Verlander Sick!!

[hail2thevictors]

He has had the luckiest season ever. Has had to face the Yankees? Oh? How did that work out for him?

He pitched against the Yankees twice this year, both times his team lost, but he managed to espcape without getting the L. And it's not like he pitched a shutout into the 8th and his team lost in the 9th, no. He let up 3 ER in each appearance and really should have picked up a couple Ls there.

He's only had to play Boston twice, and once the same thing happened. Team lost, 3 ER for JV, but no L. Lucky crap going on for this guy. Only had to play Texas once, and picked up an L. Only had to play the Angels once, and picked up another L. If he didn't get to play the White Sox so many times, his numbers would look more normal.


Sure he's having a good season, but if he had to face the tough teams, and didn't get 5 runs of support every game..... there might actually be a Cy Young race this year. :lol:

No one cares if he is 23-5, or 23-7, it doesn't matter. What matters is that he has 23 wins. Do you honestly think that he would not be an MVP candidate if he lost those 2 games to the Yanks? Give me a break.

Verlander has had a bit of a "lucky" season when you think about him winning 11 in a row-one start he gave up 4 to the Twins, 4 to the Indians(from 2 Duncan HR's), and there are other starts in that stretch that he could have lost had he not gotten the run support. So, while I love the Tigers, and can't believe what Verlander is doing-he could easily be at 17 or 18 wins right now, if things didn't align right for him in some of his starts.

However, the guy is leading all of baseball (not just the AL) in Innings, Strikeouts, WHIP, and batting avg against.

 

[Randy Shields]

He has had the luckiest season ever. Has had to face the Yankees? Oh? How did that work out for him?

He pitched against the Yankees twice this year, both times his team lost, but he managed to espcape without getting the L. And it's not like he pitched a shutout into the 8th and his team lost in the 9th, no. He let up 3 ER in each appearance and really should have picked up a couple Ls there.

He's only had to play Boston twice, and once the same thing happened. Team lost, 3 ER for JV, but no L. Lucky crap going on for this guy. Only had to play Texas once, and picked up an L. Only had to play the Angels once, and picked up another L. If he didn't get to play the White Sox so many times, his numbers would look more normal.


Sure he's having a good season, but if he had to face the tough teams, and didn't get 5 runs of support every game..... there might actually be a Cy Young race this year. :lol:

Lucky? Seriously Dude?

This sounds like Elementary school language.

Oh Bother......... ::facepalm::

 

[markakis8]

Oh Bother......... ::facepalm::

Sorry been watching too my WtP lately with the kiddos :lol:

 

[hail2thevictors]

I don't think that ERA alone like you said is all there is to this question. So lets say overall stats.

Well, Roy Halladay had a 22 win season in 2003 (pitching in the AL East) and threw a perfect game and a no hitter in the 2010 season.


But, my favorite part about your post. You start out by saying how many pitchers have had a better career than Verlander, then you start citing stats from this season to back up your argument.

It wasn't too long ago that Verlander lead the league in losses and pitched to a near 5 era.

One year doesn't make a pitcher the greatest ever. It's kind of like how Ubaldo Jiminez' half a season made him an "ace".

It wasn't too long ago that Verlander had an under 4 ERA in 5 of his 6 full seasons-but that is ok, go ahead and point out his 1 bad season that he has had in his 6 full years.

It's not like he won ROY in 2006, right? Not like he has won 17, 18, 19, 18, and 23+ in 5 of his 6 full seasons, right?

But sure bro, keep throwing out Ubaldo Jimenez comparisons-as long as you enjoy looking like a lost easter egg.

 

[vwnut13]

It wasn't too long ago that Verlander had an under 4 ERA in 5 of his 6 full seasons-but that is ok, go ahead and point out his 1 bad season that he has had in his 6 full years.

It's not like he won ROY in 2006, right? Not like he has won 17, 18, 19, 18, and 23+ in 5 of his 6 full seasons, right?

But sure bro, keep throwing out Ubaldo Jimenez comparisons-as long as you enjoy looking like a lost easter egg.

The OP said that only Lincecum compared to Verlander career wise for modern pitchers.

And by "modern" I assume he means more than "active" pitchers.

Verlander is nowhere near one of the best active pitchers. If he was pitching to his career 3.81 ERA (05-10) this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[elmalo]

He is having a great year. I imagine though, if he was on the Yankees and had to pitch against the AL East and make half of his starts in Yankee stadium, that ERA is probably a run higher and everyone would be arguing against him winning CY Young or MVP bc he is on the Yankees.

 

[Ryan The Orange]

Reading the title of this thread made me think that he had the flu or something. Glad to find out he actually is in good health.

 

[RL24]

Lucky? Seriously Dude?

This sounds like Elementary school language.

Oh Bother......... ::facepalm::

My sincerest apologies that the eloquence of the linguistic aspect of my post was not up to your standards. However, when composing my thoughts on a baseball card message board, I always feel that it's OK to express myself in an, I don't know, regular manner. It's not like I was writing my senior thesis on Justin Verlander. I was just making up some reasons why he isn't having that great of a season, and it wasn't easy.

But he has been lucky. This guy explained it... more eloquently.

Verlander has had a bit of a "lucky" season when you think about him winning 11 in a row-one start he gave up 4 to the Twins, 4 to the Indians(from 2 Duncan HR's), and there are other starts in that stretch that he could have lost had he not gotten the run support. So, while I love the Tigers, and can't believe what Verlander is doing-he could easily be at 17 or 18 wins right now, if things didn't align right for him in some of his starts.

I enjoy finding reasons to detract from a pitcher's season. This comes from years of being a CC Sabathia fan. I saw all the ways that people do it, and I said "I see what you did there. It looks fun." Honestly, Verlander is having such a good season that it's hard. But that's only because he pitches in the weakest division in baseball and plays the White Sox more than the 3 best offensive teams in the AL combined.


A quick fun fact... Did you know that Verlander's 22 HR allowed this year is tied for 10th worst in the league? Right, only 9 guys have given up more HR than he has. See what I did there? FUN! :lol:

 

[Randy Shields]

The OP said that only Lincecum compared to Verlander career wise for modern pitchers.

And by "modern" I assume he means more than "active" pitchers.

Verlander is nowhere near one of the best active pitchers. If he was pitching to his career 3.81 ERA (05-10) this thread wouldn't even exist.The fact is, that isn't true.

To state that Verlander is nowhere near one of the best active pitchers is simply laughable. And the "If" that you followed up with is nonsense given the year he is having and the really good years he's had leading up to this one. I mean isn't that what we do here, talk about the great year certain players are having?

Verlander is flat out filthy when he's on and I think this year he's even kicked it up a notch and is winning on nights that he doesn't even have his good stuff. He's currently as good or better than any other "active pitcher" in the league right now. The #'s don't lie.

You mentioned Roy Halladay's year in 2003 so I did a first 7 year comparison between the 2.

Here you go:

Halladay: Wins: 65 Losses: 35, ERA: 4.29, Strikeouts: 100, Whip: 1.332

Verlander: Wins: 106 Losses: 57, ERA: 3.54, Strikeouts: 206, Whip: 1.197

So I really don't understand the lack of respect for Verlander from a couple of you, but I'm quite confident that he's earning it from just about everyone else.

 

[markakis8]

A quick fun fact... Did you know that Verlander's 22 HR allowed this year is tied for 10th worst in the league? Right, only 9 guys have given up more HR than he has. See what I did there? FUN! :lol:

Here's a fun trivia question: Can you name a pitcher that has given up 5 HR in a game this season?

 

[Randy Shields]

Lucky? Seriously Dude?

This sounds like Elementary school language.

Oh Bother......... ::facepalm::

My sincerest apologies that the eloquence of the linguistic aspect of my post was not up to your standards. However, when composing my thoughts on a baseball card message board, I always feel that it's OK to express myself in an, I don't know, regular manner. It's not like I was writing my senior thesis on Justin Verlander. I was just making up some reasons why he isn't having that great of a season, and it wasn't easy.

But he has been lucky. This guy explained it... more eloquently.

My comments weren't directed at your eloquence on a message board, but rather the silliness of using that kind of a phrase. Yes anyone with a 23-5 record and in all likelyhood a shoo-in for the Cy Young award is simply a matter of Luck.

I used that phrase waaay back when I was young and didn't really have a legitimate arguement. Today I may use it from time to time just to be, oh I don't know, sarcastic. But being an Indians fan I can see where a bit of frustration has obviously set in.

Luckily, there's always next year.....

 

[chompsmcgee]

Not sure if people in this thread look at advanced stats but as been mentioned before he has indeed been lucky this year.

BABIP (the average is around .300)

2008 .296
2009 .319
2010 .286
2011 .237

Besides W/L, which most of us understand shouldn't be used to evaluate the quality of a pitcher, his stats are very similar to his last two years. Here's a couple quotes I stole from 2 different fangraph articles regarding Verlander:

"All things considered, he’s having a phenomenal year. But it isn’t totally clear that Verlander is having the best season among all AL pitchers. Yes, he leads his league in pitcher WAR and innings pitched, has the second highest K/BB ratio, the third highest strikeout rate and — at 2.78 — the lowest SIERA. Yet the separation in wins above replacement — between he, CC Sabathia and Jered Weaver — is minute given the error bars surrounding the metric."

"Verlander joins the top tier, though he’s doing it with improved control, which I don’t think is sustainable. Same F-Strike% as last season and just a tick better than 2009. Everything else is nearly identical to last season and no one called him a top five pitcher in baseball back then."

I think he's having a phenomenal season and he deserves to at least be in the MVP discussion, but let's be real: he's not Roy Halladay who remains the best pitcher on the planet.

 

[markakis8]

Not sure if people in this thread look at advanced stats but as been mentioned before he has indeed been lucky this year.

BABIP (the average is around .300)

2008 .296
2009 .319
2010 .286
2011 .237

Besides W/L, which most of us understand shouldn't be used to evaluate the quality of a pitcher, his stats are very similar to his last two years. Here's a couple quotes I stole from fangraphs regarding Verlander:

"All things considered, he’s having a phenomenal year. But it isn’t totally clear that Verlander is having the best season among all AL pitchers. Yes, he leads his league in pitcher WAR and innings pitched, has the second highest K/BB ratio, the third highest strikeout rate and — at 2.78 — the lowest SIERA. Yet the separation in wins above replacement — between he, CC Sabathia and Jered Weaver — is minute given the error bars surrounding the metric."

"Verlander joins the top tier, though he’s doing it with improved control, which I don’t think is sustainable. Same F-Strike% as last season and just a tick better than 2009. Everything else is nearly identical to last season and no one called him a top five pitcher in baseball back then."

I think he's having a phenomenal season and he deserves to at least be in the MVP discussion, but let's be real: he's not Roy Halladay who remains the best pitcher on the planet.

And yet, when it all comes down to it...the Tigers wouldn't be where they are without him and he has the numbers.

MVP!

 

[chompsmcgee]

Not sure if people in this thread look at advanced stats but as been mentioned before he has indeed been lucky this year.

BABIP (the average is around .300)

2008 .296
2009 .319
2010 .286
2011 .237

Besides W/L, which most of us understand shouldn't be used to evaluate the quality of a pitcher, his stats are very similar to his last two years. Here's a couple quotes I stole from fangraphs regarding Verlander:

"All things considered, he’s having a phenomenal year. But it isn’t totally clear that Verlander is having the best season among all AL pitchers. Yes, he leads his league in pitcher WAR and innings pitched, has the second highest K/BB ratio, the third highest strikeout rate and — at 2.78 — the lowest SIERA. Yet the separation in wins above replacement — between he, CC Sabathia and Jered Weaver — is minute given the error bars surrounding the metric."

"Verlander joins the top tier, though he’s doing it with improved control, which I don’t think is sustainable. Same F-Strike% as last season and just a tick better than 2009. Everything else is nearly identical to last season and no one called him a top five pitcher in baseball back then."

I think he's having a phenomenal season and he deserves to at least be in the MVP discussion, but let's be real: he's not Roy Halladay who remains the best pitcher on the planet.

And yet, when it all comes down to it...the Tigers wouldn't be where they are without him and he has the numbers.

MVP!

Well you should have been clamoring for him to win MVP in 2009 when they made the playoffs because his numbers were about the same. Or in 2010 when he again put up very similar stats with the difference being how his offense performed when he pitched. But I bet you weren't.

 

[markakis8]

Well you should have been clamoring for him to win MVP in 2009 when they made the playoffs because his numbers were about the same. Or in 2010 when he again put up very similar stats with the difference being how his offense performed when he pitched. But I bet you weren't.

Nope! B/c if 2009 and 2010 Miguel Cabrera was the MVP for the Tigers. And while Miggy is having another oustanding year this year, in 2009 and 2010, Justin Verlander didn't win when the Tigers desperately needed it the most. Justin Verlander has stopped Tigers losing streaks on multiple occasions this year on TOP of having a career year and leading the league in almost every category that is imperative to a pitcher's career when talking about greatness.

MVP!

 

[saferseas]

Can anybody compare modern pitchers to him? Maybe Lincecum? Career not just this year.

Verlander is an excellent pitcher, who is having a phenomenal year. But to imply that no other modern pitcher can even compare to him is idiotic, plain and simple.

 

[hail2thevictors]

Not sure if people in this thread look at advanced stats but as been mentioned before he has indeed been lucky this year.

BABIP (the average is around .300)

2008 .296
2009 .319
2010 .286
2011 .237

Besides W/L, which most of us understand shouldn't be used to evaluate the quality of a pitcher, his stats are very similar to his last two years. Here's a couple quotes I stole from fangraphs regarding Verlander:

"All things considered, he’s having a phenomenal year. But it isn’t totally clear that Verlander is having the best season among all AL pitchers. Yes, he leads his league in pitcher WAR and innings pitched, has the second highest K/BB ratio, the third highest strikeout rate and — at 2.78 — the lowest SIERA. Yet the separation in wins above replacement — between he, CC Sabathia and Jered Weaver — is minute given the error bars surrounding the metric."

"Verlander joins the top tier, though he’s doing it with improved control, which I don’t think is sustainable. Same F-Strike% as last season and just a tick better than 2009. Everything else is nearly identical to last season and no one called him a top five pitcher in baseball back then."

I think he's having a phenomenal season and he deserves to at least be in the MVP discussion, but let's be real: he's not Roy Halladay who remains the best pitcher on the planet.

And yet, when it all comes down to it...the Tigers wouldn't be where they are without him and he has the numbers.

MVP!

Well you should have been clamoring for him to win MVP in 2009 when they made the playoffs because his numbers were about the same. Or in 2010 when he again put up very similar stats with the difference being how his offense performed when he pitched. But I bet you weren't.

So he led baseball in IP, WHIP, K, and avg against in 2009 and 2010? Umm, not even close. His numbers were nowhere near the same as this year. Again, he is leading all of baseball in those categories.

Will he continue this in future years? Only time will tell. I can say this-as a fan, he took a huge step in August/September of 2010. He started actually going 7, 8, 9 innings just about every time out. He has continued that this season, which has made him a true ace in my opinion. In 2006 until July 2010 he simply wasn't going deep into games on a consistent basis.

And notice I don't mention wins, as he obviously leads baseball in wins. I am not a win/loss guy for SP's, because they don't control the run support they get. Like Felix last year showed, the best pitcher doesn't always have 18+ wins.

 

[jofinn36]

Ok so I don't keep up with every pitcher but I also did notice with his age hes the only one with over 100 wins. Including Weaver. Just to say compare I should have said best. Hes just now in his prime. We will see. Yes this year he is the best pitcher. You can argue all you want but. Best this year. Best wins for his age. Is that better now. 2 no hitters at his age is amazing. ERA is just about comparable. Over 1000 KO at his age. Is he the best ever no way nor will he ever be. Good pitchers were throwing 30 wins a year quite often years ago.

 

[Hollywood]

Only player in major league history to win ROY, throw a no hitter, pitch in a WS and AS game in first two seasons. Can't compare any pitcher from the NL to the AL, i just don't like doing it. They get to face and strikeout a pitcher too many times a season. So if you're going to compare to a pitcher make it an AL one. Verlander's first start of the season was a cold opening day game at Yankee stadium, and the only real damage done was a Teix 3 run homer. I also remember watching him outduel Weaver when they were pretty close in numbers at the time. Weaver went on a tirade and got tossed that game. Ver would be disgusting in the NL his interleague numbers are pretty sick. His low whip and baa aren't a fluke. In other seasons he just always has a terrible first month that skew the numbers. Otherwise the rest of the season after the first month, the numbers are very similar to what he's doing now. He has def had luck this year, in terms of run support and great bullpen. Otherwise he would probably only win 20 games, but hey he's had some bad luck in years past. Alex Avila is also the key to the Tigers and Ver's success and he doesn't get near enough credit. Just like before, Verlander was it his best when he had Pudge and was comfortable with him. His career numbers are a lot higher when neither of those two are catching.

 

[nborton]

Only player in major league history to win ROY, throw a no hitter, pitch in a WS and AS game in first two seasons. Can't compare any pitcher from the NL to the AL, i just don't like doing it. They get to face and strikeout a pitcher too many times a season. So if you're going to compare to a pitcher make it an AL one. Verlander's first start of the season was a cold opening day game at Yankee stadium, and the only real damage done was a Teix 3 run homer. I also remember watching him outduel Weaver when they were pretty close in numbers at the time. Weaver went on a tirade and got tossed that game. Ver would be disgusting in the NL his interleague numbers are pretty sick. His low whip and baa aren't a fluke. In other seasons he just always has a terrible first month that skew the numbers. Otherwise the rest of the season after the first month, the numbers are very similar to what he's doing now. He has def had luck this year, in terms of run support and great bullpen. Otherwise he would probably only win 20 games, but hey he's had some bad luck in years past. Alex Avila is also the key to the Tigers and Ver's success and he doesn't get near enough credit. Just like before, Verlander was it his best when he had Pudge and was comfortable with him. His career numbers are a lot higher when neither of those two are catching.

That's the key. Every year in his career before this season he would get off to a terrible start, only to finish crazy hot. There is something different about him this year though. I think this is the breakthrough year where he figured it all out. Every pitcher who becomes a great pitcher has that moment when it clicks, and they understand pitching as more than just throwing.

In all of history if you go back and look very few pitchers do well at first. It takes until around 6-8 years before they get their first CY.

Pedro - 6th year
Maddux - 7th year
Randy Johnson - 8th year
Halladay - 6th year
Sabathia - 7th year

Verlander is just falling in line with history, and how great pitchers form.