The REAL HR KINGS?

[moxacaine]

^^ I trust individuals unless a reason is given to believe otherwise...I maintain this attitude in all aspects of life.

If Hank Aaron admitted that he used drugs, or there was substantiated proof that he did, I would agree with above.

Look at it this way. If we would switch Aaron and Bonds as far as era. Bonds would be squeeky clean because there was nothing ever to prove it and Aaron would be the one getting the 3rd degree about roids whether he did them or not.

Thats a big IF. Hank Aaron DID play in a different era, so in my mind, there is no reason to even consider that scenario.
If Hank Aaron was built like bonds....If Hank Aaron did play in this ERa...if Hank Aaron was on trial for lying...if..if..if..

Things are as they are...Bonds owns the HR Records* because of steroids. Hank Aaron and Maris own the legitmate record because they did not.
I am perfectly happy with the asterisk, and I don't understand those that don't see that logic.
We agree to disagree.

The whole scenario is based around that fact they played in a different era. Im saying if Bonds played in the 50's, 60's, and 70's like Aaron did and Aaron played the 80's,90's, and 00's like Bonds did that Bonds ability would never get questioned however Hank Aaron would be the one today being accused of steroids. And he didnt have to be built like Bonds. Look at Palmeiro and Ortiz for example. Just becuase youre juicing doesnt mean your going to be 1% body fat and completely ripped.

Again im not saying Bonds didnt juice. Im just saying that we cant rule out the possibility that players in the other eras didnt. We would all love to say they didnt but we cant be so ingorant to not think that they may have.

But yes we will have to agree to disagree. thanks for helping some of my time here at work go by a little quicker.

 

[carrsallstars]

I just don't understand what you guys are talking about:? (edit- posts that talk about asterisks and which HR record is the real one)

Why is 61 the home run record? Babe Ruth hit 60 HR's in a season but his season was shorter than Maris' at 154.

How many HR's did Maris or Aaron hit off of roided up starting pitchers, relief pitchers, or hit to 2B or center fielders that caught balls for outs, etc.?

It annoys me when people talk like the only difference between bonds and Maris was that Bonds took some pills, shots, or creams. Ballpark sizes have changed, huge strikeout totals for hitters are now acceptable, bullpens are tailored to specialty situations (how many relievers were brought in specifically to face Maris for his final two at bats in the game like Bonds had to face?), parks were built at high altitude, more teams were added, players took amphetamines, MLB still has no testing in place for HGH, salaries are orders of magnitude different (how many MLB players have off season jobs to make ends meet nowadays?), players from all over the world and of different nationalities are now in the major leagues, and the pitcher's throwing to Maris and Bonds didn't even pitch from a mound that was the same height! Further, let's take out all of the pitchers that Bonds faced in his career that had Tommy John surgery and replace them with average pitchers to further even the playing field (so no Kerry Wood, Mariano Rivera, John Smoltz, AJ Burnett, Chris Carpenter, Josh Johnson, Billy Wagner, Eric Gagne (who would have had zero career saves) or scores of other throwers. Roger Maris had 42 intentional walks in his career (0 in 1961) and Barry Bonds had 688 (with 35 in his record year and 120 in 2004).

As far as I can tell, if you discount everything above their single season HR totals should be directly comparable. Give me a break.

I think taking steroids is cheating, I think they suck, and I wish MLB didn't have it's head in it A$$ when it came to testing for PED's and acknowledging them as part of the game. But the fact is steroids have been around since the 1950's, yes they were being used in the Olympics well in advance of Maris breaking the single season HR record (type in 1952 or 1954 and steroids and tell me if anything comes back). And anyone who thinks that athletes have not been trying to gain every advantage they possibly can is kidding themselves. It's as old as sport (nice sheep ******** reference above!- I was going to use that one!).

Add in the fact that there are NFL players playing right now in 2009 that have tested positive for steroid masking agents, he fact thta HGH is still not tested for, and the fact that testing for PED's in sports is by nature well behind the development and use of PEDs, blood doping, plasma injection, or whatever else is next and it is clear that the PED era is not, nor ever will be, over.

 

[hofautos]

^^ So you even say you consider using steroids cheating.
In most sports, if you are caught cheating (even in the olympics), you are "disqualified". That is exactly how i see it.
Bonds imo is "disqualified". Wasn't their records set by olympic champions, who's records did not count, because they were disqualified?
I am not going to say that there aren't other records that shouldn't be disqualified as well, as I am sure there are some that were not Caught.
The difference being Bonds, Sosa, McGwire were all caught so their records should be disqualified. If it is determined later than Maris did in fact cheat, his records should be disqualified as well.

IMHO, When someone is caught cheating, their records should be disqualified.

 

[Brewer Andy]

I just don't understand what you guys are talking about:? (edit- posts that talk about asterisks and which HR record is the real one)

Why is 61 the home run record? Babe Ruth hit 60 HR's in a season but his season was shorter than Maris' at 154.

How many HR's did Maris or Aaron hit off of roided up starting pitchers, relief pitchers, or hit to 2B or center fielders that caught balls for outs, etc.?

It annoys me when people talk like the only difference between bonds and Maris was that Bonds took some pills, shots, or creams. Ballpark sizes have changed, huge strikeout totals for hitters are now acceptable, bullpens are tailored to specialty situations (how many relievers were brought in specifically to face Maris for his final two at bats in the game like Bonds had to face?), parks were built at high altitude, more teams were added, players took amphetamines, MLB still has no testing in place for HGH, salaries are orders of magnitude different (how many MLB players have off season jobs to make ends meet nowadays?), players from all over the world and of different nationalities are now in the major leagues, and the pitcher's throwing to Maris and Bonds didn't even pitch from a mound that was the same height! Further, let's take out all of the pitchers that Bonds faced in his career that had Tommy John surgery and replace them with average pitchers to further even the playing field (so no Kerry Wood, Mariano Rivera, John Smoltz, AJ Burnett, Chris Carpenter, Josh Johnson, Billy Wagner, Eric Gagne (who would have had zero career saves) or scores of other throwers. Roger Maris had 42 intentional walks in his career (0 in 1961) and Barry Bonds had 688 (with 35 in his record year and 120 in 2004).

As far as I can tell, if you discount everything above their single season HR totals should be directly comparable. Give me a break.

I think taking steroids is cheating, I think they suck, and I wish MLB didn't have it's head in it A$$ when it came to testing for PED's and acknowledging them as part of the game. But the fact is steroids have been around since the 1950's, yes they were being used in the Olympics well in advance of Maris breaking the single season HR record (type in 1952 or 1954 and steroids and tell me if anything comes back). And anyone who thinks that athletes have not been trying to gain every advantage they possibly can is kidding themselves. It's as old as sport (nice sheep ******** reference above!- I was going to use that one!).

Add in the fact that there are NFL players playing right now in 2009 that have tested positive for steroid masking agents, he fact thta HGH is still not tested for, and the fact that testing for PED's in sports is by nature well behind the development and use of PEDs, blood doping, plasma injection, or whatever else is next and it is clear that the PED era is not, nor ever will be, over.

Well put and thanked. I agree with hofautos as well, a cheater caught should be disqualified, however that's just a whole 'nother can of worms no one in MLB is going to open

 

[carrsallstars]

^^ So you even say you consider using steroids cheating.
In most sports, if you are caught cheating (even in the olympics), you are "disqualified". That is exactly how i see it.
Bonds imo is "disqualified". Wasn't their records set by olympic champions, who's records did not count, because they were disqualified?
I am not going to say that there aren't other records that shouldn't be disqualified as well, as I am sure there are some that were not Caught.
The difference being Bonds, Sosa, McGwire were all caught so their records should be disqualified. If it is determined later than Maris did in fact cheat, his records should be disqualified as well.

IMHO, When someone is caught cheating, their records should be disqualified.

I could go along with that. But whose records are you disqualifying and why?

Gaylord perry threw spitballs and doctored balls on the mound and he is in the hall of fame- so is he to be kicked out and his records expunged?

Their is a reputed Robin Yount game used bat with what appears to be a cork section inserted in it- so if it could be proved he used it in a game and got one hit with it would he be out of the hall of fame?

What's your proof on Bonds- that he looks like a roider? (I agree that he was roided to the gills as my own opinion) However, the gov't agents working on his case for years would give their pinky finger to put him behind bars for perjury and saying he did not knowingly use PEDs. He is still a free man.

Or are you going by the words of a trainer/dealer who said a lot of things about a lot of people and for many there is no other proof (Are Dave Justice's postseason records off of the books? Chuck Knoblauch and many others dispute what is reported in the Mitchell report about them- in the end all we have are the opposing words of two people- not very good evidence. With Kevin Brown you have fed ex receipts but maybe he was getting stuff for a teammate, right? Yah, sure Kevin. But it is not proof he used them.)

Or are you disqualifying records based on an ill gotten list that was supposed to be kept anonymous but the government obtained illegally, leaked only a few high profile names without permission, was supposed to have no repercussion for individual players and it may never be known what the substance was that resulted in a failed test? (David Ortiz, Sosa, etc.).

If you want to go by what a player says then we've caught: McGwire, Arod (for a couple of seasons but not others), Canseco, Wally Joyner, Tim Laker, Glenallen Hill, Jim Parque, Mark Carreon, Chad Allen, Mike Bell, Gary Bennett, Brendan Donnelly, Matt Herges, Brian Robert, F.P. Santangelo, Fernando Vina, Ricky Bones and Andy Pettite (I'm sure there are others too) but Clemens and Eric Gagne are innocent and keep their records.

Or are you saying it only become relevant if someone breaks a "record"? If you are one of the majority of players who are not breaking records but you are juicing and played against players breaking records then it just doesn't matter? (Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, Denny Neagle, Kent Merker, etc. etc. etc.) That doesn't make sense.

 

[kdailey4315]

I'm curious as to what you guys are considering "caught cheating?" An admission? Failed test? Speculation? Supposed leaked testimony? Mitchel Report? Evidence from an IRS agent who has a vendetta against a few athletes?

 

[hofautos]

...
IMHO, When someone is caught cheating, their records should be disqualified.

I could go along with that. But whose records are you disqualifying and why?

Gaylord perry threw spitballs and doctored balls on the mound and he is in the hall of fame- so is he to be kicked out and his records expunged?

I am talking specifically about Bonds and McGwires HR records, because they cheated and I believe their records should be disqualified.
I am not aware of any records that Gaylord Perry or Yount have, but if they own any MLB records, and they got caught cheating in a way that helped them get those records, yes, in my opinion, those records should be disqualified as well.

 

[hofautos]

I'm curious as to what you guys are considering "caught cheating?" An admission? Failed test? Speculation? Supposed leaked testimony? Mitchel Report? Evidence from an IRS agent who has a vendetta against a few athletes?

FOr me, there are only a few people that have been accused of steroid usage, that I feel are capable of breaking the records:

McGwire=already admitted
Sosa= I am not even sure if he admitted or not yet?
Bonds= Already Admitted (edit)
Arod=Already admitted

 

[kdailey4315]

I'm curious as to what you guys are considering "caught cheating?" An admission? Failed test? Speculation? Supposed leaked testimony? Mitchel Report? Evidence from an IRS agent who has a vendetta against a few athletes?

FOr me, there are only a few people that have been accused of steroid usage, that I feel are capable of breaking the records:

McGwire=already admitted
Sosa= I am not even sure if he admitted or not yet?
Bonds= Overwhelming evidence (where 90+% believe he took steroids, I believe there is enough evidence)
Arod=Already admitted

Just playing devil's advocate but are the sources for Bonds usage all that credible?

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Barry Bonds admitted to taking steroids under oath did he not? Basically, the entire perjury case is whether or not he "knowingly" took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

 

[hofautos]

Barry Bonds admitted to taking steroids under oath did he not? Basically, the entire perjury case is whether or not he "knowingly" took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

you are right..thanks for the clarification..i remember now, duh? Do you know where sosa stands?

 

[kdailey4315]

Barry Bonds admitted to taking steroids under oath did he not? Basically, the entire perjury case is whether or not he "knowingly" took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

Then why has the government not been able to gather enough evidence for 2 years to even bring charges against him on a perjury case? Every charge has been thrown out and they just keep asking for extensions.

 

[bballcardkid]

Just playing devil's advocate:

Who's to say 61 and 755 are clean? Amphetamines were pretty prevelant back then. Plus, imagine Maris's career path today. People would scream steroids.

Ive been saying this from the beginning. Steroids have been around since the 40's who is to say Maris and Aaron didnt take them? If we're going to blindly accuse current players then we have to do the same for them.

Steroids have been around since the beginning of man. Our sacs are filled with them. Well, at least mine is.

As for how I perceive the current record. Bonds is the sole owner of both. There should be no asterick, and there should be no taking away. Last time I checked, the Reds don't have an asterick next to their 1919 world series, and that situation was a whole lot worse than taking a supplement developed by modern science. Do I think 73 will be touched? I'm skeptical to think anyone will pass Maris' old record right now, let alone 73. I think the all time mark will be surpassed eventually.

 

[hofautos]

Steroids have been around since the beginning of man.

I don't think anyone's debating when steroids were produced...I am just saying that I think if someone gets caught, their records should be disqualified.
Ben Johnson, for one, rescinded his 100m olympic record after getting caught doing drugs...and I believe there are many others.

I also am sure there were records beat by those who cheated that didn't get caught...but it is still my opinion that if you get caught, the record should be rescinded.

 

[bballcardkid]

Steroids have been around since the beginning of man.

I don't think anyone's debating when steroids were produced...I am just saying that I think if someone gets caught, their records should be disqualified.
Ben Johnson, for one, rescinded his 100m olympic record after getting caught doing drugs...and I believe there are many others.

I also am sure there were records beat by those who cheated that didn't get caught...but it is still my opinion that if you get caught, the record should be rescinded.

My personal opinion is I don't care what the player used. I'm here to be entertained. Steroids have their purpose, just like every other supplement.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

Barry Bonds admitted to taking steroids under oath did he not? Basically, the entire perjury case is whether or not he "knowingly" took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

Then why has the government not been able to gather enough evidence for 2 years to even bring charges against him on a perjury case? Every charge has been thrown out and they just keep asking for extensions.

Again, it is about whether or not he knowingly took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

"Hey Barry, here's something that will make you bigger, stronger, and heal quicker."

"What is it?"

"Don't worry about it, it's like flax seed oil."

The government is after Bonds, just like the majority of baseball is...he holds two important records, he's aloof, a bit of a jerk in public, extremely arrogant, and a wealthy superstar.

Baseball did their best to make sure that Bonds was the scapegoat for the steroid era and everyone (including the Feds) are helping.

The Feds have no case on Bonds with Greg Anderson. None. As evidenced by years of chasing Bonds with no success.

 

[kdailey4315]

Barry Bonds admitted to taking steroids under oath did he not? Basically, the entire perjury case is whether or not he "knowingly" took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

Then why has the government not been able to gather enough evidence for 2 years to even bring charges against him on a perjury case? Every charge has been thrown out and they just keep asking for extensions.

Again, it is about whether or not he knowingly took steroids, not whether or not he took them.

"Hey Barry, here's something that will make you bigger, stronger, and heal quicker."

"What is it?"

"Don't worry about it, it's like flax seed oil."

The government is after Bonds, just like the majority of baseball is...he holds two important records, he's aloof, a bit of a jerk in public, extremely arrogant, and a wealthy superstar.

Baseball did their best to make sure that Bonds was the scapegoat for the steroid era and everyone (including the Feds) are helping.

The Feds have no case on Bonds with Greg Anderson. None. As evidenced by years of chasing Bonds with no success.

I agree with you but I'm confused. I'm pretty sure you just made my point for me. Bonds case as obvious as it is to a bunch of people seems awfully circumstantial in the eyes of the law.

 

[michaelstepper]

i'm going to throw my two cents in right now and say that over the last two decades THE greatest homerun hitters are Ken Griffey Jr and Jim thome.. and were witnessing another for the next decade in ryan howard. anyone else in that lineup bonds,sosa,mcgwire,a-rod,ramirez.. sure they hit em.. but they're all tarnished in my opinion.

 

[KOBEARODLT]

i'm going to throw my two cents in right now and say that over the last two decades THE greatest homerun hitters are Ken Griffey Jr and Jim thome.. and were witnessing another for the next decade in ryan howard. anyone else in that lineup bonds,sosa,mcgwire,a-rod,ramirez.. sure they hit em.. but they're all tarnished in my opinion.

have you ever heard of that guy on the cardinals...the best player in baseball :lol:

 

[Anthony K.]

Now that amphetamines are illegal in baseball, is it "fair" to consider Aaron and Maris' numbers as legitimate in today's game? Perhaps the numbers should all be noted.

Single Season Home Run Record: 61* - Roger Maris
Single Season Home Run Record: 73** - Barry Bonds
Career Home Run Record: 755* - Hank Aaron
Career Home Run Record: 762* - Barry Bonds

* Signifies that players were expected to use amphetamines, and this now illegal practice was promoted by owners and managers.
** Signifies that players were not tested and steroid usage should be assumed.

Can we go back far enough with truly "pristine" numbers anywhere in baseball's history? Do we know who was or wasn't eating sheep testicles? Was baseball ever pristine and saintly?

But hey, if we're in an archaic mood of showing off our asterisking skill, I think we should rethink the pitching records as well. Is it "fair" that early modern era pitchers pitched every 4th day instead of every 5th day like today? Is it fair that all pitchers had to hit until the 70s? Perhaps hitting benefits the pitcher as well, and now half of the league is excluded through the use of a "home run" hitter called a DH.

Is it possible that the true evidence of steroid usage in baseball is the advent of the DH?

Is Nolan Ryan really to be considered the "modern" single season strikeout king with his 383 Ks in 1973? That season he thew 326 innings. Randy Johnson's total of 372 in 2001 was accomplished in 75 less innings. Nolan Ryan had a clear advantage by starting 5 more games than Johnson simply due to baseball's standard practices of the time.

Seriously, we can go back and put asterisks on anything and partition baseball's history as it probably should be, but we don't. Instead we get self-righteous and want to look at history through rose colored glasses and attempt to relive an age that never existed.

Anyone who thought for a second that a guy like Bonds wasn't using (or McGwire, Sosa, etc for that matter) should have no valid opinion. Hell, they shouldn't have health care or the right to vote either. Clearly that type of person doesn't have the brain power for rational thought. The same could be said about amphetamine usage, if you don't think Aaron and Maris used amphetamines you clearly can't process the differences between reality and fantasy. So stick the Magic and D&D...or coloring books.

Oh, I know, "baseball didn't ban amphetamines," blah blah blah, but the United States did. Which is often an argument used in steroid discussions. "They were illegal." And okay sure, baseball had a sentence in place outlawing steroids, but does that really matter? Baseball is full of rules that are interpreted in different ways and some enforced and not enforced. It's fairly accepted practice to drive 7 miles an hour over the speed limit, but it's clearly illegal.

So tell me, how can an accepted practice that the majority follow really be considered illegal?

All in all, it's easy to get caught up a little fantasy world thinking that Hank Aaron is sitting on a pedestal of purity because of some weird fairytale remembrance of baseball decades ago. That fairytale is no different than Jack on the Beanstalk.

You want to know the major difference between baseball today and years ago? Reporters didn't report the negative things about players decades ago. Today, however, it means a book deal.

No news is not the same as without fault.

Do I think everyone is guilty? No, but I accept that as a possibly for the simple reason that baseball by era has always been a level playing field, but "era" is key. Baseball allows caffeine usage? But for the Mormon players out there, they cannot consume caffeine for religious beliefs? Baseball is still a level playing field even though all players may or may not participate in usage.

Oh, and if I hear another "innocent until proven guilty" crap line, I'll puke. You understand that the court of public opinion in not a court of law. Not to mention just because someone was not proven guilty in a court of law that it does not make them innocent.

Yeah yeah yeah, it's long, snarky and probably a waste of space...but steroid discussion is always such a joke about reliving a fantasy world past of non-existence.

Easily the best post in the entire thread.

I thought about having some drawn out post about how people have been cheating since the beginning of the game ("If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin' "), but, well, you've said it better than I could.

Anyways, like I mentioned earlier, the REAL home run kings are in the record books....and neither of their names are Aaron or Maris.