Which Current Hall Of Famer Is Most Undeserving?

[George_Calfas]

[quote="Jays_Cards":27mhxz1q]Ozzie Smith

+1

He is the sole reason I will never visit Cooperstown! It is a farce that he got over 90% of the vote first ballot! If you had a draft of all of the players in the 80's, this guy would not go in the 1st round. Alot of non hofer's like Jack Morris, Bret Saberhagen, Doc Gooden, Daryl Strawberry and many others would be drafted higher!

This is just wrong on many levels. I bet if you asked any pitcher from that era who they would chose, a majority of the m would say Ozzie. I know a guy who pitched for St Louis in the early 80's and he told me there was no one like Ozzie. His defense won games.

That is not the point! Any GM that would take Ozzie in the first round would be out on his ass! Any GM would draft the non HOFers I mentioned over Ozzie.

Any GM would take 2 Flash in the pan players with off field problems, or a couple of good starting pitchers one with injury problems over a 16 year hall of famer who was te greatest player at the most difficult position in the game?

He was not even close to the greatest at his position! If he played in the AL, he may have made 2 or 3 All Star games. Ripken, Trammell, Fernandez, Yount were all better players. Templeton and Larkin were better for that matter, Ozzie did back flips, fans are stupid. That explains his popularity.[/quote:27mhxz1q]

What planet do you live on? His popularity is based on back-flips.

 

[elmalo]

[quote="Jays_Cards":3v3gll41]Ozzie Smith

+1

He is the sole reason I will never visit Cooperstown! It is a farce that he got over 90% of the vote first ballot! If you had a draft of all of the players in the 80's, this guy would not go in the 1st round. Alot of non hofer's like Jack Morris, Bret Saberhagen, Doc Gooden, Daryl Strawberry and many others would be drafted higher!

This is just wrong on many levels. I bet if you asked any pitcher from that era who they would chose, a majority of the m would say Ozzie. I know a guy who pitched for St Louis in the early 80's and he told me there was no one like Ozzie. His defense won games.

That is not the point! Any GM that would take Ozzie in the first round would be out on his ass! Any GM would draft the non HOFers I mentioned over Ozzie.

Any GM would take 2 Flash in the pan players with off field problems, or a couple of good starting pitchers one with injury problems over a 16 year hall of famer who was te greatest player at the most difficult position in the game?

He was not even close to the greatest at his position! If he played in the AL, he may have made 2 or 3 All Star games. Ripken, Trammell, Fernandez, Yount were all better players. Templeton and Larkin were better for that matter, Ozzie did back flips, fans are stupid. That explains his popularity.[/quote:3v3gll41]
Defensively yes he was. Which is why he is in the hall of fame. Fernandez was close, Larkin was a great SS as well. Ripken and Trammell not even close.

 

[elmalo]

[quote="Jays_Cards":2hhwlczr]Ozzie Smith

+1

He is the sole reason I will never visit Cooperstown! It is a farce that he got over 90% of the vote first ballot! If you had a draft of all of the players in the 80's, this guy would not go in the 1st round. Alot of non hofer's like Jack Morris, Bret Saberhagen, Doc Gooden, Daryl Strawberry and many others would be drafted higher!

This is just wrong on many levels. I bet if you asked any pitcher from that era who they would chose, a majority of the m would say Ozzie. I know a guy who pitched for St Louis in the early 80's and he told me there was no one like Ozzie. His defense won games.

That is not the point! Any GM that would take Ozzie in the first round would be out on his ass! Any GM would draft the non HOFers I mentioned over Ozzie.

Any GM would take 2 Flash in the pan players with off field problems, or a couple of good starting pitchers one with injury problems over a 16 year hall of famer who was te greatest player at the most difficult position in the game?

the most difficult position in the game?

uhhhh NO catcher![/quote:2hhwlczr]
uh no, Shortstop.

 

[nosterbor]

how bad of a hitter was The OZ?
Outs Made s c a p y
...
Career 7528 (25th)
his .328 slug % lifetime i could not find where that ranks all time. it only goes to 999th and that is .3913. like i said he was an EASY out! how many games did he cost his team with his atrocious hitting?

What's interesting is seeing guys on that career list:
Rank Player Outs Made
1. Pete Rose 10328
2. Hank Aaron+ 9136
3. Carl Yastrzemski+ 9126
4. Cal Ripken+ 8893
5. Eddie Murray+ 8569
6. Rickey Henderson+ 8510
7. Dave Winfield+ 8422
8. Robin Yount+ 8415
9. Brooks Robinson+ 8340
10. Craig Biggio 8272
11. Omar Vizquel 8171
12. Luis Aparicio+ 8110
13. Willie Mays+ 8056
14. Paul Molitor+ 8040
15. Rabbit Maranville+ 7906
16. Rafael Palmeiro 7858
17. Lou Brock+ 7823
18. Ty Cobb+ 7748
19. Stan Musial+ 7704
20. George Brett+ 7673
21. Reggie Jackson+ 7659
22. Andre Dawson+ 7621
23. Al Kaline+ 7594
24. Frank Robinson+ 7529
25. Ozzie Smith+ 7528
26. Rusty Staub 7509
27. Harold Baines 7482
28. Tony Perez+ 7462
29. Ken Griffey 7398

Some pretty good guys on this list even if people think the stat is negative.

yes it is a very good list. if he had have the stats of 95% of those players i would say ok. he does not he was an easy OUT!

 

[nosterbor]

[quote="bodiaz":2fdyemfu][quote="Jays_Cards":2fdyemfu]Ozzie Smith

+1

He is the sole reason I will never visit Cooperstown! It is a farce that he got over 90% of the vote first ballot! If you had a draft of all of the players in the 80's, this guy would not go in the 1st round. Alot of non hofer's like Jack Morris, Bret Saberhagen, Doc Gooden, Daryl Strawberry and many others would be drafted higher!

This is just wrong on many levels. I bet if you asked any pitcher from that era who they would chose, a majority of the m would say Ozzie. I know a guy who pitched for St Louis in the early 80's and he told me there was no one like Ozzie. His defense won games.

That is not the point! Any GM that would take Ozzie in the first round would be out on his ass! Any GM would draft the non HOFers I mentioned over Ozzie.

Any GM would take 2 Flash in the pan players with off field problems, or a couple of good starting pitchers one with injury problems over a 16 year hall of famer who was te greatest player at the most difficult position in the game?

the most difficult position in the game?

uhhhh NO catcher![/quote:2fdyemfu]
uh no, Shortstop.[/quote:2fdyemfu]

 

[George_Calfas]

Greatest Shortstops from Baseball-statistics.com

"The Wizard of Oz" led National League shortstops in fielding percentage 9 times, assists 8 times, double plays 5 times, and range factor (total plays per nine innings) 8 times. No other shortstop has ever dominated the defensive statistics like Ozzie did. His defense was so good that he probably lowered the ERA of his pitchers by a quarter of a run."

http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Greats/shortstop.htm

 

[nosterbor]

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/hor ... esto_1.htm[/url]

 

[elmalo]

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/hor ... esto_1.htm[/url][/quote:3f2l4u3c]
I know all about the history of testosterone an steroids. I dont see your point. I dont think guys were taking it in the 20's. I do think that they were taking it in baseball in the late 60's through until today. Juicing the game is a good read. It is all about that.

 

[elmalo]

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/hor ... esto_1.htm[/url][/quote:2r7dx68h]
I know all about the history of testosterone an steroids. I dont see your point. I dont think guys were taking it in the 20's. I do think that they were taking it in baseball in the late 60's through until today. Juicing the game is a good read. It is all about that.

 

[maxpower]

Ozzie Smith isn't just there for his defensive play, but also how he brought fans into the game and touched it with his personality more than the average player. He's very deserving for the mark he left on baseball, if not taking his defensive ability into account.

Yeah people like to spend time looking at certain stats but forget there are a lot of HOF criteria...
Voting is based on the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship and character. Contributions to the teams he played on is also considered.

Just ask Albert Belle.

Exactly. Hence my contention that Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are undeserving.

This one if the dumbest posts ive seen on these boards ever. Ty Cobb is arguably the greatest player ever to play the game and you say he doesnt deserve it because he was a jerk. Have you ever read anything about pre war baseball? There are several guys in the hall that were known to associate with mobsters and gamblers there are also guys that had huge drinking and drug problems. Look at Babe Ruth he was a drunk and cheated on his wife any chance he got as well as loved to gamble. So saying Cobb doesnt belong in because of his off the field behavior would take several dozen guys out of the hall as well.

Of course it's ridiculous that a player of Cobb's ability wouldn't be in the HOF. But nevertheless, there is a Character Clause in the HOF selection criteria (as cited by the poster above).

I personally believe that the Character Clause should be abolished and that any sportswriter voting based on character should have his vote revoked. It's basically an exuse to make arbitrary choices based on popularity. But as long as the Character Clause is in effect, people can (legitimately) make silly arguments.

 

[scotty21690]

Ozzie Smith isn't just there for his defensive play, but also how he brought fans into the game and touched it with his personality more than the average player. He's very deserving for the mark he left on baseball, if not taking his defensive ability into account.

Yeah people like to spend time looking at certain stats but forget there are a lot of HOF criteria...
Voting is based on the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship and character. Contributions to the teams he played on is also considered.

Just ask Albert Belle.

Exactly. Hence my contention that Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are undeserving.

This one if the dumbest posts ive seen on these boards ever. Ty Cobb is arguably the greatest player ever to play the game and you say he doesnt deserve it because he was a jerk. Have you ever read anything about pre war baseball? There are several guys in the hall that were known to associate with mobsters and gamblers there are also guys that had huge drinking and drug problems. Look at Babe Ruth he was a drunk and cheated on his wife any chance he got as well as loved to gamble. So saying Cobb doesnt belong in because of his off the field behavior would take several dozen guys out of the hall as well.

Of course it's ridiculous that a player of Cobb's ability wouldn't be in the HOF. But nevertheless, there is a Character Clause in the HOF selection criteria (as cited by the poster above).

I personally believe that the Character Clause should be abolished and that any sportswriter voting based on character should have his vote revoked. It's basically an exuse to make arbitrary choices based on popularity. But as long as the Character Clause is in effect, people can (legitimately) make silly arguments.

A lot different times back then...and I don't think they would ever not put the greatest hitter of all time in the HOF, reguardless of character.

 

[ThoseBackPages]

anyone voted in after 1980 that didnt get in on their first try.

if someone wasnt good enough to get in 6 years after their last season, WHAT MADE THEM BETTER after 7 years? 8 years? etc.

Remember people, the HOF is BIG BUSINESS

thats why Gossage, Jim Rice and Andre Dawson got in. SOMEONE HAS to go in EVERY YEAR going forward, to make more money.

 

[maxpower]

[quote="Card Magnet":30y8hcq0]Ozzie Smith isn't just there for his defensive play, but also how he brought fans into the game and touched it with his personality more than the average player. He's very deserving for the mark he left on baseball, if not taking his defensive ability into account.

Yeah people like to spend time looking at certain stats but forget there are a lot of HOF criteria...
Voting is based on the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship and character. Contributions to the teams he played on is also considered.

Just ask Albert Belle.

Exactly. Hence my contention that Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are undeserving.

This one if the dumbest posts ive seen on these boards ever. Ty Cobb is arguably the greatest player ever to play the game and you say he doesnt deserve it because he was a jerk. Have you ever read anything about pre war baseball? There are several guys in the hall that were known to associate with mobsters and gamblers there are also guys that had huge drinking and drug problems. Look at Babe Ruth he was a drunk and cheated on his wife any chance he got as well as loved to gamble. So saying Cobb doesnt belong in because of his off the field behavior would take several dozen guys out of the hall as well.

Of course it's ridiculous that a player of Cobb's ability wouldn't be in the HOF. But nevertheless, there is a Character Clause in the HOF selection criteria (as cited by the poster above).

I personally believe that the Character Clause should be abolished and that any sportswriter voting based on character should have his vote revoked. It's basically an exuse to make arbitrary choices based on popularity. But as long as the Character Clause is in effect, people can (legitimately) make silly arguments.

A lot different times back then...and I don't think they would ever not put the greatest hitter of all time in the HOF, reguardless of character.[/quote:30y8hcq0]

Cobb was the product of a different time, but don't for a second think that his behavior was typical or excusable.

It's been reported that he beat a black groundskeeper, then choked the man's wife when she tried to intervene. He slapped a black elevator operator for "being uppity", then stabbed a black night watchman when he tried to intervene. He put a vicious beating on a man with no hands. These are behaviors that go beyond basic human decency in any era of baseball.

Don't get me wrong. I think Cobb should be in the HOF because he was one of the greatest players. But if you defend Cobb's inclusion, you're essentially saying that character should never be a consideration.

 

[elmalo]

[quote="Card Magnet":ihibfmag]Ozzie Smith isn't just there for his defensive play, but also how he brought fans into the game and touched it with his personality more than the average player. He's very deserving for the mark he left on baseball, if not taking his defensive ability into account.

Yeah people like to spend time looking at certain stats but forget there are a lot of HOF criteria...
Voting is based on the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship and character. Contributions to the teams he played on is also considered.

Just ask Albert Belle.

Exactly. Hence my contention that Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are undeserving.

This one if the dumbest posts ive seen on these boards ever. Ty Cobb is arguably the greatest player ever to play the game and you say he doesnt deserve it because he was a jerk. Have you ever read anything about pre war baseball? There are several guys in the hall that were known to associate with mobsters and gamblers there are also guys that had huge drinking and drug problems. Look at Babe Ruth he was a drunk and cheated on his wife any chance he got as well as loved to gamble. So saying Cobb doesnt belong in because of his off the field behavior would take several dozen guys out of the hall as well.

Of course it's ridiculous that a player of Cobb's ability wouldn't be in the HOF. But nevertheless, there is a Character Clause in the HOF selection criteria (as cited by the poster above).

I personally believe that the Character Clause should be abolished and that any sportswriter voting based on character should have his vote revoked. It's basically an exuse to make arbitrary choices based on popularity. But as long as the Character Clause is in effect, people can (legitimately) make silly arguments.

A lot different times back then...and I don't think they would ever not put the greatest hitter of all time in the HOF, reguardless of character.[/quote:ihibfmag]
So what happens with Bonds? I think he should get in.

 

[scotty21690]

So what happens with Bonds? I think he should get in.

Not a character issue, that's for a whole 'nother day....

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Cobb was the product of a different time, but don't for a second think that his behavior was typical or excusable.

It's been reported that he beat a black groundskeeper, then choked the man's wife when she tried to intervene. He slapped a black elevator operator for "being uppity", then stabbed a black night watchman when he tried to intervene. He put a vicious beating on a man with no hands. These are behaviors that go beyond basic human decency in any era of baseball.

Don't get me wrong. I think Cobb should be in the HOF because he was one of the greatest players. But if you defend Cobb's inclusion, you're essentially saying that character should never be a consideration.

The alleged behaviors you describe sound pretty typical for most modern-day athletes unfortunately, we hear about them every week.

Off-field transgressions would need to rise to a much higher level in order to keep someone out of the hall.

 

[elmalo]

[quote="uniquebaseballcards":24uo14bu][quote="Card Magnet":24uo14bu]Ozzie Smith isn't just there for his defensive play, but also how he brought fans into the game and touched it with his personality more than the average player. He's very deserving for the mark he left on baseball, if not taking his defensive ability into account.

Yeah people like to spend time looking at certain stats but forget there are a lot of HOF criteria...
Voting is based on the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship and character. Contributions to the teams he played on is also considered.

Just ask Albert Belle.

Exactly. Hence my contention that Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are undeserving.

This one if the dumbest posts ive seen on these boards ever. Ty Cobb is arguably the greatest player ever to play the game and you say he doesnt deserve it because he was a jerk. Have you ever read anything about pre war baseball? There are several guys in the hall that were known to associate with mobsters and gamblers there are also guys that had huge drinking and drug problems. Look at Babe Ruth he was a drunk and cheated on his wife any chance he got as well as loved to gamble. So saying Cobb doesnt belong in because of his off the field behavior would take several dozen guys out of the hall as well.

Of course it's ridiculous that a player of Cobb's ability wouldn't be in the HOF. But nevertheless, there is a Character Clause in the HOF selection criteria (as cited by the poster above).

I personally believe that the Character Clause should be abolished and that any sportswriter voting based on character should have his vote revoked. It's basically an exuse to make arbitrary choices based on popularity. But as long as the Character Clause is in effect, people can (legitimately) make silly arguments.

A lot different times back then...and I don't think they would ever not put the greatest hitter of all time in the HOF, reguardless of character.[/quote:24uo14bu]

Cobb was the product of a different time, but don't for a second think that his behavior was typical or excusable.

It's been reported that he beat a black groundskeeper, then choked the man's wife when she tried to intervene. He slapped a black elevator operator for "being uppity", then stabbed a black night watchman when he tried to intervene. He put a vicious beating on a man with no hands. These are behaviors that go beyond basic human decency in any era of baseball.

Don't get me wrong. I think Cobb should be in the HOF because he was one of the greatest players. But if you defend Cobb's inclusion, you're essentially saying that character should never be a consideration.[/quote:24uo14bu]
They also had a black clubhouse attendant in Detroit, I cant remember his name, but they thought he was good luck. Cobb supported him for the rest of his life. They talk about it in the book Crazy 08 which is an amazing book for anyone interested in the dead ball era. It also made it seem like Honus Wagner was a lot more respected of a ballplayer than Cobb.

 

[elmalo]

So what happens with Bonds? I think he should get in.

Not a character issue, that's for a whole 'nother day....

Well, MLB never caught him doing anything wrong.

 

[Wes]

[quote="George_Calfas":es7hfasm][quote="Jays_Cards":es7hfasm]Ozzie Smith

Why?

He was an atrocious offensive player. There is no doubt that he was an exceptional defender, but with his offensive accumen he would not be a ML player today never mind a HOFer.[/quote:es7hfasm]
He wasnt atrocious offensively. He wasnt great offensively, but he wasnt atrocious. To say he wouldnt even play today is a joke. He is the greatest ss to ever play and you are saying he wouldnt even play today. It's too bad he wasnt roided out like Tulowitzky but the guy was amazing.[/quote:es7hfasm]

Ozzie isn't in the top five of shortstops I'm taking if I want to win a game. His defense was great but I'll take Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Hanley Ramirez and even the aforementioned Tulowitzki in their primes over Ozzie. And that's just guys in the last 20 years.

I had the opportunity to hang out with Lee Smith several years back. I asked him "Whom was the better SS Ozzie or Cal", since he played with both. His answer, Cal if they needed runs and Ozzie if he were on the mound. He also commented that he had never seen a better defensive SS than Ozzie.

Clearly though praise from peers in the league and the 90%+ first time voters got it wrong and they should hand their votes over to message boards.

EXACTLY. I like you guys just fine, but when it comes down to it I'm listening to the guys who played the game.

Thanks George.

The Hall of Fame is voted on by writers not players.

 

[morgoth]

Cobb was most likely Bi-Polar and had severe emotional issues due to his mom murdering his dad when he was young.

His actions at the time were viewed as extreme and only the good old boys network saved him from long jail sentences.

I think stabbing a night watchmen is far beyond normal behavoir, same as attacking a handicapped man (whom I believe was heckling him) and no matter what their status us if it happened today those athletes would be given the Rae Caruth treatment.

The acts of good will he did for older players and their wifes is nice but the man died a surely old bastard that never apologized for anything he ever did. He wasn't respected because he played the game dirty and tried to hurt people on purpose.