Red Sox vs Tampa Bay Thread

[MallCopKJ]

are all the red sux fans cowering in a corner somewhere?

Im a Sox fan and im right here. What would you like us to do? I didnt sign Mike Cameron. I wouldnt sign Mike Cameron to my 18+ baseball team. Bill Hall? Scott Atchison? Adrian Beltre? and let Jason Bay walk..... Its not the fans fault management decided to play games with the team. It certainly isnt like you heard anyone whos a Sox fan, saying the Sox were going to win 95 games with THIS team. People in Boston complained all offseason it was going to be like this, now that its playing out like everyone figured it would, you expect someone to defend this crap?

 

[DaveH]

i was just noting how the thread had died by saturday night... but this was before I had seen the other thread about it. [which was active]

 

[andyduke86]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

 

[Jays_Cards]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

Count me in the happy Bay is gone camp. Watching Bill Hall man CF is another story, however. Not having Ellsbury and Cameron healthy with Youk, Vmart, Papi, and Drew all barely hitting their weight leads to a blowout series. I dont think this will continue for long, however.

 

[MallCopKJ]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

 

[DaveH]

Hermida is better than Cameron

 

[andyduke86]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

Cameron is a better center fielder than Ellsbury, unquestionably. Ellsbury makes up for poor reads and routes in center with speed and making an occasional diving catch. The team is better with him in left. UZR speaks volumes on this from the last few years.

 

[MallCopKJ]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

Cameron is a better center fielder than Ellsbury, unquestionably. Ellsbury makes up for poor reads and routes in center with speed and making an occasional diving catch. The team is better with him in left. UZR speaks volumes on this from the last few years.

Putting him in left already hurt Ellsbury (litterally). Cameron has taken some of the worst routes I have ever seen to baseballs so far this season, but hes actually got burned on them. If they both take bad routes anyways, Ill take Ellsbury with better speed. Im so sick of hearing about UZR ratings. You know who had the best defensive numbers last year? The Pittsburgh Pirates. Whos better, the Phillies banging out homeruns with Howard, Werth and Utley or the Pirates?
Furthermore, the Red Sox were supposedly going to be a "run prevention" team and already have 9 errors, 3rd most in the AL, and I believe 2 if not 3 of those are on Mike Cameron. The Sox let the best defensive shortstop they have ever had go for a guy who was a career utility infielder with 1 good season to his credit and look where thats got them. Alex Gonzalez is on fire in Toronto compared to Marco "I cant reach first base" Scutaro.

 

[andyduke86]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

Cameron is a better center fielder than Ellsbury, unquestionably. Ellsbury makes up for poor reads and routes in center with speed and making an occasional diving catch. The team is better with him in left. UZR speaks volumes on this from the last few years.

Putting him in left already hurt Ellsbury (litterally). Cameron has taken some of the worst routes I have ever seen to baseballs so far this season, but hes actually got burned on them. If they both take bad routes anyways, Ill take Ellsbury with better speed. Im so sick of hearing about UZR ratings. You know who had the best defensive numbers last year? The Pittsburgh Pirates. Whos better, the Phillies banging out homeruns with Howard, Werth and Utley or the Pirates?

LOL it is just a defensive measurment, not sure what home runs have to do with defense. It can vary alot year to year but is pretty reliable over 2~3 year periods. I do know that a hit prevented is just as valuable as a hit at bat. I'm sure it takes outfielders a little while to adjust to Fenway

 

[MallCopKJ]

It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

Cameron is a better center fielder than Ellsbury, unquestionably. Ellsbury makes up for poor reads and routes in center with speed and making an occasional diving catch. The team is better with him in left. UZR speaks volumes on this from the last few years.

Putting him in left already hurt Ellsbury (litterally). Cameron has taken some of the worst routes I have ever seen to baseballs so far this season, but hes actually got burned on them. If they both take bad routes anyways, Ill take Ellsbury with better speed. Im so sick of hearing about UZR ratings. You know who had the best defensive numbers last year? The Pittsburgh Pirates. Whos better, the Phillies banging out homeruns with Howard, Werth and Utley or the Pirates?

LOL it is just a defensive measurment, not sure what home runs have to do with defense. It can vary alot year to year but is pretty reliable over 2~3 year periods. I do know that a hit prevented is just as valuable as a hit at bat. I'm sure it takes outfielders a little while to adjust to Fenway

I would like to know what the gain is from having a high UZR. If your going to use it to try to prove 1 guy is better than another, there must be something positive gained by having that rating right? So if thats true, a team full of highly ranked UZR guys should beat the better offensive team, right? Thats what it sounds like your saying and what the fans have been fed by Epstein all offseason.

 

[cowboysrule48]

Sweeeeeeep Caroline!

 

[andyduke86]

[quote="andyduke86":zxhfu9c6]It kills me to see Sox fans pissed about signing Cameron and Beltre and letting Bay walk. The team is much better overall with those two than Bay. Bay is not that good. They'd be the third best in the division either way. It's a long season and they still have plenty of time to turn it around.

Anyways, this game today got ugly fast!

So in essence the Sox traded Manny Ramirez for what? Nothing? Its one thing to let Jason Bay go, to replace him with Mike Cameron, in a situation where you move the better fielder to left is stupid. Ellsbury shouldnt have to move to a new position for Mike Cameron. Sorry but this isnt 2001.

Cameron is a better center fielder than Ellsbury, unquestionably. Ellsbury makes up for poor reads and routes in center with speed and making an occasional diving catch. The team is better with him in left. UZR speaks volumes on this from the last few years.

Putting him in left already hurt Ellsbury (litterally). Cameron has taken some of the worst routes I have ever seen to baseballs so far this season, but hes actually got burned on them. If they both take bad routes anyways, Ill take Ellsbury with better speed. Im so sick of hearing about UZR ratings. You know who had the best defensive numbers last year? The Pittsburgh Pirates. Whos better, the Phillies banging out homeruns with Howard, Werth and Utley or the Pirates?

LOL it is just a defensive measurment, not sure what home runs have to do with defense. It can vary alot year to year but is pretty reliable over 2~3 year periods. I do know that a hit prevented is just as valuable as a hit at bat. I'm sure it takes outfielders a little while to adjust to Fenway

I would like to know what the gain is from having a high UZR. If your going to use it to try to prove 1 guy is better than another, there must be something positive gained by having that rating right? So if thats true, a team full of highly ranked UZR guys should beat the better offensive team, right? Thats what it sounds like your saying and what the fans have been fed by Epstein all offseason.[/quote:zxhfu9c6]

You are missing the basic point and very much over simplifying it. A hit prevented on defense is just as valuable if not more so than one on offense. It adds up over a year.

My only assertions were that Jason Bay is not worth the money and Cameron is better in center than Ellsbury. Bay's traditional stats are inflated by the Monster and his horrible defense diminishes his overall contribution to the team. It will be an exceptionally bad contract on the back end of the deal too. As far as Cameron over Ellsbury in center, there is no real argument that Ellsbury is better defensively. Cameron is simply better defensively. Cameron also had a significantly higher OPS each of Ellsbury's two full seasons (Ellsbury is not really going to get much better) so you could make a strong case that Cameron is actually better offensively than Ellsbury. You might also think Cameron's numbers would improve hitting in Fenway, though you may say he will decline with age. I really don't see how the team would be better with Ellsbury in center than Cameron.

 

[rymflaherty]

Maybe it's silly, but I'm putting this one on Ortiz/Beltre - for not being able to come through with the freaking bases loaded and none/one out in that suspended game.

That was just horrible and totally deflating....no reason they shouldn't have won that first game and I really believe it would have carried over into the second game that night. Not that I think it would have turned out to be a Sox sweep, but just a sacfly there gives them at least one game and I really believe it would have been at least a 2-2 series.

 

[notjomommasclint]

there is no way david ortiz ever hits his weight! just sayin

 

[scotty21690]

there is no way david ortiz ever hits his weight! just sayin

Is it sad that I wish we were an NL team so our pitcher would bat instead of Ortiz?