Name 3 players that most don't think will make HOF...

[autocut]

I can't see the argument for Vizquel...

Whether or not he or any other player is "deserving" is not my argument. Players and coaches are much more likely to want to put people into the Hall of Fame because of their proximity.

What I said is that the argument is weak because he was never one of the best players at his position. Even as a huge Vizquel fan, can you tell me what year he was one of the overall top three shortstops in the game? For most of his career he wasn't even top 6 or 7. I can think of a long list of shortstops who were his contemporaries who were superior players. Jeter, Nomar, Tejada, A-Rod, Ripken, Reyes, Hanley, Rollins, Michael Young, Tulo and the list goes on. Vizquel is a significantly below average offensive player over his career, putting up an 82 OPS+. His career WAR - which includes his defense - is just 42.3, despite playing 23 seasons so far. He's a good, even very good player, but not an all time great.

I was just pointing out that more than a few in the game, including some HOF'ers, strongly disagree with you. I'm happy that people are even debating it and personally think he's a 50% shot at best.

On a different note, do people really question whether Thome gets in? And not on the first few ballots? I just assumed it was a given but what do I know...

I can't see how they can let Ozzie in and not Vizquel. I guess Vizquel needs to learn how to do backward flips.

 

[miguelcabrera]

i agree with a couple guys on here...

Andruw Jones -- had a great decade of dominance

Andy Petitte -- broke Smoltz' post season wins record, money in regular and post season, plus he's a good ole' boy

Curt Schilling -- when it counted, you gave Schilling the ball and all you needed was one run


Someone who will get in based on stats but shouldn't is Randy Johnson, if he were a standard 6'2" pitcher there is no way he would have been the pitcher he was. Hell, by the time he released the ball he was only 50 feet from the plate.

Randy Johnson was argubaly the best pitcher during the 90's and mid 00s dont see how anyone who follows baseball believe he isnt a HOFer

part of me is biased in my disdain for him, he was a good pitcher but if he was the "average sized" pitcher he wouldn't have been nearly as dominant

i have been saying this to people for years but nobody ever really listened to me. people just want to throw him in the hall for his stats, but if you look at his size then he would not have those stats. i really hope he does not get in

Just laughable. :lol:

Randy Johnson was one of the most dominant forces in the history of the game. You two need to stop. It's such a laughable argument that no one is even "arguing" with you, but laughing at you.

yes, but he was because of his size. take away his size and he is below average at best and why he should never make it into the HOF

 

[sportscardtheory]

i have been saying this to people for years but nobody ever really listened to me. people just want to throw him in the hall for his stats, but if you look at his size then he would not have those stats. i really hope he does not get in

Just laughable. :lol:

Randy Johnson was one of the most dominant forces in the history of the game. You two need to stop. It's such a laughable argument that no one is even "arguing" with you, but laughing at you.

yes, but he was because of his size. take away his size and he is below average at best and why he should never make it into the HOF

Have a few more of these. :benson: :benson: :benson: :benson: :benson:

 

[beefycheddar]

i agree with a couple guys on here...

Andruw Jones -- had a great decade of dominance

Andy Petitte -- broke Smoltz' post season wins record, money in regular and post season, plus he's a good ole' boy

Curt Schilling -- when it counted, you gave Schilling the ball and all you needed was one run


Someone who will get in based on stats but shouldn't is Randy Johnson, if he were a standard 6'2" pitcher there is no way he would have been the pitcher he was. Hell, by the time he released the ball he was only 50 feet from the plate.

Randy Johnson was argubaly the best pitcher during the 90's and mid 00s dont see how anyone who follows baseball believe he isnt a HOFer

part of me is biased in my disdain for him, he was a good pitcher but if he was the "average sized" pitcher he wouldn't have been nearly as dominant

i have been saying this to people for years but nobody ever really listened to me. people just want to throw him in the hall for his stats, but if you look at his size then he would not have those stats. i really hope he does not get in

Yeah I agree, I mean if Wilt Chamberlain was 5'9"....... Wait, that is the dumbest argument for someone not to be in the Hall of Fame ever. Pretty much every single player in any sport you can say "If he wasn't (Insert physical blessing that player was given) then he wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame."

If Babe Ruth wasn't so good, he wouldn't hit all those home runs.

If Michael Jordan wasn't as athletic then he wouldn't be as good as he is.

If Nolan Ryan didn't throw so hard, he wouldn't have the stats.

 

[Hallsgator]

Jack Wilson
Livan Hernandez
Arthur Rhodes

 

[beefycheddar]

Mike Greenwell
Ellis Burks
Todd Benzinger

 

[BrewerSuperCollector]

Omar Vizquel unless he gets 3000
Johnny Damon unless he gets 3000 then it still will a while.
Andruw Jones
Andy Pettitte
Paul Konerko
David Ortiz
Carlos Lee
Carlos Beltran
Matt Holliday
Michael Young...see Damon
Abreau... see Damon


I also don't see Schilling or Mussina getting in.

 

[Will Style 13]

Johnny Damon
Brian Roberts (if it wasn't for the injuries)
Andruw Jones
Jamie Moyer
Tim Wakefield

 

[Topnotchsy]

Jimmy Rollins - 2007 MVP, World Series Champion, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 All Star selections. He's a longshot but he's arguably the best NL shortstop over the last decade.

Third best shortstop in his own division over the last decade behind Reyes and Hanley. Hi MVP selection was one of the most undeserving in recent memory and he's had numerous seasons where he was barely replacement level. IMO one of the most overrated players in the last decade.

Pettitte admitted to using PED's so any nice guy image will more than be canceled out.

Juan Pierre puts up one of the emptiest stat lines in baseball.

 

[WoundedDuck]

What's the height limit that negates a pitchers accomplishments and excludes him from the hall of fame?

 

[Wes]

Jimmy Rollins - 2007 MVP, World Series Champion, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 All Star selections. He's a longshot but he's arguably the best NL shortstop over the last decade.

Third best shortstop in his own division over the last decade behind Reyes and Hanley. Hi MVP selection was one of the most undeserving in recent memory and he's had numerous seasons where he was barely replacement level. IMO one of the most overrated players in the last decade.

Pettitte admitted to using PED's so any nice guy image will more than be canceled out.

Juan Pierre puts up one of the emptiest stat lines in baseball.

That's some pretty harsh criticism of ROllins. Who did you want to get the MVP in '07? Holliday? Wright? It wasn't an obvious choice but to say he was undeserving is a little strong considering he hit 30 HR and stole 41 bags while playing a premium defensive position well.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Jimmy Rollins - 2007 MVP, World Series Champion, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 All Star selections. He's a longshot but he's arguably the best NL shortstop over the last decade.

Third best shortstop in his own division over the last decade behind Reyes and Hanley. Hi MVP selection was one of the most undeserving in recent memory and he's had numerous seasons where he was barely replacement level. IMO one of the most overrated players in the last decade.

Pettitte admitted to using PED's so any nice guy image will more than be canceled out.

Juan Pierre puts up one of the emptiest stat lines in baseball.

That's some pretty harsh criticism of ROllins. Who did you want to get the MVP in '07? Holliday? Wright? It wasn't an obvious choice but to say he was undeserving is a little strong considering he hit 30 HR and stole 41 bags while playing a premium defensive position well.

Don't forget his 20 triples that season. Dude had 88 extra base hits that season to go along with 41 stolen bases... from a SS. He deserved that MVP award and is one of the best overall SS's in the game.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Jimmy Rollins - 2007 MVP, World Series Champion, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 All Star selections. He's a longshot but he's arguably the best NL shortstop over the last decade.

Third best shortstop in his own division over the last decade behind Reyes and Hanley. Hi MVP selection was one of the most undeserving in recent memory and he's had numerous seasons where he was barely replacement level. IMO one of the most overrated players in the last decade.

Pettitte admitted to using PED's so any nice guy image will more than be canceled out.

Juan Pierre puts up one of the emptiest stat lines in baseball.

That's some pretty harsh criticism of ROllins. Who did you want to get the MVP in '07? Holliday? Wright? It wasn't an obvious choice but to say he was undeserving is a little strong considering he hit 30 HR and stole 41 bags while playing a premium defensive position well.

Don't forget his 20 triples that season. Dude had 88 extra base hits that season to go along with 41 stolen bases... from a SS. He deserved that MVP award and is one of the best overall SS's in the game.

At the time he won it, it was a total surprise because Holliday, Wright, Pujols amongst others had a higher WARP than he did. Some thought Fielder would win because he had 50 homers. Jake Peavy won the pitching triple crown that year and IMO also would have been a better selection. Rollins certainly had a very impressive season, but I really think it was a long shot for MVP.

Even if you say he deserved the MVP, his best finishes in the MVP voting have been:

2007: 1st
2005: 10th
2001: 17th
2006: 21st
2004: 30th

He's a player who has a career OPS of .761 and an OPS+ of 97 (below league average.) In his entire career he has had an OPS+ above 103 one time. Basically he was an above average hitter one season in his entire career (and that was with an OPS+ of 119, nice but not really all that impressive.)

Regarding the comment that he's on of the best shortstops in the game, have you seen his slash lines the last 4 seasons?

2008: .277/11/59
2009: .250/21/77
2010: .243/8/41 (missed time due to injury.)
2011: .268/16/63

 

[ChasHawk]

What's the height limit that negates a pitchers accomplishments and excludes him from the hall of fame?

5'2"

 

[ChasHawk]

Just in your opinion, name three CURRENT players you think will make the HOF but there is a great debate whether they will or not. So guys like Jeter, Chipper, Mariano, Halladay, Pujols, Ichiro, are out.

Disclaimer: They must have 10 years of MLB service and TRY to keep out players that have steroid implications (i.e. Manny Ramirez)

Thought I'd qoute this since we're a few pages in...

 

[sportscardtheory]

Jimmy Rollins - 2007 MVP, World Series Champion, 3 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 All Star selections. He's a longshot but he's arguably the best NL shortstop over the last decade.

Third best shortstop in his own division over the last decade behind Reyes and Hanley. Hi MVP selection was one of the most undeserving in recent memory and he's had numerous seasons where he was barely replacement level. IMO one of the most overrated players in the last decade.

Pettitte admitted to using PED's so any nice guy image will more than be canceled out.

Juan Pierre puts up one of the emptiest stat lines in baseball.

That's some pretty harsh criticism of ROllins. Who did you want to get the MVP in '07? Holliday? Wright? It wasn't an obvious choice but to say he was undeserving is a little strong considering he hit 30 HR and stole 41 bags while playing a premium defensive position well.

Don't forget his 20 triples that season. Dude had 88 extra base hits that season to go along with 41 stolen bases... from a SS. He deserved that MVP award and is one of the best overall SS's in the game.

At the time he won it, it was a total surprise because Holliday, Wright, Pujols amongst others had a higher WARP than he did. Some thought Fielder would win because he had 50 homers. Jake Peavy won the pitching triple crown that year and IMO also would have been a better selection. Rollins certainly had a very impressive season, but I really think it was a long shot for MVP.

Even if you say he deserved the MVP, his best finishes in the MVP voting have been:

2007: 1st
2005: 10th
2001: 17th
2006: 21st
2004: 30th

He's a player who has a career OPS of .761 and an OPS+ of 97 (below league average.) In his entire career he has had an OPS+ above 103 one time. Basically he was an above average hitter one season in his entire career (and that was with an OPS+ of 119, nice but not really all that impressive.)

Regarding the comment that he's on of the best shortstops in the game, have you seen his slash lines the last 4 seasons?

2008: .277/11/59
2009: .250/21/77
2010: .243/8/41 (missed time due to injury.)
2011: .268/16/63

He's a SS. You seem to forgetting that. For a SS, he's damn good with good stats. Of course he's not the BEST SS, no one is saying that. But you match his stats up against most starting SS's in the league and he's up there with the best.

 

[Topnotchsy]

He's a SS. You seem to forgetting that. For a SS, he's damn good with good stats. Of course he's not the BEST SS, no one is saying that. But you match his stats up against most starting SS's in the league and he's up there with the best.

Not forgetting.

There are at least four shortstops I would take over Rollins right now:

Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Starlin Castro
Asdrubal Cabrera

Looking at the best shortstops over the last decade I'd take:

Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Hanley Ramirez
Derek Jeter
Michael Young
Miguel Tejada

and might even consider guys like Carlos Guillen, Rafeal Furcal and Edgar Renteria who when you compare the stats are not that far off.

Don't get me wrong, Rollins is a very good player who had one excellent season, but he's miles from a HOF'er IMO.

 

[markakis8]

He's a SS. You seem to forgetting that. For a SS, he's damn good with good stats. Of course he's not the BEST SS, no one is saying that. But you match his stats up against most starting SS's in the league and he's up there with the best.

Not forgetting.

There are at least four shortstops I would take over Rollins right now:

Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Starlin Castro
Asdrubal Cabrera

Looking at the best shortstops over the last decade I'd take:

Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Hanley Ramirez
Derek Jeter
Michael Young
Miguel Tejada

and might even consider guys like Carlos Guillen, Rafeal Furcal and Edgar Renteria who when you compare the stats are not that far off.

Don't get me wrong, Rollins is a very good player who had one excellent season, but he's miles from a HOF'er IMO.

You are really reaching to make your point and slowly losing credibility. Certainly there is a debate whether, with a few more solid seasons, Rollins should be a HOF or not. Considering guys like Guillen, Furcal, and Renteria in their primes over Rollins? You just aren't looking at the facts close enough. When were those three even in an MVP discussion EVER?

I think when Rollins has retired, his career numbers and path will be similar's to Barry Larkin. Barry Larkin was the better hitter while I feel Rollins is/was the better runner on the base paths and a slightly better defender. Both were at the very least above average, and at best elite, in all the vital areas of the game at a very important position. Both won an MVP, both won a championship, and most likely, both will have played for one team when all is said and done.

Rollins is not a HOF yet, but he very well could be.

 

[jbhofmann]

Easy on the losing credibility when you think Rollins is in the same league as Larkin.

WAR 5.0+ Years

Rollins- 1 (6.1)
Larkin- 7 (6.2, 5.8, 5.7, 5.9, 7.4, 5.9, 5.2)

Next.

 

[Topnotchsy]

You are really reaching to make your point and slowly losing credibility. Certainly there is a debate whether, with a few more solid seasons, Rollins should be a HOF or not. Considering guys like Guillen, Furcal, and Renteria in their primes over Rollins? You just aren't looking at the facts close enough. When were those three even in an MVP discussion EVER?

I offered numbers to back my position, feel free to use some to back yours.

I will clarify that I was comparing their careers, not primes.

To further the position though:

All-Star game appearances:

Renteria: 5
Rollins: 3 (and only once since his first two full seasons in the league and including one year he was an all-star despite hitting .245/11/60 on the year. Interestingly, in every season he made the all-star game he was a below average hitter.)
Furcal: 2
Guillen: 3

Highest OPS+ (best peak season)

Renteria: 130
Rollins: 119
Furcal: 125 (was injured for 60 games though)
Guillen: 142

Career Batting Average

Renteria: .286
Rollins: .272
Furcal: .282
Guillen: .285

Career Homeruns

Renteria: 140
Rollins: 170
Furcal: 108
Guillen: 124

Looking across a number of stats I think that these 3 are great comparables for Rollins. (You would never consider comparing him to Reyes, Hanley, Tulowitzki, Jeter or star shortstops would you? I mean, the numbers are very clear that outside of a single season Rollins has been a mediocre hitter and sports a lifetime on base percentage of .329.)

I'm open to hearing another position, but for the most part I see a very average hitter who had one year where he put up very solid numbers, but a player who because of his number of at bats per season (which stems from hitting atop a great line-up and not walking much) allows him to accumulate a lot of hits and runs without being all that valuable with the bat.

And as for Rollins having "a few more solid seasons..." I'll reference back to his slash lines the last 4 years:

2008: .277/11/59
2009: .250/21/77
2010: .243/8/41 (missed time due to injury.)
2011: .268/16/63

Those are some really ugly looking numbers. If it was a year I'd say it was a down season. 2 years and maybe you could still explain it away. 4 years and I have a hard time seeing him as anything else. I would not be shocked if he puts up a nice season sometime in the next few years, but IMO he has about as close to zero chance as anyone of ever being considered for the Hall.