do something.The thing is...you seem like an intelligent guy but your looking at what I am saying all wrong.I am not advocating going out there and trying to do something just for the sake of screwing up a pitchers no-no.I am saying you have to do whatever you can to give your team a chance to get back in the game and win.

I even stated why it might be a good idea to try a bunt.You screw with the pitchers mind and they walk another guy or give up a few hits and then somebody comes in and crashes one over the fence and all of a sudden they have to bring in a reliever who may or may not give up more runs and all of a sudden you come from facing a bad loss to potentially tying or winning the game.Is it that hard to see or understand?

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Well he never said if it was only done to screw up the no hitter or just to try to get people on base.He did say and I quote "Get some momentum going".I would equate that with trying to come back and win the game.

Anyone's opinion can be flawed.But I don't think just because its never been done doesn't mean that people were following an unwritten rule.There are only so many that have ever happened and you have to wonder out of all of those...how many of the players up to bat actually would have had a chance bunting and getting on base with the bunt?That probably plays a big part.Its pretty easy to get thrown out on a bunt.Especially if they know you are squaring around to do so.The fact that they almost have a complete game no hitter is only going to make them react that much faster.Its not like an easy way to screw it up or anything.I think your going above and beyond the strategy involved here.


All I can say is this...put Michael Bourn up there in that situation and see what Cooper has him do.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Is this ever a good idea, with any number of hits accrued?

A better situation is: home team is down by one in the bottom of the ninth with one out (but no hits), and a player on first.

BUNT AWAY

But that is out of context. The poll and OP asks a very specific question that we are spouting off opinions about.

True, I'll try again.

You point out that no one has ever done this (the situation in the OP). I don't know that for a fact, but I buy it as a premise. I wonder how many times a team has bunted with two outs in ninth? It seems the context certainly dictates when it would be done, and it would seem to be rare indeed (though certainly not unimaginable).

 

[sportscardtheory]

[quote="sportscardtheory":1t23hmtq]
There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

Just because you haven't seen it or neither have I doesn't mean its wrong or somebody wouldn't do it if they figured they had a chance to do something.The thing is...you seem like an intelligent guy but your looking at what I am saying all wrong.I am not advocating going out there and trying to do something just for the sake of screwing up a pitchers no-no.I am saying you have to do whatever you can to give your team a chance to get back in the game and win.

I even stated why it might be a good idea to try a bunt.You screw with the pitchers mind and they walk another guy or give up a few hits and then somebody comes in and crashes one over the fence and all of a sudden they have to bring in a reliever who may or may not give up more runs and all of a sudden you come from facing a bad loss to potentially tying or winning the game.Is it that hard to see or understand?

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Well he never said if it was only done to screw up the no hitter or just to try to get people on base.He did say and I quote "Get some momentum going".I would equate that with trying to come back and win the game.

Anyone's opinion can be flawed.But I don't think just because its never been done doesn't mean that people were following an unwritten rule.There are only so many that have ever happened and you have to wonder out of all of those...how many of the players up to bat actually would have had a chance bunting and getting on base with the bunt?That probably plays a big part.Its pretty easy to get thrown out on a bunt.Especially if they know you are squaring around to do so.The fact that they almost have a complete game no hitter is only going to make them react that much faster.Its not like an easy way to screw it up or anything.I think your going above and beyond the strategy involved here.


All I can say is this...put Michael Bourn up there in that situation and see what Cooper has him do.[/quote:1t23hmtq]

Most likely managing his last season, if he had him bunt.

 

[predatorkj]

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Is this ever a good idea, with any number of hits accrued?

A better situation is: home team is down by one in the bottom of the ninth with one out (but no hits), and a player on first.

BUNT AWAY

It is if your hitters haven't been able to solidly touch the ball all night.You do what you have to do.If a humongus dude was going to kick your ass and you weighed like a buck 50 soaking wet and had no chance of being able to make it a level fight...are you going to go by the "unwritten rules" and take a pounding or are you gonna do what any self respecting and unsuicidal person would and drop down and throw in a very hard nut shot?Me...I'd go for the nut shot. :mrgreen:

 

[Mozzie22]

The problem with this unwritten rule is that it was probably thought up 80 years ago by some player that wanted to see a friend pitch a no hitter and got “screwed” out of seeing it by what he perceived to be a cheap way of getting on. The real problem with unwritten rules is that some are just plain dumb.
For instance, an unwritten rule in baseball is to not steal if you are up some indeterminate number of runs. This is moronic. Several times in baseball history, and once this year, teams have come back from 7, 8, or even 9 runs or more to win a game in the ninth inning.

Unwritten rules fall into a gray area but what is black and white is that a bunt is a hit, and getting a hit (in any manner) is the goal of a batter…period. This is not open to interpretation, this is an absolute fact.

 

[allstars]

Nobody has ever done it because it would be a stupid thing to do. The object is not to break up the no-no, it's to win the game lol...

 

[predatorkj]

[quote="predatorkj":1brbxk6k][quote="sportscardtheory":1brbxk6k]
There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

Just because you haven't seen it or neither have I doesn't mean its wrong or somebody wouldn't do it if they figured they had a chance to do something.The thing is...you seem like an intelligent guy but your looking at what I am saying all wrong.I am not advocating going out there and trying to do something just for the sake of screwing up a pitchers no-no.I am saying you have to do whatever you can to give your team a chance to get back in the game and win.

I even stated why it might be a good idea to try a bunt.You screw with the pitchers mind and they walk another guy or give up a few hits and then somebody comes in and crashes one over the fence and all of a sudden they have to bring in a reliever who may or may not give up more runs and all of a sudden you come from facing a bad loss to potentially tying or winning the game.Is it that hard to see or understand?

I understand completely. But the question is whether it is wrong to lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter with 2 outs in the ninth down by a large margin. 150+ years of baseball history tells us YES it is wrong, because it has, to my knowledge, never been attempted at the professional level. So unless you are arguing the entire run of baseball in American history has been played wrong for this long, I think you should admit your opinion could be flawed.

Well he never said if it was only done to screw up the no hitter or just to try to get people on base.He did say and I quote "Get some momentum going".I would equate that with trying to come back and win the game.

Anyone's opinion can be flawed.But I don't think just because its never been done doesn't mean that people were following an unwritten rule.There are only so many that have ever happened and you have to wonder out of all of those...how many of the players up to bat actually would have had a chance bunting and getting on base with the bunt?That probably plays a big part.Its pretty easy to get thrown out on a bunt.Especially if they know you are squaring around to do so.The fact that they almost have a complete game no hitter is only going to make them react that much faster.Its not like an easy way to screw it up or anything.I think your going above and beyond the strategy involved here.


All I can say is this...put Michael Bourn up there in that situation and see what Cooper has him do.[/quote:1brbxk6k]

Most likely managing his last season, if he had him bunt.[/quote:1brbxk6k]


So now you're telling me Drayton would fire him because of that?Because he did something to try to get a guy on base?Yeah...because the astros fans that pay all this outrageous money to watch the games love to see a no hitter thrown against them.Honestly man...you're digging a hole.All I can ask is...do you want a bigger shovel?

 

[predatorkj]

There are unwritten rules in baseball whether you like it or not, and there always has been. Deal with it, or go watch a football game.

Yes there are but rolling over has never been one of them.In baseball or football.Well...if you've been watching the games I have anyways.

I watch a lot of baseball, but have never been lucky enough to watch an entire no-hitter or perfect game. Tell me, has anyone ever tried to bunt on the last at-bat of the game of a no-hitter or perfect game? I doubt it... know why? Because it's frowned upon in a game full of integrity (certainly not as much as the old days, but the basis is still there).

You know, my first instinct in this thread was (as I answered above) that there is nothing wrong with it if it is done out of strategy alone. You have put it in different terms here, and you have made me rethink a little bit. I myself have never seen a no-hitter either, and would love to witness one live from beginning to end. Who are these games for? They are competitions, and they should be legit (no one wants this to become pro wrestling). But I always find myself bringing up the entertainment aspect of sports whenever I join a steroids debate. These games are played primarily for their entertainment value, and have been for a long time. That may piss you off, but it doesn't make it any less true. In that sense, there are times when getting a base hit may take a back seat to adding drama to a game.

I will have to ponder this further...

Baseball has never really needed a spectacle to attract fans.Nothing particularly great is going on right now and people still, even with the economy, go watch the games.Yeah the homerun race between big mac and sammy helped a lot but baseball never has and never should be considered entertainment for entertainments sake.Its a game.Its played whether you like it or not.Baseball is not going to change the game itself to attract more fans nor should it.Happenings in the game may or may not attract more fans but the game should never change for that aspect ever.

 

[sportscardtheory]

So now you're telling me Drayton would fire him because of that?Because he did something to try to get a guy on base?Yeah...because the astros fans that pay all this outrageous money to watch the games love to see a no hitter thrown against them.Honestly man...you're digging a hole.All I can ask is...do you want a bigger shovel?

I'M digging a hole? You are the one questioning the way 150+ years of baseball has been played, lol. Do you want to borrow my dump truck?

 

[predatorkj]

The problem with this unwritten rule is that it was probably thought up 80 years ago by some player that wanted to see a friend pitch a no hitter and got “screwed” out of seeing it by what he perceived to be a cheap way of getting on. The real problem with unwritten rules is that some are just plain dumb.
For instance, an unwritten rule in baseball is to not steal if you are up some indeterminate number of runs. This is moronic. Several times in baseball history, and once this year, teams have come back from 7, 8, or even 9 runs or more to win a game in the ninth inning.

Unwritten rules fall into a gray area but what is black and white is that a bunt is a hit, and getting a hit (in any manner) is the goal of a batter…period. This is not open to interpretation, this is an absolute fact.

Yeah...I agree.I really think its your sole job.Like I said...a no hitter being thrown should really not enter your mind whenever your batting.Because it has nothing to do with your job.And teams can come back if they try.You press all game every game.You don't ever want to be that guy who had a big lead only to give it asll up because you slackened your game up.

 

[predatorkj]

So now you're telling me Drayton would fire him because of that?Because he did something to try to get a guy on base?Yeah...because the astros fans that pay all this outrageous money to watch the games love to see a no hitter thrown against them.Honestly man...you're digging a hole.All I can ask is...do you want a bigger shovel?

I'M digging a hole? You are the one questioning the way 150+ years of baseball is played, lol. Do you want to borrow my dump truck?

Nah...the dump truck only dumps the dirt.I need something to dig.Got a back hoe?


I am not questioning the way the game is played.You're questioning a batter trying to get on base which, if I recall, also has never been an object of debate.

 

[sportscardtheory]

So now you're telling me Drayton would fire him because of that?Because he did something to try to get a guy on base?Yeah...because the astros fans that pay all this outrageous money to watch the games love to see a no hitter thrown against them.Honestly man...you're digging a hole.All I can ask is...do you want a bigger shovel?

I'M digging a hole? You are the one questioning the way 150+ years of baseball is played, lol. Do you want to borrow my dump truck?

Nah...the dump truck only dumps the dirt.I need something to dig.Got a back hoe?


I am not questioning the way the game is played.You're questioning a batter trying to get on base which, if I recall, also has never been an object of debate.

No, we are discussing a question within a context and you are answering out of context to prove your "point". Obviously a guy is going to try and get a hit. It's the HOW in this PARTICULAR situation we are discussing. There is the right way, the way it has been done for 150+ years, and then there is your way.

 

[sportscardtheory]

predatorkj, in essence what you are arguing is a matter of principal versus "doing what you set out to do". Imagine you are going to the bank to take out some money, so it is clear, your objective is to take out money. You get to the door at the same time as a little old lady. What you are implying, is that it is OKAY to not hold the door for her and let her go in line in front of you. Of course you don't HAVE to, but it's a matter of principals/values/morals. Some people would hold the door, and others wouldn't because their goal is more important. You will still get to go into the bank and get your money, just like the hitter will still swing at the pitches. I guess maybe you would let the door hit the lady in the face while you walk by her, because what you are doing is far more important..