Topps Sues Leaf Over "Best Of" Product!

[cgilmo]

If you think that Topps doesn't and shouldn't see leaf as a serious competitor then you don't know the industry.

Topps basically has two major revenue pies.

#1 big box retail, all hail the mighty walmart

2# distributor dollars, this is where leaf can seriously dig into profits. Orders by distributors are finite, and if they order more Leaf they will order less topps.

Real competition for Topps when someone has to use their cards to be a competitor

I would recommend taking off the blinders.
Buyback products constitute less than 10% of our revenue.
ALI, Family Guy, FB Draft, Baseball Draft,MMA, Pete Rose Legacy, Vince Lombardi Collection, 2011 LEAF GOLF, 2011 Legends of Sport, Poker, POP CENTURY, US ARMY FB.... we have plenty of non-buyback products.

Bias makes even the moderately educated look stupid.
BG

Yes but your football product got laughed right out of the shop too. And about 99% of normal sports card collectors don't care about Family Guy, Poker, Pop Century, or any of that other non-sport stuff. As for your sports releases, other than the Lombardi Collection, and the Rose stuff, you basically are fooling around with propsects. I think this board has you twisted up about exactly how many people are into the prospect game. I'm behind you 100% but I need to see you do something. You haven't yet. You need to secure a license. That should be your number one goal. If you are planning on riding out the few things you can do, it won't last.

dude, you are just flat out wrong


Look into what distributors sold before you start saying things like this.

I know this because at the time I worked for a distributor that shipped leaf product all over the country in about 3/4th the rate of leaf products.

And now I own a hobby store that sells through the leaf pre season football product and Ali. Ali has been one of the best sellers of the year for the FCB retail store.

 

[shakedown420]

I don't post much but I can clear some things up here. Unlike most in this thread, I actually know a thing or two about the Lanham and Copyright Acts. This is not legal advice for anyone, but could provide some clarity on some of the issues:

There are trademark issues- obviously having the Topps logo and what not on their packaging would almost certainly be infringement without a license; this could certainly cause confusion for consumers which is the legal standard. What is basically happening is they are stealing decades of Topps' goodwill by putting cards with a Topps logo on the cover of the Leaf boxes. Consumers could see the Topps logo on the box and equate that with what they know about Topps, although the product is really a Leaf product. For instance, imagine if some startup shoe company had advertising on their boxes of basketball shoes that shows people like Lebron, Kobe, and MJ playing with their Nike shoes prominently displaying their swooshes and jumpman logos. The problem with that is obvious to anyone.

As for copyright, you should think of a card as any other work of art like a painting or photograph. Topps clearly owns the CR for these as far as any of us know. So by putting these copyrighted works on the box without permission they are likely infringing the copyright. For instance, say you have a copyright to a photograph you took or a painting you created, and someone just takes your photo/art and puts it on, say, a book cover. It's pretty easy to see the problem with that, which is essentially the same thing going on here.

 

[Lars]

Maybe it is has been mentioned or perhaps it doesn't prevent Topps from taking legal action, but maybe a disclaimer on the sell sheets / packaging saying the product isn't from Topps [or from Upper Deck] and the companies doesn't endorse the product in any manner may help.

 

[Liberate Baltimore]

From what I gather Topps is picking their battles which many major corporations have and will continue to do with their competition. Tri-Star "World's Most Wonderful Greatest Chase Treasures?--No Problem. Leaf.....well they are gaining steam. While I don't like snuffing out competition before it starts, it really is understandable why Topps is doing this....and I think they may have a chance here.

 

[SeattleSports]

If you think that Topps doesn't and shouldn't see leaf as a serious competitor then you don't know the industry.

Topps basically has two major revenue pies.

#1 big box retail, all hail the mighty walmart

2# distributor dollars, this is where leaf can seriously dig into profits. Orders by distributors are finite, and if they order more Leaf they will order less topps.

Real competition for Topps when someone has to use their cards to be a competitor

I would recommend taking off the blinders.
Buyback products constitute less than 10% of our revenue.
ALI, Family Guy, FB Draft, Baseball Draft,MMA, Pete Rose Legacy, Vince Lombardi Collection, 2011 LEAF GOLF, 2011 Legends of Sport, Poker, POP CENTURY, US ARMY FB.... we have plenty of non-buyback products.

Bias makes even the moderately educated look stupid.
BG

Yes but your football product got laughed right out of the shop too. And about 99% of normal sports card collectors don't care about Family Guy, Poker, Pop Century, or any of that other non-sport stuff. As for your sports releases, other than the Lombardi Collection, and the Rose stuff, you basically are fooling around with propsects. I think this board has you twisted up about exactly how many people are into the prospect game. I'm behind you 100% but I need to see you do something. You haven't yet. You need to secure a license. That should be your number one goal. If you are planning on riding out the few things you can do, it won't last.

Don't speak out of your ass. Leaf Metal football was one of the best products of the year across all lines. And Leaf Ali might be my favorite product overall so far this year. But by all means, keep with the solid advice I'm sure everyone is anxious to hear more.

 

[Card Magnet]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

 

[coltsnsox07]

I don't post much but I can clear some things up here. Unlike most in this thread, I actually know a thing or two about the Lanham and Copyright Acts. This is not legal advice for anyone, but could provide some clarity on some of the issues:

There are trademark issues- obviously having the Topps logo and what not on their packaging would almost certainly be infringement without a license; this could certainly cause confusion for consumers which is the legal standard. What is basically happening is they are stealing decades of Topps' goodwill by putting cards with a Topps logo on the cover of the Leaf boxes. Consumers could see the Topps logo on the box and equate that with what they know about Topps, although the product is really a Leaf product. For instance, imagine if some startup shoe company had advertising on their boxes of basketball shoes that shows people like Lebron, Kobe, and MJ playing with their Nike shoes prominently displaying their swooshes and jumpman logos. The problem with that is obvious to anyone.

As for copyright, you should think of a card as any other work of art like a painting or photograph. Topps clearly owns the CR for these as far as any of us know. So by putting these copyrighted works on the box without permission they are likely infringing the copyright. For instance, say you have a copyright to a photograph you took or a painting you created, and someone just takes your photo/art and puts it on, say, a book cover. It's pretty easy to see the problem with that, which is essentially the same thing going on here.

This is what the box looks like, no mention of brand names etc.

 

[Leaf]

Maybe it is has been mentioned or perhaps it doesn't prevent Topps from taking legal action, but maybe a disclaimer on the sell sheets / packaging saying the product isn't from Topps [or from Upper Deck] and the companies doesn't endorse the product in any manner may help.

It is at the bottom of the sell sheet.

 

[PeteD]

Funny that Leaf can sell these cards on Ebay (for example) with no problem, but Topps has an problem with them repackaging the cards for resale.

So why doesn't Topps have a problem with Ebay sellers that put up "mystery/grab bag" auctions, that state you have a chance at an auto of a player on a Topps card?

 

[predatorkj]

dude, you are just flat out wrong


Look into what distributors sold before you start saying things like this.

I know this because at the time I worked for a distributor that shipped leaf product all over the country in about 3/4th the rate of leaf products.

And now I own a hobby store that sells through the leaf pre season football product and Ali. Ali has been one of the best sellers of the year for the FCB retail store.

Look, there are two things I see when you post about anything to do with BG and Leaf. One, you like the guy, and secondly he gives some clout to the site here. You aren't the only one with a hobby shop. You aren't the only one who knows anything about cards. I don't care what people sold. I care about the fact that none of that crap is currently moving at the shops. Not here anyways. Magic, Contenders, and National Treasures are where the money is at. Leaf didn't scratch the surface. It's not competitive. For some reason, you guys get awful damn defensive about things when you don't agree with them.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't post much but I can clear some things up here. Unlike most in this thread, I actually know a thing or two about the Lanham and Copyright Acts. This is not legal advice for anyone, but could provide some clarity on some of the issues:

There are trademark issues- obviously having the Topps logo and what not on their packaging would almost certainly be infringement without a license; this could certainly cause confusion for consumers which is the legal standard. What is basically happening is they are stealing decades of Topps' goodwill by putting cards with a Topps logo on the cover of the Leaf boxes. Consumers could see the Topps logo on the box and equate that with what they know about Topps, although the product is really a Leaf product. For instance, imagine if some startup shoe company had advertising on their boxes of basketball shoes that shows people like Lebron, Kobe, and MJ playing with their Nike shoes prominently displaying their swooshes and jumpman logos. The problem with that is obvious to anyone.

As for copyright, you should think of a card as any other work of art like a painting or photograph. Topps clearly owns the CR for these as far as any of us know. So by putting these copyrighted works on the box without permission they are likely infringing the copyright. For instance, say you have a copyright to a photograph you took or a painting you created, and someone just takes your photo/art and puts it on, say, a book cover. It's pretty easy to see the problem with that, which is essentially the same thing going on here.

Wow. I don't know you, and I mean you no disrespect. I am limited as to what I can say in this thread, but I think it's fair to say that your examples are woefully lacking.

You referred to a photograph/painting and taking that photo/artwork and putting it on a book cover. Certainly, that's an actionable claim against the book publisher. However, this is a wholly different issue. This isn't Leaf taking Topps cards and decorating their box with them -- they are ACTUALLY SELLING THOSE TOPPS CARDS! Which they have EVERY right in the world to do!

You referred to utilizing pro athletes utilizing Nike shoes on a new shoe product. Certainly, that would be actionable as the shoe company does not have the rights to utilize the athletes or the shoes and the athletes are depicted solely for endorsement purposes. Again, in this situation, what is going on the front of the box/sell sheet is exactly what you have a chance to get IN the box. Those baseball cards.

Try again.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't post much but I can clear some things up here. Unlike most in this thread, I actually know a thing or two about the Lanham and Copyright Acts. This is not legal advice for anyone, but could provide some clarity on some of the issues:

There are trademark issues- obviously having the Topps logo and what not on their packaging would almost certainly be infringement without a license; this could certainly cause confusion for consumers which is the legal standard. What is basically happening is they are stealing decades of Topps' goodwill by putting cards with a Topps logo on the cover of the Leaf boxes. Consumers could see the Topps logo on the box and equate that with what they know about Topps, although the product is really a Leaf product. For instance, imagine if some startup shoe company had advertising on their boxes of basketball shoes that shows people like Lebron, Kobe, and MJ playing with their Nike shoes prominently displaying their swooshes and jumpman logos. The problem with that is obvious to anyone.

As for copyright, you should think of a card as any other work of art like a painting or photograph. Topps clearly owns the CR for these as far as any of us know. So by putting these copyrighted works on the box without permission they are likely infringing the copyright. For instance, say you have a copyright to a photograph you took or a painting you created, and someone just takes your photo/art and puts it on, say, a book cover. It's pretty easy to see the problem with that, which is essentially the same thing going on here.

This is what the box looks like, no mention of brand names etc.

Which is another problem in the lawsuit as far as I can see -- you're NOT confusing the general public, which the courts are willing to say are complete idiots. While I haven't read it, the suit either maintains that you're confusing the general public -- WHICH DOES NOT SEE THE SELL SHEETS -- or the suit is maintaining that you're confusing the dealers, who should have sufficient knowledge to know that Leaf isn't producing Topps cards.

 

[predatorkj]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

You really need to stop. You just sound bitter. Just because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean no one else does or will. Leaf is doing just fine.

 

[Card Magnet]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

Thank you for raining down your words of wisdom from your pedestal, for surely you set the bar for what "is" and "isn't" in the world of cards. If you don't buy it or have an appreciation for it, than it has to be garbage.

Who the hell ever claimed Sage or Press Pass compared to any of the high end items? They're low end sets, equivalent to something like Score. I do applaud your ability to pull bits of discussion that never existed out of your ass to argue against them.

I also want to thank you for clearing up what a serious collector is. I thought with all the time, effort, cash, and enjoyment I get from my college collection made me a serious collector. You really come off as a ******* tool.

 

[predatorkj]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

You really need to stop. You just sound bitter. Just because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean no one else does or will. Leaf is doing just fine.

Hey...you act like this is just my opinion. It's not. Sorry to dissapoint.

 

[predatorkj]

[quote="Card Magnet":2psnx5js]Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

Thank you for raining down your words of wisdom from your pedestal, for surely you set the bar for what "is" and "isn't" in the world of cards. If you don't buy it or have an appreciation for it, than it has to be garbage.

Who the hell ever claimed Sage or Press Pass compared to any of the high end items? They're low end sets, equivalent to something like Score. I do applaud your ability to pull bits of discussion that never existed out of your ass to argue against them.

I also want to thank you for clearing up what a serious collector is. I thought with all the time, effort, cash, and enjoyment I get from my college collection made me a serious collector. You really come off as a fracking tool.[/quote:2psnx5js]


Dude...you're taking my comment personally. I am a college collector too. Have you not read my sig. I collect college players from Texas Schools . My point is, and you can't deny it, the serious money is in pro stuff. Are you even remotely willing to argue that? Seriously? It's gotten this crazy on this board? The reason I brought up Sage and Press Pass(and no sir...it wasn't out of my ass) was because you want to act like they are competing against stuff like National Treasures and Chrome or Finest. Bullcrap. And if Leaf is college stuff, are they any better? Higher end maybe? Better? No. So how pray tell, in the sam hell are they any different besides being high end? Why am I tool for reporting what I have seen and heard? You act like I don't support Leaf. I do. I am just not giving them credit for being where they are not. I'm not sure how that makes me on a pedastal. I'm just like you...nobody. But I do not, nor will I , drink this koolaide. Sorry.

 

[Weimer]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

You really need to stop. You just sound bitter. Just because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean no one else does or will. Leaf is doing just fine.

Hey...you act like this is just my opinion. It's not. Sorry to dissapoint.

Yes, and plenty of people have the exact opposite opinion than you. So sorry to disappoint, but you're no more right than they are.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Leaf Metal Football was laughed right out of the hobby shop into customer's hands, into countless collections, and onto ebay, where it not only sold at respectable secondary market rates, but also held steady.

Yes, to college collectors. Right....lets just say Sage and Press pass are just as good as national treasures and topps chrome and finest. Wrong. None of the serious collectors touch the college stuff man. Don't even pretend you think they do. I'll say this was probably the best looking college type product in a long time but I'll also say cards featuring players in pro uniforms is where the big bucks are at. Ali is an oddball type of set. I'm not even considering it. Topps doesn't touch boxing currently.

I just don't see how any company without a license can make a dent in anything. They never have previously and they never will. I want to see Brian get a license. I'm behind him. I am just not drinking the koolaide you guys are. In any case, I think topps is trying to squash him before he can get a license. I for one hope he does get one and is successful. But I'm not giving him credit for being a competitor yet. Right now, he is competing against UD and Tristar as well as press pass and sage. Hell 200lb hockey player could outdo sage or press pass in his sleep. Not much competition there. UD's designs have sucked for a while now. Tristar is also a joke. When there are better alternatives(and there most certainly are) collectors will go to that. About all Leaf got was a head start(just like press pass and sage) and just like them, it sold for a while. Now with the good stuff coming, that's going to cool off. Badly.

You really need to stop. You just sound bitter. Just because YOU don't like something, doesn't mean no one else does or will. Leaf is doing just fine.

Hey...you act like this is just my opinion. It's not. Sorry to dissapoint.

Sorry to disappoint you as well, but yours isn't the opinion of everyone like you seem to think. Again, Leaf does just fine without your support. You can trash a company all you want, but it's meaningless. They will continue to make cards regardless of what you think of them.

 

[cgilmo]

The statement was that the leaf products were laughed out of stores.

This statement is seriously wrong, as stores sold the bejeezus out of both of the leaf draft releases.