More mama_bear** discussion...

[Mr.Whipple]

There is a seller near mama bear, he has cases cheap also. Sellers name is Stevenbailey84. Also sells singles like mama bear and some of the scans look similar.

 

[Mr.Whipple]

I don't wanna anyone to think that I am defending this seller at all. Just stating business practices that are really common. Personally, I wouldn't buy a thing from them because of the unknown.

Why? Because I am giving answers that are possible to do business under? But you're an obvious expert in the hobby, Explain to me what's going on with mama bear? I would be happy with 15 bucks a case with selling 40 cases at a time for typing out a few auctions.

+1

I think it ultimately boils down to what Mamabear is buying at vs what they're being sold to them at, which was what my original response was trying to get at; until WE know what the cost was to mamabear, there isn't much of an argument.

Using past costs and numbers is great - but that was a year ago and I still don't see an invoice or anything solid stating otherwise.

I wholeheartedly agree that that one should err on the side of caution if you don't feel comfortable enough to buy from them, then don't, you certainly have that right. And if you do, as many posts have said here, buy with protection.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Is there a way too see transactions on dealernet? I am under the assumption that it's a dealer to dealer site or am I wrong? If it's dealer to dealer, I still think it's legit and like stated before a created entity to throw the companies hounds off.

Mamabear finds pre sell cases on dealernet, They contact the seller and first question is, Did you receive a deposit on these cases from customers? If the LCS did, They offer the difference on direct cost. So they already bought the case below cost. They might also make an offer to cover the cost of the LCS shipping it for them. They buy 40 cases in this manner, and can profit 45-65 a case after fees, They make easy money for very little effort. Even if the profit is 20 bucks a case, Still making money for a few emails.

... I give up.

Why? Because I am giving answers that are possible to do business under? But you're an obvious expert in the hobby, Explain to me what's going on with mama bear? I would be happy with 15 bucks a case with selling 40 cases at a time for typing out a few auctions.

... you're not getting it, are you? First off, how often does someone not pay the remainder of what's owed on a case? Not very often. And if it does happen, usually the dealer will sell the boxes off to customers or list them himself on eBay or put the case on dealernet. Why would the LCS sell it at cost and not make a profit off of a relatively hot product like Bowman Sterling?

FURTHERMORE, why make $15 a case when with no more effort they can make $200-300 a case and still be below market value? They're not competing with other case sellers, they're blowing them out of the water.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't wanna anyone to think that I am defending this seller at all. Just stating business practices that are really common. Personally, I wouldn't buy a thing from them because of the unknown.

But these business practices AREN'T common in the world of baseball cards, and there are two VERY VIABLE methods of eliminating product quickly - eBay and DealerNet. Sellers don't need to sell products that haven't even come out yet like Bow Sterling below cost to an individual seller when they can be sold for more on those two sites.

 

[nyc3]

Rob - it's not complicated.

Let's just say for sake of arguement that you want to undercut your competition, establish yourself, dominate the market, whatever.

If a product routinely sells for $1,800....why in the hell would you sell for $1,100....when you could sell for $1600 and still WAAAAAYYYYY undercut everyone else?

This is not about dumping a loser product that you ordered too much of and need to clear out old stock.
If that was the case, I'd agree with you. This is a BRAND NEW product that's not even out yet.

Dont use logic it wont work

 

[smapdi]

I think I've figured this out. The person behind it all is this guy:

 

[bmc398]

I don't wanna anyone to think that I am defending this seller at all. Just stating business practices that are really common. Personally, I wouldn't buy a thing from them because of the unknown.

But these business practices AREN'T common in the world of baseball cards, and there are two VERY VIABLE methods of eliminating product quickly - eBay and DealerNet. Sellers don't need to sell products that haven't even come out yet like Bow Sterling below cost to an individual seller when they can be sold for more on those two sites.

Ding ding ding. Waaaayyyy too much money being left on the table here for it to be legitmate. Mama_Bear could jack up presell prices 40% tomorrow and still would be taking a loss.

Jeff is right....right now its way to easy to sell a case of sterling at cost or at least at a loss thats not as substaintial as $550 per plus fees.

I agree 100% with you Marro...that some business practices out there would boggle the minds of people who aren't in the financial industry....but, the card market doesnt really function like the retail goods market does. How many sellers/retailers do you know of who sell everything they have for 40% below cost?

And you being a smart businessman, if you got cases @$800 of a $1600 product....would you sell @$1050....or substantially higher if you knew your closest legitimate competitor was @$1850+

Too many variables that have been proven thus far that you just aren't taking into account. Am I a hobby insider...no. But am I friends with several....yes, and ive had at length discussions with them and was as skeptical as you were until I sat down and talked about it with them.

 

[Mr.Whipple]

Since I am clueless on this, I won't post on this subject after this.

I wanna see proof they buy every case sold on bay from dealernet. How many different states have the cases come from? They sell singles also, Where are they being shipped from? How come most people live under the assumption that no one in this hobby has sold product short? Online retailers like blowout and Dave and Adams buy loads of product this way. Or did you people forget Bowman Chrome and Topps Chrome and the beatings people took this year.

Jeff, You're a lawyer so since when do you make assumptions based on myths? You clearly cannot say what's happening without clear answers from mama bear or dealernet.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Since I am clueless on this, I won't post on this subject after this.

I wanna see proof they buy every case sold on bay from dealernet. How many different states have the cases come from? They sell singles also, Where are they being shipped from? How come most people live under the assumption that no one in this hobby has sold product short? Online retailers like blowout and Dave and Adams buy loads of product this way. Or did you people forget Bowman Chrome and Topps Chrome and the beatings people took this year.

Jeff, You're a lawyer so since when do you make assumptions based on myths? You clearly cannot say what's happening without clear answers from mama bear or dealernet.

I'm not proving this to a jury or a judge. I'm taking the facts I have before me and trying to come to a conclusion.

1) People are getting their cases drop shipped from all over the country.
2) Mamabear states that she dropships.

Therefore, we have drop shipping. She's not getting them from the company, she's having other people send them out after she buys them from those people.

That being said, there is no logical argument that indicates that she's making any type of profit selling the product the way she's doing so, and is taking a huge loss. SOMETHING doesn't add up.

You can talk about blowout of product, but there's no liquid marketplace for 500 cases of overstocked ass cream...whereas one turn on dealernet or eBay and unload 500 cases of Bowman Sterling without a problem at, at this point, a tidy profit over direct cost.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Money-laundering.

Seems easy enough of an explanation. Plus they can easily offset other gains by losses posted within this structure.

 

[All In Cards]

Money-laundering.

Seems easy enough of an explanation. Plus they can easily offset other gains by losses posted within this structure.

no way around the new 1099 form, as they are doing over 200 transactions and easily over 20k

 

[bmc398]

Money-laundering.

Seems easy enough of an explanation. Plus they can easily offset other gains by losses posted within this structure.

no way around the new 1099 form, as they are doing over 200 transactions and easily over 20k

All that means is that they have to pay taxes on what they sell. The "dirty money" is the money they would be buying the cases with from the dealer. There wouldn't be any record of where it came from if they paid in cash or used a credit card. If you make the money trail long enough, the harder it will be to catch up to. Will they get caught....sure, at some point. But, the longer you prolong it, the longer you can live the high life on all this floating cash.

 

[Bill Menard]

She appears to have 4 kids, chases free tickets to concerts and certainly isn't living the high life. I don't think you've quite got it right.

I've dealt with her, problem free, and don't see the problem with taking advantage of the good deals that she can offer up (for WHATEVER reason).

Take the goods at prices far reduces from what we think SHOULD be "normal" market prices and have fun with your breaks!

Bottom line, she delivers what she sells. Isn't there a saying - "Why ask why" or "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" (or something like that)? Just take it and enjoy.

 

[ChasHawk]

maybe she's just racking up a bunch of CC accounts in preparation for bankruptcy. :lol: :lol:

 

[sunojorel]

I have read every post in this thread as well as the other threads in the past month or two regarding this seller, and haven't said much cuz it was gonna take me forever to compose my thoughts and put them into a reply.
But I feel I am doing everyone a disservice by not giving my insight. This may get a bit lengthy but I believe it's worth the read.

1.Mama_bear isn't a woman at all, his name is Mark. I have had several lengthy phone conversations with him dating back to November of 2010.

2. My first transaction with him was for 4 cases of 2010 Bowman Chrome that I prebought from him in October at $700 per when they were still selling for about $750-825 per

3. My first verbal conversation with him was about when I could expect delivery on the cases (I knew they were falling in price and wanted them ASAP to rip and flip to get out from under them at that price). I asked him for his zip code so I could run a rate from my business's UPS account to see what the different shipping rates would cost to get them in. He told me then that he did not have my cases in yet, but he could have them drop shipped from Arizona. (So I never did get his address.) Upon hearing this I asked him directly if it was a specific seller named "X" that he purchased these from. He informed me it was from seller "X" and apologized to me about the delay in the shipment and ate an additional $40 to help get them to me quicker. I then called seller "X" in Arizona to verify that he was drop shipping them for Mark. I had these conversations on the day Bowman Chrome hobby went live.

4. I know for a fact that Mark made money on the specific transaction mentioned above b/c I also prepurchased 1/2 dozen cases from seller "X"at near factory cost about 1 month before actual live date.

5. A more recent conversation before Christmas with Mark I had revealed to me that he never stocks the goods and they are always drop shipped. He also said that he adjusted his quoted lead time on auctions to account for his drop shipping.
I asked him flatly if he is selling these cases short. The reply I got was "YES that's exactly what I am doing".
He then gave me some examples of how he made out (thousands in the case of the chrome products) and some examples of where he lost a bit. Now it's quite obvious to all of us that a small fortune was to be made by shorting Chrome and Bowman chrome this year. But some of the other products aren't as obvious to me. He also did disclose to me as it seems he has to others that he is banking on the fact that all of these products are hitting right after another and hardly anything is sustaining it's price, therefore when dealers are getting jammed up and needing "cash flow" he is buying up what they need to move immediately and giving them their needed "cash flow".

6. I can also speak in regards to the direct cost compared to the retail price. The examples of high margins that many people are arbitrarily throwing out there in this thread are completely in line with most business structures (cost = roughly 40-60% on average, I own a small business specializing in home fashions products and can attest to this). But they are not even close for this industry.
Most distributors will presell to verified dealers at roughly 5-10% markup over cost. The main benefit to the dealer is that do not have to buy direct and lay out their own money enabling them to keep cash flow healthy until the product actually releases, only then do they have to pay the distributor. With the understanding if you want to keep your credit lines open and healthy with the distributor you need to pay for the items no matter how badly they've tanked or you will not be permitted to order subsequent products. Thus in some cases contributing to the to dealers who need to "dump goods" to create "cash flow" for their business.
This example of how it works purchasing from a distributor is very different from one of us purchasing from D&A or Blowout with our $100 or $200 per case deposit. These guys are large retailers that do operate on higher margins. There you can in theory walk away from the purchase and you are out the deposit $$ and they will resell the item they ordered for you to someone else.

7. Pay pal and Ebay.
During a conversation (beginning of December)with Mark I told him that there is chatter about him and people are very skeptical about his selling practices. He told me he was aware of it and that Ebay and Paypal shut him down and froze his account right before Thanksgiving for awhile and would not reinstate it unless he was able to show a trail of purchases for the goods he was selling on Ebay. (I don't remember if any of you remember his auctions in early December stating "My Black Friday sales start now." I am assuming this had something to do with him being shut down for a bit while they made him verify things.

As a side note upon my inquiries regarding a purchase I made and had no recourse to get my money back (from a completely unrelated seller PACANE69 was the seller AVOID him very shady). An Ebay representative informed me that it is against EBAY policy for someone to presell an item that can not be filled within 30 days of the auction ending date.
Just thought that was an interesting tidbit.

I am not condoning people buying from him specifically here, I agree that selling $600 or roughly 30% below cost for this product is selling way short (my personal opinion is that it isn't going to be a strong product at all anyway ,and will end up below cost aside). I just wanted to share this info with everyone, I'm not sure what to take from all of the info myself.
But even if someone is honestly shorting things they must be careful to not get caught with their pants down. (I'm pretty sure the SEC even banned it for a bit within the past couple years during the crazy instability of the stock market.)

 

[Mr.Whipple]

SO I was wrong with what he was doing. Hope everyone forgives me for it.

 

[Guest]

Hey. That's cheating!

We're all supposed to post here, wildly speculating on what my be happening, and coming up with uninformed opinions.

How dare you call the guy, have an indepth conversation, and actually find out what's happening!

You just broke the "internets"!

 

[tommyfro21]

Thanks for sharing this info with the board. I know I appreciate it when members share info such as this.

I have read every post in this thread as well as the other threads in the past month or two regarding this seller, and haven't said much cuz it was gonna take me forever to compose my thoughts and put them into a reply.
But I feel I am doing everyone a disservice by not giving my insight. This may get a bit lengthy but I believe it's worth the read.

1.Mama_bear isn't a woman at all, his name is Mark. I have had several lengthy phone conversations with him dating back to November of 2010.

2. My first transaction with him was for 4 cases of 2010 Bowman Chrome that I prebought from him in October at $700 per when they were still selling for about $750-825 per

3. My first verbal conversation with him was about when I could expect delivery on the cases (I knew they were falling in price and wanted them ASAP to rip and flip to get out from under them at that price). I asked him for his zip code so I could run a rate from my business's UPS account to see what the different shipping rates would cost to get them in. He told me then that he did not have my cases in yet, but he could have them drop shipped from Arizona. (So I never did get his address.) Upon hearing this I asked him directly if it was a specific seller named "X" that he purchased these from. He informed me it was from seller "X" and apologized to me about the delay in the shipment and ate an additional $40 to help get them to me quicker. I then called seller "X" in Arizona to verify that he was drop shipping them for Mark. I had these conversations on the day Bowman Chrome hobby went live.

4. I know for a fact that Mark made money on the specific transaction mentioned above b/c I also prepurchased 1/2 dozen cases from seller "X"at near factory cost about 1 month before actual live date.

5. A more recent conversation before Christmas with Mark I had revealed to me that he never stocks the goods and they are always drop shipped. He also said that he adjusted his quoted lead time on auctions to account for his drop shipping.
I asked him flatly if he is selling these cases short. The reply I got was "YES that's exactly what I am doing".
He then gave me some examples of how he made out (thousands in the case of the chrome products) and some examples of where he lost a bit. Now it's quite obvious to all of us that a small fortune was to be made by shorting Chrome and Bowman chrome this year. But some of the other products aren't as obvious to me. He also did disclose to me as it seems he has to others that he is banking on the fact that all of these products are hitting right after another and hardly anything is sustaining it's price, therefore when dealers are getting jammed up and needing "cash flow" he is buying up what they need to move immediately and giving them their needed "cash flow".

6. I can also speak in regards to the direct cost compared to the retail price. The examples of high margins that many people are arbitrarily throwing out there in this thread are completely in line with most business structures (cost = roughly 40-60% on average, I own a small business specializing in home fashions products and can attest to this). But they are not even close for this industry.
Most distributors will presell to verified dealers at roughly 5-10% markup over cost. The main benefit to the dealer is that do not have to buy direct and lay out their own money enabling them to keep cash flow healthy until the product actually releases, only then do they have to pay the distributor. With the understanding if you want to keep your credit lines open and healthy with the distributor you need to pay for the items no matter how badly they've tanked or you will not be permitted to order subsequent products. Thus in some cases contributing to the to dealers who need to "dump goods" to create "cash flow" for their business.
This example of how it works purchasing from a distributor is very different from one of us purchasing from D&A or Blowout with our $100 or $200 per case deposit. These guys are large retailers that do operate on higher margins. There you can in theory walk away from the purchase and you are out the deposit $$ and they will resell the item they ordered for you to someone else.

7. Pay pal and Ebay.
During a conversation (beginning of December)with Mark I told him that there is chatter about him and people are very skeptical about his selling practices. He told me he was aware of it and that Ebay and Paypal shut him down and froze his account right before Thanksgiving for awhile and would not reinstate it unless he was able to show a trail of purchases for the goods he was selling on Ebay. (I don't remember if any of you remember his auctions in early December stating "My Black Friday sales start now." I am assuming this had something to do with him being shut down for a bit while they made him verify things.

As a side note upon my inquiries regarding a purchase I made and had no recourse to get my money back (from a completely unrelated seller PACANE69 was the seller AVOID him very shady). An Ebay representative informed me that it is against EBAY policy for someone to presell an item that can not be filled within 30 days of the auction ending date.
Just thought that was an interesting tidbit.

I am not condoning people buying from him specifically here, I agree that selling $600 or roughly 30% below cost for this product is selling way short (my personal opinion is that it isn't going to be a strong product at all anyway ,and will end up below cost aside). I just wanted to share this info with everyone, I'm not sure what to take from all of the info myself.
But even if someone is honestly shorting things they must be careful to not get caught with their pants down. (I'm pretty sure the SEC even banned it for a bit within the past couple years during the crazy instability of the stock market.)

 

[nyc3]

Since I am clueless on this, I won't post on this subject after this.

SO I was wrong with what he was doing. Hope everyone forgives me for it.

A man of his word.

 

[pigskincardboard]

Everyone's right.

I don't understand how short-selling is any different than a ponzi-scheme in this particular case. If you're actually shorting something, you generally have to have a boat-load of collateral so if and when a call comes, you can fulfill it. In this particular case, there's no way to verify liquidity and it's very reasonable to suspect he's using future sales as a means of fulfilling losses.

To the people that believed this was a straight up ponzi-scheme, this doesn't change a damn thing. If you were avoiding this seller before, you should continue avoiding him.

Worst case scenario for Ponzi-scheme: You pay money, do not receive case, file claim.
Worst case scenario for shorting cases: You pay money, cases rise, he can not honor any transactions and must refund all the money while still paying fees because no one's going to willingly cancel these transactions. I highly doubt he'll have the liquidity to cover his losses and raising new funds with open cases and bad feedback will be troublesome.

If he's shorting these things by almost 10%-20% he'd be required to have like 50%!!! collateral.