Leaf Best of Baseball is out!

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

[quote="Leaf":1ri4vm2s][quote="Boylen33":1ri4vm2s]I think the price drop is becuase the product blows. You have a very, very good chance of busting a box and not even making half your money back. Here's a good rule of thumb I wish companies would follow: If an individual is still alive, they SHOULD NOT have a cut signature. Half the cut sig checklist is players who are alive and well.

With all respect, how do you or anyone else know if it blows?

There is no checklist.
At this point, only I know what is in the product.

Once you open some (obviously not happening), feel free to come on and share an opinion based in fact rather than speculation.
BG

p.s.- cuts of living people and stickers of living people are the same thing. The only difference is the transparency of the medium.

Hey.

Where are your NPNs, you're like 10 products in, and I haven't seen a single NPN yet all the sales sheets say CHECK THE WEBSITE.

I eagerly await entering these as I've been waiting since the Strasburg Super product.

We hold a limited amount of each product for which we deem an NPN necessary.
These products generally are those with autographs or game used inserted at a random rate (not in every pack).
I will see that my team puts a generic link on the site with NPN info.
BG

There is no limited, there is only equal odds as stated with purchase.

There is no "necessary" there is only a product that relies on chance and products that do not rely on chance.

Please inform me as to the proper request platform for attaining the winners of these contests because that's exactly what I'll be doing.

1> Unfortunately, we do not make available lists of our customer (for obvious competitive reasons).

2> YES there is a limited quantity available of cards for each release... The law, nor any reasonable person, expects any company of making available NPN quantities equal to its print run... That ludicrous and cannot even be taken seriously.... EVERY COMPANY HAS A LIMITED SUPPLY, IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOU ARE MISTAKEN.

3> Yes, we believe "necessary" is an element. If you get one presidential cut signature per pack, there is not a CHANCE you will receive one... you will! If we insert 1 auto in every 5 packs, then we send out inserts (in this case, autos) at that rate WHILE SUPPLIES LAST. If you dont agree, send the company that supplies bubble gum machines a NPN request since there is a chance you will get red vs. yellow vs. ????....

4> For the record, we do not in any way concede that the purchase of our many of our products constitute "chance", nor do we consider No Purchase Necessary a "contest".
While we do not feel a legal obligation, we offer this as a program for the sole benefit of those customers who for one reason or another are unable to participate in enjoying a particular release.

BG

p.s.- on a personal note, I believe customers who abuse NPN programs that are offered do so at the detriment of collectors worldwide, as the companies build these costs into what paying collectors pay for products.[/quote:1ri4vm2s]

Your utter disregard or blatant ignorance of the law is a joke.[/quote:1ri4vm2s]

Chaset v. Fleer/Skybox International
Claims were dismissed as court found no "harm" done to consumers. The promises of products' advertising were delievered. The sheer "potential" to pull an insert card has value despite the outcome of your attempt to pull one.

Frankly, most of our products do not have the lottery element in that you clearly get a defined number of chase cards in every box.

However I am going to review these suggestions to see how we can improve our program in future. Thanks for your input.
BG

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Someone worried about risk/making their money back should either not buy the product or see the kinds of breaks others are getting before deciding to make a purchase.

Checklists are for set collectors, but it seems this isn't a product set collectors could go after anyway.

 

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Someone worried about risk/making their money back should either not buy the product or see the kinds of breaks others are getting before deciding to make a purchase.

Checklists are for set collectors, but it seems this isn't a product set collectors could go after anyway.

And as such, we have released the full and complete checklist of cut signatures in the product as that is the only brand new original uncatolgued previously content in this product. All other cards are previously catalogued and their mutual inclusion does not constitute a "set" in which all cards belong (and for which a checklist is traditionally issued).

BG

 

[seitas]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

[quote="pigskincardboard":3pgcifdr][quote="Leaf":3pgcifdr][quote="Boylen33":3pgcifdr]I think the price drop is becuase the product blows. You have a very, very good chance of busting a box and not even making half your money back. Here's a good rule of thumb I wish companies would follow: If an individual is still alive, they SHOULD NOT have a cut signature. Half the cut sig checklist is players who are alive and well.

With all respect, how do you or anyone else know if it blows?

There is no checklist.
At this point, only I know what is in the product.

Once you open some (obviously not happening), feel free to come on and share an opinion based in fact rather than speculation.
BG

p.s.- cuts of living people and stickers of living people are the same thing. The only difference is the transparency of the medium.

Hey.

Where are your NPNs, you're like 10 products in, and I haven't seen a single NPN yet all the sales sheets say CHECK THE WEBSITE.

I eagerly await entering these as I've been waiting since the Strasburg Super product.

We hold a limited amount of each product for which we deem an NPN necessary.
These products generally are those with autographs or game used inserted at a random rate (not in every pack).
I will see that my team puts a generic link on the site with NPN info.
BG

There is no limited, there is only equal odds as stated with purchase.

There is no "necessary" there is only a product that relies on chance and products that do not rely on chance.

Please inform me as to the proper request platform for attaining the winners of these contests because that's exactly what I'll be doing.

1> Unfortunately, we do not make available lists of our customer (for obvious competitive reasons).

2> YES there is a limited quantity available of cards for each release... The law, nor any reasonable person, expects any company of making available NPN quantities equal to its print run... That ludicrous and cannot even be taken seriously.... EVERY COMPANY HAS A LIMITED SUPPLY, IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOU ARE MISTAKEN.

3> Yes, we believe "necessary" is an element. If you get one presidential cut signature per pack, there is not a CHANCE you will receive one... you will! If we insert 1 auto in every 5 packs, then we send out inserts (in this case, autos) at that rate WHILE SUPPLIES LAST. If you dont agree, send the company that supplies bubble gum machines a NPN request since there is a chance you will get red vs. yellow vs. ????....

4> For the record, we do not in any way concede that the purchase of our many of our products constitute "chance", nor do we consider No Purchase Necessary a "contest".
While we do not feel a legal obligation, we offer this as a program for the sole benefit of those customers who for one reason or another are unable to participate in enjoying a particular release.

BG

p.s.- on a personal note, I believe customers who abuse NPN programs that are offered do so at the detriment of collectors worldwide, as the companies build these costs into what paying collectors pay for products.[/quote:3pgcifdr]

Your utter disregard or blatant ignorance of the law is a joke.[/quote:3pgcifdr]

Your assumption that buying cards constitues gambling is a statement not supported by legal precedent nor concrete fact, it is merely an opinion shared by some critics of this industry .

However I am going to review these suggestions to see how we can improve our program in future. Thanks for your input.
BG[/quote:3pgcifdr]

Please start an NPN program so everyone can come here and complain about the free cards that you give them.

 

[maxpower]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Someone worried about risk/making their money back should either not buy the product or see the kinds of breaks others are getting before deciding to make a purchase.

Checklists are for set collectors, but it seems this isn't a product set collectors could go after anyway.

I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree more. My interest in determining what value I should expect from a product doesn't change simply because I have enough disposable income to spend $200 on a pack or $3600 on six cases. I can afford to lose money on a product, but that doesn't mean I want to.

And checklists are used for many purposes. Are you asserting that buyers of Topps should only care to look at the checklist if they're interested in completing the set?

I'm not trying to force BG to do anything that he doesn't want to do. I'm simply sharing my perspective on one of his business decisions. He doesn't have to listen to me, and frankly, he really doesn't need my money on this product. But I don't think anything I've said has been unfair or out of bounds. I respect his decision to run his business the way he does, and for many collectors, he gives them a product that they want. However, for me (and collectors like me), this particular Leaf product isn't it. I loved the apparent transparency of Rookie Retro and accordingly, I hate the "surprise" of this product. After Upper Deck's Exquisite TBD program and now this, I'm tiring of this card company trend towards surprises.

 

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Someone worried about risk/making their money back should either not buy the product or see the kinds of breaks others are getting before deciding to make a purchase.

Checklists are for set collectors, but it seems this isn't a product set collectors could go after anyway.

I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree more. My interest in determining what value I should expect from a product doesn't change simply because I have enough disposable income to spend $200 on a pack or $3600 on six cases. I can afford to lose money on a product, but that doesn't mean I want to.

And checklists are used for many purposes. Are you asserting that buyers of Topps should only care to look at the checklist if they're interested in completing the set?

I'm not trying to force BG to do anything that he doesn't want to do. I'm simply sharing my perspective on one of his business decisions. He doesn't have to listen to me, and frankly, he really doesn't need my money on this product. But I don't think anything I've said has been unfair or out of bounds. I respect his decision to run his business the way he does, and for many collectors, he gives them a product that they want. However, for me (and collectors like me), this particular Leaf product isn't it. I loved the apparent transparency of Rookie Retro and accordingly, I hate the "surprise" of this product. After Upper Deck's Exquisite TBD program and now this, I'm tiring of this card company trend towards surprises.

Max,
I think you are being completely fair and reasonable. On this product, much like 2010 Legends of the Diamond, we chose NOT to checklist for various reasons (and quality was NOT one of them).
I can tell you we are already checklisting Rookie Retro for later this year, 100% certainty.
BG

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Someone worried about risk/making their money back should either not buy the product or see the kinds of breaks others are getting before deciding to make a purchase.

Checklists are for set collectors, but it seems this isn't a product set collectors could go after anyway.

I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree more. My interest in determining what value I should expect from a product doesn't change simply because I have enough disposable income to spend $200 on a pack or $3600 on six cases. I can afford to lose money on a product, but that doesn't mean I want to.

And checklists are used for many purposes. Are you asserting that buyers of Topps should only care to look at the checklist if they're interested in completing the set?

I'm not trying to force BG to do anything that he doesn't want to do. I'm simply sharing my perspective on one of his business decisions. He doesn't have to listen to me, and frankly, he really doesn't need my money on this product. But I don't think anything I've said has been unfair or out of bounds. I respect his decision to run his business the way he does, and for many collectors, he gives them a product that they want. However, for me (and collectors like me), this particular Leaf product isn't it. I loved the apparent transparency of Rookie Retro and accordingly, I hate the "surprise" of this product. After Upper Deck's Exquisite TBD program and now this, I'm tiring of this card company trend towards surprises.

You're disagreeing with me, but there's really nothing to disagree with - as I said there's always the option of not purchasing the product. I kind of understand your frustration, but there's no reason to be because there's an easy out from all of this.

I'm just mostly concerned with manufacturers doing what they say they're going to do and not misleading people but I don't see an issue here.

Its smart to know what's in a product before buying it and to expect transparency, but people also need to figure stuff out for themselves and accept the consequences of their own decisions. Maybe some day there will be a law requiring more information on packs, but I don't think that will be necessary unless the government determines pack ripping = gambling.

 

[Boylen33]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

While the element of surprise is what, essentially, keeps us all busting packs, perhaps latently, it is also what keeps, in my opinion, a majority of collectors away from certain products. I don't have as much disposable income as some, but I do have a little. I buy a product based on it's strength, and a checklist goes long way in making that determination. That's why checklists are important. And most collector's don't have a lot of disposable income; therefore, they won't buy a product they can't visibly foresee or conceive value in.

You stated, BG, that there are 2,500 card possibilities besides the 17 card cut signature checklist that has been released. In respect to the numerous possibilities, I see you providing such as evidence to not checklist the set as plausible. However, again, preaching transparency, it would be nice to know some of those "possibilities". You have stated a few in this thread, and I've heard rumors of some others that have circulated throughout the Ethernet, but out of 2,500 cards, I see quite a bit of potential for a lot of $10-$20 cards. Couple that with a $75 Greg Maddux or Tony Gwynn cut auto (and that's being very, very generous), and I've just lost more than I care to lose on a 2-pack box of cards.

You also stated that customers have asked for cut signatures of living players. I would be confident in debating you that the majority would not prefer a cut auto of a living individual. Greg Maddux will probably sign a million more autographs between now and the end of his life, should he not meet an untimely demise. I believe the majority would much rather have a cut signature of a half-way decent deceased HOF'er than a cut auto of someone I can go out and buy a certified autograph of for $15-$20. And I don't care if it's on-card or sticker...an autograph is an autograph is an autograph. That's just me, and I may be in the minority on these forums, but I believe the majority of collectors feel the same way.

No, this product is not for everyone, myself included. I would much rather buy 2-3 boxes of a mid-range product that has 8-12 hits with the possibility of pulling something even more special than to buy a 2-card per box product solely on the element of surprise. But again, that's just me and my opinion, which, of course, isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things.

I was not trying to offend you or anyone else here by making the statement that I believe this product will be a failure. If I am wrong, so be it-- it won't be the first time, and it certainly won't be the last. But it's simply a predication based on what I feel, and I will stand by my statement. It's not at all that I wish it to be a failure, or Leaf to be a failure. Believe me, I would MUCH rather see Leaf on top with the MLB license than Topps, who seems to bend over backwards to make themselves look unintelligent, berating, and inept.

 

[Lancemountain]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

I'm not hating as I think you've generally tried your best but you said yourself that you know every card in the release.

Why not post that on your website?

Honestly you and unique can talk semantics about what "is" a checklist....

but hiding what you included, and how much of each, you put into the product counteracts everything you say you do by coming here. You are really not doing anything by posting here other than just posting. There is nothing that Leaf/Razor has ever done by coming here in a customer standpoint other than saying "Hey, I'm here, that's more than Topps!"

Oh, the "if you are not buying it, you are not allowed to question it" or the more direct "speak with your wallet, not with your post on this board" retorts contradict the very reasons you, yourself, have said that you post here.

I know you get a lot of hate, and I hope you don't see this post as hating.


Do something different. Post what's in the product, every card, on your website. What possible drawback is there to you? (other than there is a big % of crap)

 

[TwinGnats]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on. Which is sad because I was actually looking forward to Metal which actually looked good.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

 

[Lancemountain]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

I dunno TwinGnats, I think BG is just saying (as a previous poster said he would do if he owned a company) you can't just run a card company like a fanboy, it is , after all, a business. Not every box or case will give you a 200% return. BG needs to make a living.

He just needs to offer up his checklist or do something to differentiate himself, other than the fact that he posts here. If he doesn't want to do something that customer friendly, he doesn't have to. No other company does so that would be fine.

My, and other's, problem is that he beats that drum where by posting here, he is doing something different. Nothing I have seen from leaf is anything other than the norm.

 

[boomo]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

I think the price drop is becuase the product blows. You have a very, very good chance of busting a box and not even making half your money back. Here's a good rule of thumb I wish companies would follow: If an individual is still alive, they SHOULD NOT have a cut signature. Half the cut sig checklist is players who are alive and well.

With all respect, how do you or anyone else know if it blows?

There is no checklist.
At this point, only I know what is in the product.

Once you open some (obviously not happening), feel free to come on and share an opinion based in fact rather than speculation.
BG

p.s.- cuts of living people and stickers of living people are the same thing. The only difference is the transparency of the medium.

it may be cool and not blow, but almost everyone ripping it will lose substantial money.
just the nature of wax. and it sucks. ass.

 

[George_Calfas]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

BG, Why is there no published checklist? If there were a checklist I would consider busting the product.

 

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on. Which is sad because I was actually looking forward to Metal which actually looked good.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

Maybe my point got lost. I am and have been a VERY serious collector for many years. I too was critical of manufacturers until I became one.
I was exactly the collector I referred to above... until I saw the light. Armchair quarterbacking is far easier than suiting up and taking the hits... Maybe we should run a contest for Leaf CEO for a day... That might be interesting....
BG

 

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

BG, Why is there no published checklist? If there were a checklist I would consider busting the product.

I understand all who want to see a checklist. The number of different cards is staggering. In addition, unlike a UD set where they put a set name and list 20 guys in the set, this checklist involves a complicated array of Rookies, Vintage, Signed Rookie Cards and stronger modern autos/relics (and rare parallels of such).

I personally have not catalogued EVERY card in the product, however I am confident that we have provided an experience similar to Rookie Retro.

BG

p.s- last years legends of the diamond was NOT checklisted and performed very well. I know we are checklisting Rookie Retro 2011 and based on the feedback you guys are providing we will most probably checklist all future products like this.

 

[Leaf]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on. Which is sad because I was actually looking forward to Metal which actually looked good.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

Have you seen our Muhammad Ali or Metal Football products?
Can you honestly say ALI was not a quality product?
BG

 

[matchpenalty]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

Leaf has been solid. With some great offerings. Ali, Football, Leaf cuts, Pop culture.

This board is full of genius card company execs in the making. That just think players are waiting to sign cards and return them early. Always answering phone calls. Wanting very little money to sign. Willing to just be on call when a set is made to hurry up and sign cards so the can be on card. If people knew all horror stories and what aholes a lot of these guys are to work with and how much they think their stuff is worth they would have an new perspective.

 

[TwinGnats]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

I just haven't personally liked any of the products though I was planning on opening a pack of metal though. This is the first I've spoken up but its the third time I've seen you post in an unprofessional manner. Maybe all the guys at topps are d-bags but they don't come here to air it out (and they get ripped on a lot).

I don't have any problem with any manufactuer and how they operate, as it will be decided in profit or loss. I just won't be a customer anymore (not that I was the biggest one, so it's not a huge loss).

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on. Which is sad because I was actually looking forward to Metal which actually looked good.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

Have you seen our Muhammad Ali or Metal Football products?
Can you honestly say ALI was not a quality product?
BG

 

[George_Calfas]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

BG, Why is there no published checklist? If there were a checklist I would consider busting the product.

I understand all who want to see a checklist. The number of different cards is staggering. In addition, unlike a UD set where they put a set name and list 20 guys in the set, this checklist involves a complicated array of Rookies, Vintage, Signed Rookie Cards and stronger modern autos/relics (and rare parallels of such).

I personally have not catalogued EVERY card in the product, however I am confident that we have provided an experience similar to Rookie Retro.

BG

p.s- last years legends of the diamond was NOT checklisted and performed very well. I know we are checklisting Rookie Retro 2011 and based on the feedback you guys are providing we will most probably checklist all future products like this.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[cubfan86]

Re: Leaf Best of Baseball Presell Prices Went Down

I just haven't personally liked any of the products though I was planning on opening a pack of metal though. This is the first I've spoken up but its the third time I've seen you post in an unprofessional manner. Maybe all the guys at topps are d-bags but they don't come here to air it out (and they get ripped on a lot).

I don't have any problem with any manufactuer and how they operate, as it will be decided in profit or loss. I just won't be a customer anymore (not that I was the biggest one, so it's not a huge loss).

Rule #1 of Marketing: attempt to ridicule customers in front of large group of potential customers.

I don't hate Leaf as a company, though I do feel they are not a major manufactuer since I've yet to see a quality product from them. I've purchased a few things but more to see what it was when bored at LCS. This has however been the third time I've seen a defensive, angry rant while battling people. This completely turns me off that such a lack of professionalism and I think out of principle I won't purchase any Leaf products for now on. Which is sad because I was actually looking forward to Metal which actually looked good.

p.s.- I love when collectors tell manufacturers they are cheap and lazy. Trust me, one week doing what we do to get deals done and make compelling products, you would be in awe (rather than judgment).

Have you seen our Muhammad Ali or Metal Football products?
Can you honestly say ALI was not a quality product?
BG

REALLY? REALLY!!!!!!? I have read this entire post and have to say some of you guys really need to wake up. Topps is the biggest fraud crap company ever. I do not want to hear one person talk about them releasing checklist (even if they do have TBA on them) because most of their checklists are a COMPLETE LIE!!! I busted 5 cases of UFC Series 4 last year based on the checklist and they pulled 18 of the Top fighters without any notice and then tried to LIE for 2 weeks about them still being in the product.
Not one person at Topps or UD knows what the other is doing or what is going on with their products. Brian at least keeps up with the products and DOES answer questions about them.
Yes I am defending BG because most of the people on here bashing him are not going to buy his product anyway. It is really easy to sit behind your computer and play Sports card company CEO but living it is a little different. Just be careful not to spill your code red mountain dew on your laptop or your Mom might ground you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RANT over