The offer the Mariners turned down for Felix Hernandez

[Pinbreaker]

After watching Felix mature into the Ace of the M's. I would hate to see them trade him away..

It would show me that they don't care about winning and are just here to be like Minnesota, Oakland, and Kansas City.. Pay just enough to make it look like you are trying.. and take the cash to the bank..

I can see the Yankees trying for Felix as well this off season..

 

[Zymco]

Felix is the best young pitcher in the game. He shouldn't be traded, for anyone.

 

[shephech]

The Tigers also supposedly put an offer forward to the M's for Felix or atleast inquired.

And just my opinion I would never take that offer for King Felix.

Shep :ugeek:

 

[Brett Keith]

The Red Sox want Felix? Buchholz, Bowden, Tazawa, Rizzo, Westmoreland. As good as Bard is, the M's aren't hurting for young, power arms in the bullpen(Aumont, Fields). Reddick is also very good, but we already have from right to left, Ichiro, Franklin Gutierrez, and Michael Saunders. Then ofcourse Ackley is supposedly going to be converted into an OF'er. Westmoreland is far enough away to go after and see what shakes out with the situation. We'd leave you Casey Kelly and Lars Anderson.

That's not an unreasonable deal. Tazawa in Seattle might make some waves with the population (good waves). I'd close Bard over Fields (although the two of them going 8th/9th could be a force), but are they really going to leave Aumont in the bullpen?

I don't think it's unreasonable either. Considering what it would have cost them to get Halladay, well Felix over the next two years will be close to as good, or as good, but at a fraction of the price. The Sox would have an ace for probably under $10 million a year. Also, I'd choose Bard over Fields as well, atleast the Fields that's been playing this year. I'm just saying we don't NEED Bard, but his value is very high, so we'd be giving up a lot of value for a position we seem ok at. As for Aumont, I do not know. They've given no indication they're changing direction, so for now I have to consider him a reliever. They could be doing this as an extreme way to control his innings, or maybe some other reason they're not talking about, but I would like to see him atleast get another shot, a chance to show what he can or can't do.

Also, I just want to add this after reading Pinbreaker's response. I absolutely don't want to see Felix traded, or let to leave. The M's spent all this time developing him into an ace, then just to let him go before he hits his prime, heartbreaking. The M's aren't a small market team, they shouldn't act like one, but if they think they won't be able to get a deal done with him at a reasonable price, they might as well make a potential team building deal.

 

[KC37]

After watching Felix mature into the Ace of the M's. I would hate to see them trade him away..

It would show me that they don't care about winning and are just here to be like Minnesota, Oakland, and Kansas City.. Pay just enough to make it look like you are trying.. and take the cash to the bank..

I can see the Yankees trying for Felix as well this off season..

For the good of baseball, I don't think he should be traded. I'd like there to be 10 teams with a shot every September.

But as a Sox fan - Beckett, Felix, Lester? Lovely...

 

[Frow]

Hopefully the Mariners realize that Felix is more than their number 1 starter. He puts fans in the seats, much like Ichiro, brings a new demographic as a Mariner fan, and lastly, takes the pressure off their shaky bullpen, knowing their ace-in-the-hole has no problems going 7 or 8 strong.

You know what else puts butts in seats? Winning.

How many games do you think the M's would win with Clay and Daniel Bard? Would Clay be a front of the line guy? Sure he has shown flashes of being a #1 but he is still a year or two away from full potential. Felix is there with 2 years of age on Clay. Put Clay, Bard and the other guys offered and they are going to lose a ton of games for a few years.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Clay is better than Felix (I know I'm not).
I'm arguing that getting 5 potential starters (at least two of which being difference makers) is better than one guy languishing on a 3rd place team.

I agree that getting 5 starters for one guy would be a great deal, unfortunately 5 minors leaguers does not equal 5 starters and if half of them have success in the majors then that's going to be well above average.

 

[onehrk]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

 

[brouthercard]

Yah, I would never trade a 2004 bowman chrome Felix auto for a 2005 bowman chrome Buchholz, 2006 bowman chrome draft Masterson, 2007 bowman chrome draft Hagadone auto, and a 2008 bowman chrome draft Reddick auto. They would have to throw in at least a 2006 bowman chrome Jon Lester chrome blue refractor auto or a 2003 bowman chrome Papelbon xfractor at least!

 

[KC37]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

 

[thefasterblade]

I would never do this trade. I don't even believe in Buchholz anymore.

 

[Sly]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

 

[sportscardtheory]

I'll bet all the Boston fans would have LOVED this trade, lol.

 

[KC37]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

Yes, I made the comparison. Of course Lester isn't the ace - Beckett is. But Beckett's age and salary do not make him a comparison to Felix. Felix also would not be the ace in Boston, it would still be Beckett.

What I'm confused about is why people keep making this into a Buchholz-for-Felix-straight up trade. I think I've tried to make it clear that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. And, I never mentioned the no-hitter, nor will I, for reasons not unlike the names you've mentioned. A no-hitter is a one-night performance where everything goes right. Felix threw a one-hitter at Fenway that was more dominating that any no-hitter I can remember. Hell, the Clemens (x2) and Wood 20 K games might be considered more dominant.

Right now, the M's starting rotation has Ryan Rowland-Smith, Ian Snell, Luke French, the ever-injured Erik Bedard, Carlos Silva, Jason Vargas among the people taking regular 5-day turns. The only other legit starter they had got flipped to Detroit. Do any of those names scream long-term stability to you? So, essentially, you'll try and compete against the Angels, and the offensive juggernaut of Texas with one true stud, and 4 guys that you can flip a coin on, including Snell (who couldn't stay with the Pirates this year) and French (who went into the year as BA's 7th-ranked LHP, far outside the organization's Top 30).
Or, you can take your pick of one of the strongest systems in the league, and if you choose to not take Buchholz, then you don't have to. I personally think Bowden is better, Tazawa is better, and Pimental and Kelly could end up being better. They're certainly comparable to what's getting run out there.

And, while I don't think anything serious about it, there is some talk that Felix's new motion is too similar to Bedard's, and may not be good for him in the long run. Again, I don't subscribe to it, but I'm not a pitching coach, trainer, or anyone with any actual expertise.

 

[Sly]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

Yes, I made the comparison. Of course Lester isn't the ace - Beckett is. But Beckett's age and salary do not make him a comparison to Felix. Felix also would not be the ace in Boston, it would still be Beckett.

What I'm confused about is why people keep making this into a Buchholz-for-Felix-straight up trade. I think I've tried to make it clear that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. And, I never mentioned the no-hitter, nor will I, for reasons not unlike the names you've mentioned. A no-hitter is a one-night performance where everything goes right. Felix threw a one-hitter at Fenway that was more dominating that any no-hitter I can remember. Hell, the Clemens (x2) and Wood 20 K games might be considered more dominant.

Right now, the M's starting rotation has Ryan Rowland-Smith, Ian Snell, Luke French, the ever-injured Erik Bedard, Carlos Silva, Jason Vargas among the people taking regular 5-day turns. The only other legit starter they had got flipped to Detroit. Do any of those names scream long-term stability to you? So, essentially, you'll try and compete against the Angels, and the offensive juggernaut of Texas with one true stud, and 4 guys that you can flip a coin on, including Snell (who couldn't stay with the Pirates this year) and French (who went into the year as BA's 7th-ranked LHP, far outside the organization's Top 30).
Or, you can take your pick of one of the strongest systems in the league, and if you choose to not take Buchholz, then you don't have to. I personally think Bowden is better, Tazawa is better, and Pimental and Kelly could end up being better. They're certainly comparable to what's getting run out there.

And, while I don't think anything serious about it, there is some talk that Felix's new motion is too similar to Bedard's, and may not be good for him in the long run. Again, I don't subscribe to it, but I'm not a pitching coach, trainer, or anyone with any actual expertise.

I'm not looking at it as Buchholz for Felix, but many look at Buchholz as the key to the trade, and have been saying how he's such a great pitcher...but the fact is, he's not.

If you're going to trade Felix, trade him for a guy who can jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW and be a #2 or maybe even a #3 guy...Buchholz can't. Buchholz is a career 6-11 with a 5.64 ERA.

For as much as people are taking shots at Rowland-Smith, look at his numbers. He is NOT a bad pitcher, and actually fits in very well as the #3 guy right now. When healthy, Bedard is a good #2, and BOTH are better than Buchholz.

If you watched Snell last night, he looked very good.

So basically, when all healthy, you've got Felix, Bedard, RRS and Snell. Now throw in French who has looked solid this season, you've got a decent rotation, and ALL have better number than Buchholz. Hell, Jason Vargas has better numbers than Buchholz...and substitute him for Bedard, and it's not the greatest rotation, but it's not bad. Let's then not forget Morrow who will be back up in September and if he can get his stuff together, will be in the rotation next year.

People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz.

As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL. But on that, you've got Aumont and Fields that you've drafted in the first round in two of the last four seasons, why go out and get another potential closer?

Masterson...he's a middle reliever, the M's have plenty of those.

And on top of it, Felix is YOUNGER than all of these guys and has already accomplished SO MUCH more.

And the other guys...how many are ready right now or are going to be a #1 or #2 starter in the next year or two.

There is NO REASON this would have been a good deal for the Mariners. At 23 years old, when you can build your franchise around that guy, you don't trade him away for guys who will be bit-players, because not a single one of those guys proposed will be stars or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has.

 

[bradical]

The truth of the matter is no other organization would have put Felix in the position he is in now, other than the Mariners. The Mariners were desperate for pitching in 2005, but to call up a 19 year old kid to take the reigns of your pitching staff? Any other team would have laughed at that decision.

While I don't agree with their original plan of limiting his pitch count and the way Rafeal Chavez handled him as a pitching coach, I feel that Felix has a sacred kinship with the club for taking such a huge risk on him, and has no intentions on ever leaving the Northwest, no matter what type of Boras-esk numbers get presented to him.

 

[KC37]

I'm not looking at it as Buchholz for Felix, but many look at Buchholz as the key to the trade, and have been saying how he's such a great pitcher...but the fact is, he's not.

If you're going to trade Felix, trade him for a guy who can jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW and be a #2 or maybe even a #3 guy...Buchholz can't. Buchholz is a career 6-11 with a 5.64 ERA.

For as much as people are taking shots at Rowland-Smith, look at his numbers. He is NOT a bad pitcher, and actually fits in very well as the #3 guy right now. When healthy, Bedard is a good #2, and BOTH are better than Buchholz.

If you watched Snell last night, he looked very good.

So basically, when all healthy, you've got Felix, Bedard, RRS and Snell. Now throw in French who has looked solid this season, you've got a decent rotation, and ALL have better number than Buchholz. Hell, Jason Vargas has better numbers than Buchholz...and substitute him for Bedard, and it's not the greatest rotation, but it's not bad. Let's then not forget Morrow who will be back up in September and if he can get his stuff together, will be in the rotation next year.

People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz.

As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL. But on that, you've got Aumont and Fields that you've drafted in the first round in two of the last four seasons, why go out and get another potential closer?

Masterson...he's a middle reliever, the M's have plenty of those.

And on top of it, Felix is YOUNGER than all of these guys and has already accomplished SO MUCH more.

And the other guys...how many are ready right now or are going to be a #1 or #2 starter in the next year or two.

There is NO REASON this would have been a good deal for the Mariners. At 23 years old, when you can build your franchise around that guy, you don't trade him away for guys who will be bit-players, because not a single one of those guys proposed will be stars or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has.

OK - forget Buchholz. I will not mention him, and you take him out of any response.

No one needs to jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW (your emphasis, not mine). Right now, Seattle is 10 out of the West, and 11 out of the Wild Card, with team(s) to jump in both races. Can we agree this year has a decent shot of being moot...

So now, you're looking forward. To look forward, let's go back. In 2002, Roy Halladay - maybe the dominant pitcher of this decade - was 25. He went 19-7 with a sub-3.00 ERA, and overall had a pretty impressive year; put himself on the map. However, the Jays finished 3rd that year, because the rest of that staff was Esteban Loiza, Pete Walker, Justin Miller, and a young Chris Carpenter.
2003, same deal. Carpenter gets released, and Halladay gets a rotation of Cory Lidle, Kelvim Escobar, Mark Hendrickson and Doug Davis. Halladay wins the Cy Young, Toronto finishes 3rd again.
After that, Halladay doesn't even get through full seasons in 2004 and 2005. So on and so forth.

My point is, Toronto, in their prime, couldn't do anything with the best pitcher in the game, and that kind of supporting staff. So is it all that outrageous to think about trading a young ace, if it can get you multiple pieces that will downgrade the #1 starter, but maybe improve 2 and 3 with new players, and now RRS becomes an above average #4? It doesn't even have to be this Sox deal we're talking about - pick your team, system, and prospects. Would you be against it in every single case?

If I'm a GM, I think about it.

 

[Tomlinson21RB]

Very few baseball teams know how to rebuild. Look to the NBA to see how it is done. There is no use staying in the middle of the pack. You either don't make the playoffs or get knocked out in the first round. You don't get the top draft picks, and no one wants to sign there because the team is stuck in a cycle. The trick is to blow up the team, get some nice draft picks, trade for some great young talent, and ride it out for a few years. It won't look pretty at first, but eventually you'll have the assets to add to your starting line up or trade off for proven vets. This is how the Celtics won a championship, the Blazers returned to the top, and the Sonics/Thunder look so promising. Felix is great, and is someone you build around, but the problem is the Mariners don't have enough talent to surround him or trade off to get young guys to grow with Felix.

 

[MallCopKJ]

Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

Yes, I made the comparison. Of course Lester isn't the ace - Beckett is. But Beckett's age and salary do not make him a comparison to Felix. Felix also would not be the ace in Boston, it would still be Beckett.

What I'm confused about is why people keep making this into a Buchholz-for-Felix-straight up trade. I think I've tried to make it clear that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. And, I never mentioned the no-hitter, nor will I, for reasons not unlike the names you've mentioned. A no-hitter is a one-night performance where everything goes right. Felix threw a one-hitter at Fenway that was more dominating that any no-hitter I can remember. Hell, the Clemens (x2) and Wood 20 K games might be considered more dominant.

Right now, the M's starting rotation has Ryan Rowland-Smith, Ian Snell, Luke French, the ever-injured Erik Bedard, Carlos Silva, Jason Vargas among the people taking regular 5-day turns. The only other legit starter they had got flipped to Detroit. Do any of those names scream long-term stability to you? So, essentially, you'll try and compete against the Angels, and the offensive juggernaut of Texas with one true stud, and 4 guys that you can flip a coin on, including Snell (who couldn't stay with the Pirates this year) and French (who went into the year as BA's 7th-ranked LHP, far outside the organization's Top 30).
Or, you can take your pick of one of the strongest systems in the league, and if you choose to not take Buchholz, then you don't have to. I personally think Bowden is better, Tazawa is better, and Pimental and Kelly could end up being better. They're certainly comparable to what's getting run out there.

And, while I don't think anything serious about it, there is some talk that Felix's new motion is too similar to Bedard's, and may not be good for him in the long run. Again, I don't subscribe to it, but I'm not a pitching coach, trainer, or anyone with any actual expertise.

I'm not looking at it as Buchholz for Felix, but many look at Buchholz as the key to the trade, and have been saying how he's such a great pitcher...but the fact is, he's not.

If you're going to trade Felix, trade him for a guy who can jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW and be a #2 or maybe even a #3 guy...Buchholz can't. Buchholz is a career 6-11 with a 5.64 ERA.

For as much as people are taking shots at Rowland-Smith, look at his numbers. He is NOT a bad pitcher, and actually fits in very well as the #3 guy right now. When healthy, Bedard is a good #2, and BOTH are better than Buchholz.

If you watched Snell last night, he looked very good.

So basically, when all healthy, you've got Felix, Bedard, RRS and Snell. Now throw in French who has looked solid this season, you've got a decent rotation, and ALL have better number than Buchholz. Hell, Jason Vargas has better numbers than Buchholz...and substitute him for Bedard, and it's not the greatest rotation, but it's not bad. Let's then not forget Morrow who will be back up in September and if he can get his stuff together, will be in the rotation next year.

People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz.

As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL. But on that, you've got Aumont and Fields that you've drafted in the first round in two of the last four seasons, why go out and get another potential closer?

Masterson...he's a middle reliever, the M's have plenty of those.

And on top of it, Felix is YOUNGER than all of these guys and has already accomplished SO MUCH more.

And the other guys...how many are ready right now or are going to be a #1 or #2 starter in the next year or two.

There is NO REASON this would have been a good deal for the Mariners. At 23 years old, when you can build your franchise around that guy, you don't trade him away for guys who will be bit-players, because not a single one of those guys proposed will be stars or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has.

I wasnt going to say anything until I saw that and now I know you have NO IDEA whatsoever about what your talking about.

 

[Sly]

[quote="onehrk":3j4pu6l2]Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

Yes, I made the comparison. Of course Lester isn't the ace - Beckett is. But Beckett's age and salary do not make him a comparison to Felix. Felix also would not be the ace in Boston, it would still be Beckett.

What I'm confused about is why people keep making this into a Buchholz-for-Felix-straight up trade. I think I've tried to make it clear that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. And, I never mentioned the no-hitter, nor will I, for reasons not unlike the names you've mentioned. A no-hitter is a one-night performance where everything goes right. Felix threw a one-hitter at Fenway that was more dominating that any no-hitter I can remember. Hell, the Clemens (x2) and Wood 20 K games might be considered more dominant.

Right now, the M's starting rotation has Ryan Rowland-Smith, Ian Snell, Luke French, the ever-injured Erik Bedard, Carlos Silva, Jason Vargas among the people taking regular 5-day turns. The only other legit starter they had got flipped to Detroit. Do any of those names scream long-term stability to you? So, essentially, you'll try and compete against the Angels, and the offensive juggernaut of Texas with one true stud, and 4 guys that you can flip a coin on, including Snell (who couldn't stay with the Pirates this year) and French (who went into the year as BA's 7th-ranked LHP, far outside the organization's Top 30).
Or, you can take your pick of one of the strongest systems in the league, and if you choose to not take Buchholz, then you don't have to. I personally think Bowden is better, Tazawa is better, and Pimental and Kelly could end up being better. They're certainly comparable to what's getting run out there.

And, while I don't think anything serious about it, there is some talk that Felix's new motion is too similar to Bedard's, and may not be good for him in the long run. Again, I don't subscribe to it, but I'm not a pitching coach, trainer, or anyone with any actual expertise.

I'm not looking at it as Buchholz for Felix, but many look at Buchholz as the key to the trade, and have been saying how he's such a great pitcher...but the fact is, he's not.

If you're going to trade Felix, trade him for a guy who can jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW and be a #2 or maybe even a #3 guy...Buchholz can't. Buchholz is a career 6-11 with a 5.64 ERA.

For as much as people are taking shots at Rowland-Smith, look at his numbers. He is NOT a bad pitcher, and actually fits in very well as the #3 guy right now. When healthy, Bedard is a good #2, and BOTH are better than Buchholz.

If you watched Snell last night, he looked very good.

So basically, when all healthy, you've got Felix, Bedard, RRS and Snell. Now throw in French who has looked solid this season, you've got a decent rotation, and ALL have better number than Buchholz. Hell, Jason Vargas has better numbers than Buchholz...and substitute him for Bedard, and it's not the greatest rotation, but it's not bad. Let's then not forget Morrow who will be back up in September and if he can get his stuff together, will be in the rotation next year.

People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz.

As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL. But on that, you've got Aumont and Fields that you've drafted in the first round in two of the last four seasons, why go out and get another potential closer?

Masterson...he's a middle reliever, the M's have plenty of those.

And on top of it, Felix is YOUNGER than all of these guys and has already accomplished SO MUCH more.

And the other guys...how many are ready right now or are going to be a #1 or #2 starter in the next year or two.

There is NO REASON this would have been a good deal for the Mariners. At 23 years old, when you can build your franchise around that guy, you don't trade him away for guys who will be bit-players, because not a single one of those guys proposed will be stars or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has.

I wasnt going to say anything until I saw that and now I know you have NO IDEA whatsoever about what your talking about.[/quote:3j4pu6l2]

Boy...way to make a point... : ::facepalm::

Please explain why I have no idea what I'm talking about...

 

[MallCopKJ]

[quote="bungle77":3mgh5p2o][quote="onehrk":3mgh5p2o]Just an observation: Aside from Jaypers, looks like only Red Sox fans think this is a good deal. Exactly why it isn't a good deal. I would have turned it down as well.

A very good point. So maybe, it can be flipped like this...and get ready for a lot of ifs...

If I were the Red Sox, and I were habitually in third place, and needed a rather drastic shift to compete with the division leaders, would I trade Jon Lester for 5 prospects, 4 of which being regarded as Top 10 prospects?

If he were right-handed (because I think that Lester being a lefty counts for a little more)...yes.

Brett makes a great point about Seattle having some young talent coming up, so maybe in this case they don't have to make a move like this. So, would the deal make more sense to a team with a worse farm system (like to the Dodgers for Billingsley)?

In any case, this thread has had some good points on both sides. And no name calling.

Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff.

And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A! Buchholz has a career 5.64 ERA and not even a 2:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

Compare Buchholz and Felix at age 24. At age 24, Felix was...oh wait, he's not even 24 years old yet!!!

I'm sorry to all Sox fans, Clay Buchholz is overrated. And anyone who cares to pull out the "no hitter" card, I remind you all of Bud Smith, Wilson Alvarez, Tommy Greene...they all threw no-hitters too.

Jack Z. needs to take the money that's coming off the books next year (Wash, Beltre, etc.) and sign Felix to a long-term deal. Give him $15M a year for 5 years. By the time he comes up for Free Agency, he'll be in his prime!!!

Yes, I made the comparison. Of course Lester isn't the ace - Beckett is. But Beckett's age and salary do not make him a comparison to Felix. Felix also would not be the ace in Boston, it would still be Beckett.

What I'm confused about is why people keep making this into a Buchholz-for-Felix-straight up trade. I think I've tried to make it clear that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. And, I never mentioned the no-hitter, nor will I, for reasons not unlike the names you've mentioned. A no-hitter is a one-night performance where everything goes right. Felix threw a one-hitter at Fenway that was more dominating that any no-hitter I can remember. Hell, the Clemens (x2) and Wood 20 K games might be considered more dominant.

Right now, the M's starting rotation has Ryan Rowland-Smith, Ian Snell, Luke French, the ever-injured Erik Bedard, Carlos Silva, Jason Vargas among the people taking regular 5-day turns. The only other legit starter they had got flipped to Detroit. Do any of those names scream long-term stability to you? So, essentially, you'll try and compete against the Angels, and the offensive juggernaut of Texas with one true stud, and 4 guys that you can flip a coin on, including Snell (who couldn't stay with the Pirates this year) and French (who went into the year as BA's 7th-ranked LHP, far outside the organization's Top 30).
Or, you can take your pick of one of the strongest systems in the league, and if you choose to not take Buchholz, then you don't have to. I personally think Bowden is better, Tazawa is better, and Pimental and Kelly could end up being better. They're certainly comparable to what's getting run out there.

And, while I don't think anything serious about it, there is some talk that Felix's new motion is too similar to Bedard's, and may not be good for him in the long run. Again, I don't subscribe to it, but I'm not a pitching coach, trainer, or anyone with any actual expertise.

I'm not looking at it as Buchholz for Felix, but many look at Buchholz as the key to the trade, and have been saying how he's such a great pitcher...but the fact is, he's not.

If you're going to trade Felix, trade him for a guy who can jump into the rotation RIGHT NOW and be a #2 or maybe even a #3 guy...Buchholz can't. Buchholz is a career 6-11 with a 5.64 ERA.

For as much as people are taking shots at Rowland-Smith, look at his numbers. He is NOT a bad pitcher, and actually fits in very well as the #3 guy right now. When healthy, Bedard is a good #2, and BOTH are better than Buchholz.

If you watched Snell last night, he looked very good.

So basically, when all healthy, you've got Felix, Bedard, RRS and Snell. Now throw in French who has looked solid this season, you've got a decent rotation, and ALL have better number than Buchholz. Hell, Jason Vargas has better numbers than Buchholz...and substitute him for Bedard, and it's not the greatest rotation, but it's not bad. Let's then not forget Morrow who will be back up in September and if he can get his stuff together, will be in the rotation next year.

People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz.

As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL. But on that, you've got Aumont and Fields that you've drafted in the first round in two of the last four seasons, why go out and get another potential closer?

Masterson...he's a middle reliever, the M's have plenty of those.

And on top of it, Felix is YOUNGER than all of these guys and has already accomplished SO MUCH more.

And the other guys...how many are ready right now or are going to be a #1 or #2 starter in the next year or two.

There is NO REASON this would have been a good deal for the Mariners. At 23 years old, when you can build your franchise around that guy, you don't trade him away for guys who will be bit-players, because not a single one of those guys proposed will be stars or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has.

I wasnt going to say anything until I saw that and now I know you have NO IDEA whatsoever about what your talking about.[/quote:3mgh5p2o]

Boy...way to make a point... : ::facepalm::

Please explain why I have no idea what I'm talking about...[/quote:3mgh5p2o]

Well I didnt think I had to make my point because you can apparently can predict the future as you just discredited the entire Red Sox minor leagues top prospects. Did anyone think Dustin Pedroia would be an MVP when he was in the Minor Leagues? PEople hated him when he started in the Majors let alone the Minors. Who thought Youkilis would be anything more than an on base guy with a lot of walks? Navarro has been compared defensively to Ozzie Smith. Hes already getting more praise for his overall game than Hanley did when he was in the system. Did anyone think Hanley would be a top 2 player in baseball? This team has produced nothing but Major League ready guys who have produced since this new regime took over. Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Hanley Ramirez, David Murphy, Lowrie, Papelbon, Lester. Now all of a sudden 5 of their top 8 guys are not going to hit? Im thinking thats not accurate.

"or will ever be able to take over the #1 rotation spot that Felix has."

Is that not why they were offering 5 players for him??????????

"Did you seriously just compare Jon Lester to Felix Hernandez??? Give me a break. Lester isn't even the ace of the Red Sox staff."
Ok?
Hernandez Career: 51-40, 1.29 WHIP, .256 BAA, 3.61 ERA, 6 CG, 4 Shutouts.
Lester Career: 36-15, 1.37 WHIP, .263 BAA, 3.83 ERA, 4 CG, 2 Shutouts, 1 no hitter. Lester also had to battle cancer in the middle of this and hes pitching in a tougher division.

"And does anyone here seriously think that Clay Buchholz can be the ace of a staff?? Let's not forget, he started off this season in Triple-A!"

Because they had 7 pitchers in their starting rotation! 2 of which they signed in the offseason. Yes he started in Triple A and he went 7-2 with a 2.36 ERA.

"As for Bard, let's wait till he's pitched a few more times against good teams before calling him a future closer! 15 of his 27 innings have been against KC, OAK, TOR and BAL."

You cant take a team with a bad record and assume they are good teams for pitchers to face. Just because the pitching sucks doesnt mean the offense does. Toronto and Baltimore are bordering on GREAT offensive teams and both are LOADED with talent.They rank 4th and 5th OVERALL in offense. Hernandez pitches in Oaklands division so do you discredit him when he pitches against them and does well, like you did Bard?

"People are putting WAY too much stock in Buchholz."

Apparently you are because theres 8 players listed and you keep going back to him like its a 1-1 proposed deal.


At any rate, obviously the Mariners werent going to be trading him because they also turned down Adrian Gonzalez and prospects for Hernandez. I guess you cant build a franchise around him either. Would you trade Hernandez for Pujols?