Pettitte to Retire

[Jesusmontero]

I feel like Pettite's decision is going to decide Montero's fate and Unfortunately it looks like Pettite is gone so I wouldn't be surprised if Montero is gone in a few months.

The Yankees will not trade Montero for an old washed up starting pitcher. Sure they offered him for Lee...ok I would have too. I am sure they will offer him up for King Felix, but that probably only get's the M's to answer the phone. It will take a lot more talent for Felix. The Yankees probably won't accept any offer they make. They traded Lee because he was gone either way.

Name some starting pitchers that are available that the Yankees would offer Montero for? Not many.

I know there not going to trade him for a washed up pitcher but I'd imagine that they will be seriously looking for a sp now. It obvious that the Yankees want to win now so from their stand point it makes sense to trade montero because his D isn't very good and Tex is blocking any chance of him playing 1st. I just don't feel like the yankees would keep him to play DH instead of trying to get a top line SP.

 

[elmalo]

I feel like Pettite's decision is going to decide Montero's fate and Unfortunately it looks like Pettite is gone so I wouldn't be surprised if Montero is gone in a few months.

The Yankees will not trade Montero for an old washed up starting pitcher. Sure they offered him for Lee...ok I would have too. I am sure they will offer him up for King Felix, but that probably only get's the M's to answer the phone. It will take a lot more talent for Felix. The Yankees probably won't accept any offer they make. They traded Lee because he was gone either way.

Name some starting pitchers that are available that the Yankees would offer Montero for? Not many.

I know there not going to trade him for a washed up pitcher but I'd imagine that they will be seriously looking for a sp now. It obvious that the Yankees want to win now so from their stand point it makes sense to trade montero because his D isn't very good and Tex is blocking any chance of him playing 1st. I just don't feel like the yankees would keep him to play DH instead of trying to get a top line SP.

That and that fact that ARod is their future DH.

 

[zach]

[quote="elmalo":m0rwwnpb][quote="zach":m0rwwnpb]Personally, I'm glad. He had a great career, but he's not the same Andy he was from years ago. He served the team well but it was definitely time to move on.

Not the same? He was having one of his best seasons ever last year until he got hurt and he was good in the playoffs last year.

OK...if you say so. I don't agree.

He was. Sorry

So would you guys consider '07, 08 and 09 great seasons or simply ok?

This is like saying Jeter's career is done because he had one bad season.

Andy is still great because he COULD HAVE had a great season if he didn't get injured?

I totally agree with you about Jeter. He had one bad year, and it wasnt even a bad year. He had a bad year for him. I happen to think he will bounce back.
I was just pointing out that Pettite was having a great season last year until he got hurt and he came back and pitched very well in the post season. He had a hell of a post season in 09, and he was good from 07-09, not great, but certainly better than anything that they have right now to replace him.[/quote:m0rwwnpb]

Bad year? He had one of the Worst Seasons EVER by a player making $20 million that year. Maybe the WORST ever. It is not like you are talking about a 28 year old shortstop making $1.5 million here. Jeter is getting old folks, he is NOT going to be getting better anytime soon. He is getting slower, losing range, and obvisouly his hitting skills are deteriorating.

skrip[/quote:m0rwwnpb]

I don't see the point in connecting the money he's making to the fact that he had a bad season. All players have bad seasons now and again....no matter the level of their pay. The pay has no bearing on his abilities or shortcomings.

 

[burke23]

Was he a great clutch pitcher absolutely but I dont believe he gets the call from Cooperstown.

I sure hope not...he and Jack Morris can hang out in the 'Hall of Very Good' together. That career WAR, ERA, ERA+, WHIP say career 'above average' pitcher to me. And for those touting his playoff studliness...his numbers in the playoffs are similar to the regular season...so no, that doesn't change anything.

 

[jbone17]

Was he a great clutch pitcher absolutely but I dont believe he gets the call from Cooperstown.

I sure hope not...he and Jack Morris can hang out in the 'Hall of Very Good' together. That career WAR, ERA, ERA+, WHIP say career 'above average' pitcher to me. And for those touting his playoff studliness...his numbers in the playoffs are similar to the regular season...so no, that doesn't change anything.

The argument is safe. Pettitte will never be a HOF. Will he have his # retired by the Yankees, and was he one of the best Yanks to ever wear the pinstripes? Yes, and Yes. Cooperstown? Never. Mussina has a better shot than Andy will ever have.

 

[Phishmon23]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

Was he a great clutch pitcher absolutely but I dont believe he gets the call from Cooperstown.

I sure hope not...he and Jack Morris can hang out in the 'Hall of Very Good' together. That career WAR, ERA, ERA+, WHIP say career 'above average' pitcher to me. And for those touting his playoff studliness...his numbers in the playoffs are similar to the regular season...so no, that doesn't change anything.

The argument is safe. Pettitte will never be a HOF. Will he have his # retired by the Yankees, and was he one of the best Yanks to ever wear the pinstripes? Yes, and Yes. Cooperstown? Never. Mussina has a better shot than Andy will ever have.

 

[Phishmon23]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

Was he a great clutch pitcher absolutely but I dont believe he gets the call from Cooperstown.

I sure hope not...he and Jack Morris can hang out in the 'Hall of Very Good' together. That career WAR, ERA, ERA+, WHIP say career 'above average' pitcher to me. And for those touting his playoff studliness...his numbers in the playoffs are similar to the regular season...so no, that doesn't change anything.

The argument is safe. Pettitte will never be a HOF. Will he have his # retired by the Yankees, and was he one of the best Yanks to ever wear the pinstripes? Yes, and Yes. Cooperstown? Never. Mussina has a better shot than Andy will ever have.

 

[RL24]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

It does count for something... just not towards getting into the Hall.


Look at Frank Crosetti. He was on 6 Yankee World Series winning teams as a player and 10 as a coach. He was really good at being in the right place at the right time (which is kind of a little joke because he led the category HBP just about every year). Just because you play for the Yankees and they win a lot of WS rings doesn't make you a HOFer...

 

[elmalo]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

It does count for something... just not towards getting into the Hall.


Look at Frank Crosetti. He was on 6 Yankee World Series winning teams as a player and 10 as a coach. He was really good at being in the right place at the right time (which is kind of a little joke because he led the category HBP just about every year). Just because you play for the Yankees and they win a lot of WS rings doesn't make you a HOFer...

But you are forgetting that Pettite was a key contributer to those world series teams. And this is from Crosettis wiki page: Crosetti was known for his ability to pull off the hidden ball trick and for being the weak link in the Yankees batting order. Several unflattering anecdotes about him appear in Jim Bouton's iconoclastic baseball book, "Ball Four."

 

[RL24]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

It does count for something... just not towards getting into the Hall.


Look at Frank Crosetti. He was on 6 Yankee World Series winning teams as a player and 10 as a coach. He was really good at being in the right place at the right time (which is kind of a little joke because he led the category HBP just about every year). Just because you play for the Yankees and they win a lot of WS rings doesn't make you a HOFer...

But you are forgetting that Pettite was a key contributer to those world series teams. And this is from Crosettis wiki page: Crosetti was known for his ability to pull off the hidden ball trick and for being the weak link in the Yankees batting order. Several unflattering anecdotes about him appear in Jim Bouton's iconoclastic baseball book, "Ball Four."

I agree Pettite really helped the Yankees win 4 Wolrd Series Titles.


My question is... does that alone make one a Hall of Famer? What else about Pettite screams "HOFer"?

 

[burke23]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

Yes - that 5-4 record with a 4.06 ERA in 77 IP was certainly the impetus for those 4 rings. Sometimes you need to seperate fact from fiction. Give me Mussina's career (if I am a GM picking between the two) over Pettitte's any day of the week. Moose wasn't lucky like Pettitte was to play on the better Yankees teams...it is not his fault.

 

[elmalo]

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

It does count for something... just not towards getting into the Hall.


Look at Frank Crosetti. He was on 6 Yankee World Series winning teams as a player and 10 as a coach. He was really good at being in the right place at the right time (which is kind of a little joke because he led the category HBP just about every year). Just because you play for the Yankees and they win a lot of WS rings doesn't make you a HOFer...

But you are forgetting that Pettite was a key contributer to those world series teams. And this is from Crosettis wiki page: Crosetti was known for his ability to pull off the hidden ball trick and for being the weak link in the Yankees batting order. Several unflattering anecdotes about him appear in Jim Bouton's iconoclastic baseball book, "Ball Four."

I agree Pettite really helped the Yankees win 4 Wolrd Series Titles.


My question is... does that alone make one a Hall of Famer? What else about Pettite screams "HOFer"?

I didnt say he belonged in the Hall of Fame, I was just saying that you cant really compare him to Crosetti.

 

[Phishmon23]

Don't get me wrong. I like Moose as much as the next guy; as a matter of fact, I would vote him into the Hall no questions asked.

I don't think we need to separate fact from fiction here...we are all talking facts. Pettitte just happens to be the winningest postseason pitcher of all time...luck or no luck, to me that counts for a lot!

Personally I give the HOF nod to both Pettitte and Mussina, but maybe I'm a bit biased. Although, I think Mussina is more deserving than Pettitte all things considered.

-J

Except Andy has 4 WS rings and Moose has 0. Has to count for something!

JMO.

Yes - that 5-4 record with a 4.06 ERA in 77 IP was certainly the impetus for those 4 rings. Sometimes you need to seperate fact from fiction. Give me Mussina's career (if I am a GM picking between the two) over Pettitte's any day of the week. Moose wasn't lucky like Pettitte was to play on the better Yankees teams...it is not his fault.

 

[burke23]

Don't get me wrong. I like Moose as much as the next guy; as a matter of fact, I would vote him into the Hall no questions asked.

I don't think we need to separate fact from fiction here...we are all talking facts. Pettitte just happens to be the winningest postseason pitcher of all time...luck or no luck, to me that counts for a lot!

Personally I give the HOF nod to both Pettitte and Mussina, but maybe I'm a bit biased. Although, I think Mussina is more deserving than Pettitte all things considered.

-J

Hard not to be the winningest post season pitcher...he has 45 more innings (and 7 more starts) than the next guy (263 vs 218 for Glavine). So he had the most opportunities to win. Why should that count for something? It would be one thing if he actually pitched better in the post season, but he didn't.

 

[Phishmon23]

Certainly Glavine is a sure fire HOFer. But to me, the Glavine vs. Pettitte post season argument doesn't measure up. Glavine actually has more post season defeats than victories...

You make it seem like Pettitte didn't pitch better in the post season than the regular season, but his ERA in the post season is actually a touch lower than the regular season.

IMO you're putting up arguments saying pitcher X is better than Pettitte which is why he doesn't deserve to get in. So far we have talked about Pettitte, Mussina and Glavine. To me that is a list of 3 HOFers!

Thanks for the lively debate!

-J

Don't get me wrong. I like Moose as much as the next guy; as a matter of fact, I would vote him into the Hall no questions asked.

I don't think we need to separate fact from fiction here...we are all talking facts. Pettitte just happens to be the winningest postseason pitcher of all time...luck or no luck, to me that counts for a lot!

Personally I give the HOF nod to both Pettitte and Mussina, but maybe I'm a bit biased. Although, I think Mussina is more deserving than Pettitte all things considered.

-J

Hard not to be the winningest post season pitcher...he has 45 more innings (and 7 more starts) than the next guy (263 vs 218 for Glavine). So he had the most opportunities to win. Why should that count for something? It would be one thing if he actually pitched better in the post season, but he didn't.

 

[burke23]

Certainly Glavine is a sure fire HOFer. But to me, the Glavine vs. Pettitte post season argument doesn't measure up. Glavine actually has more post season defeats than victories...

You make it seem like Pettitte didn't pitch better in the post season than the regular season, but his ERA in the post season is actually a touch lower than the regular season.

IMO you're putting up arguments saying pitcher X is better than Pettitte which is why he doesn't deserve to get in. So far we have talked about Pettitte, Mussina and Glavine. To me that is a list of 3 HOFers!

Thanks for the lively debate!

Actually I was stating that using PS wins doesn't reflect on Pettitte's abilities or success as pitcher because he has 20% more innings pitched than the next guy, which is Glavine. He is bound to have more wins given all those extra games started. That being said...pettitte's era difference between PS and regular season is negligible, even if slower (were talking hundredths of a point...one or two earned runs over 263 innings).

 

[vwnut13]

Pettitte is 102 wins over .500 as well.