RiceLynnEvans75
Active member
Exactly.
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Who Deserves the 2012 NL MVP by Numbers Alone?
- Thread starter LazerShow15
- Start date
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Exactly.
matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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If Braun was batting .272 with 19 homers and 12 stolen bases, everyone would be pointing and saying "look, see? proof that he can't do it without juice. His performance last year was obviously enhanced"
And some Brewer fans might even say - "Well, Prince Fielder being gone took away his "protection" so of course his numbers would be down"
However, no one can say either of those things.
I fully understand the public perception, roids allegations are impossible to shake. The exoneration is on his side, but more importantly, the numbers are too. I think it lends a LITTLE credence to the Possibility of his innocence in the first place. If he doesn't get MVP again, it's not because Posey was all around better, it's because haters gonna hate. My official comment on Brauns season either way is: "neener neener neener"
And some Brewer fans might even say - "Well, Prince Fielder being gone took away his "protection" so of course his numbers would be down"
However, no one can say either of those things.
I fully understand the public perception, roids allegations are impossible to shake. The exoneration is on his side, but more importantly, the numbers are too. I think it lends a LITTLE credence to the Possibility of his innocence in the first place. If he doesn't get MVP again, it's not because Posey was all around better, it's because haters gonna hate. My official comment on Brauns season either way is: "neener neener neener"
hive17
Active member
- Aug 7, 2008
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Well, since you are splitting hairs, you should at least get the facts right. MLB did not drop the charges; MLB lost in what they previously decided was a legally acceptable arbirtation process. Since Braun's side won, he was exonerated. He'll always be known as the man who was guilty until proven otherwise, but remained guilty regardless. Exonerated is the only acceptable term (by your definition); innocent is an argument for a different thread.
Bottom line, he's the best player in the NL this year, is as clean as anyone else can be said to be clean, and WON'T win the MVP (I bet the recently-ethical writers won't even get him to 3rd place, as some will leave him off their ballots entirely).
RiceLynnEvans75
Active member
Pete Rose had nothing to do with anything in MLB this season, last season, or the seasons before that. What's your point?
Braun was hit with the test in 2011. This is now 2012. The MVP award would be for 2012. Understand?
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hive17
Active member
- Aug 7, 2008
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As my buddy at work said, in reference to Braun's numbers THIS season: if anything, testosterone caused Braun to hit FEWER homeruns...
nosterbor
Well-known member
I will do one better! What has Aramis Ramirez done the last 2 weeks? 6 game winning hits! 3 of the last 4 games. I stated before the season started that he would win the MVP! If he keeps it up {i think he will } how can you argue against him being MVP. Lets go one further, put him in front of Braun and what kind of numbers would he have? Maybe not the HR's but everything else would be Monster! He is only 10 RBI in back of Braun an 10 points in AVG. He does have almost 50 doubles. I do hope The Brew Crew makes the playoffs.
ON a side note, I am glad the Cubs did not resign him. He is better off where he is on a much better team. If he gets 5 more game winning hits in the next 11 games,he should be MVP hands down.
ON a side note, I am glad the Cubs did not resign him. He is better off where he is on a much better team. If he gets 5 more game winning hits in the next 11 games,he should be MVP hands down.
matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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Only thing is that the hairs you split make no difference. Bottom line, as you say, is that Braun is going to be viewed as a PED user that got away by public perception, and that includes voters. I think it is silly for anyone to dodge, dip, or all out avoid that point. His numbers this year with regard to my previous point are moot.
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matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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The point that eludes you is that sometimes people do things, or are suspect of doing things, that carry along for years to come. His numbers are all but meaningless this year as public perception, including voters, will view him as someone who got away with it and some will vote accordingly, understand?
RiceLynnEvans75
Active member
I understand that people are dumb, yes. How his numbers RIGHT NOW are meaningless because of something that happened LAST YEAR makes absolutely zero sense. If you can explain how his numbers right now, in 2012, are meaningless because of something in the past, 2011, I'd love to hear about it. And no, public perception does not equate to something being right/correct.
I just hope those people as well are willing to continue to be held accountable and judged against today for things they did wrong in the past but have no impact right now. I doubt it though.
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markakis8
Active member
- Oct 31, 2008
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Braun has a much better shot at winning the MVP than Aramis. I can think of 15 guys I would put ahead of Aramis.
- Thread starter
- #112
LazerShow15
New member
Those against Braun being the 2012 MVP are just plain having sour grapes and know they were wrong. Most of you Braun h8ers thought his stats would suffer, but wow were you wrong, you just cannot admit it. Braun's numbers this year are incredible just for the fact Aramis wasn't doing anything the first 2 months of the year, Rickie Weeks having a horrible year in front of him, dealing with the media, off season, tested twice per week, etc. Just admit his numbers alone which is what the thread is about, he should be 2012 NL MVP.
matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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You have already answered your question albiet you try and negate its validity.
Right or wrong, the voters are going to speak with their votes, or shall we say stay quiet...
matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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Just so we are clear, I have no vested stake and would not bat a eye in contention if he won. I just understand how public perception works and feel thoes who try to deny it, negate its validity, or chose to ignore it are ignorant. Braun will not win the MVP award period, his numbers are a moot point because I gaurentee that some (even if it is a small percentage) of the voters will punish him because of public perception that he 'got away' with it. And lets be honest here, his numbers are not so great that he can sustain a few biased voters to go against him. Right or wrong, this is how it will play out...
RiceLynnEvans75
Active member
I didn't try to negate it's validity. It's just not valid. The MVP award is for the player who is judged the most valuable in a given year. How what happened in 2011 justifies negative consequences against him in 2012 is beyond me.
Can you explain how/why what happened in 2011 should justify negative marks against his 2012 chances? Personally, if voters are going to do that (and they will), they should lose their voting rights because they're obviously not voting on what they should be voting on.
scotty216brs
Active member
As much as I hate the Giants, Posey's 171 OPS+ is tough to overlook.
markakis8
Active member
- Oct 31, 2008
- 12,081
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Agreed (on both hating Giants and hard to overlook Posey). I'm wondering if Molina will take votes away from Posey though. Both are having MVP type years.
matfanofold
Active member
- Aug 10, 2008
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I guess we will both just have to conceed that it is beyond you, if you can honestly say you simply can not see how what happened last year is going to hurt his chances to win a MVP this year.
matfanofold,
I don't quite understand your motivations in this whole debate. My interpretation thus far, is simply that you want to argue.
Rice said he knows the voters are going to be against him. I gathered that conclusion by what you just quoted as being beyond him. He said "if voters are going to do that (and they will),...)"
I think he understands what you're saying, don't you? He's just saying that he doesn't think they should, that the foundation they're basing their votes on is wrong in his opinion. His point is
valid. You said yourself, "right or wrong, the voters are going to speak..." That's pretty much the same thing, except he didn't include "right or wrong". He chose a side of the fence to be on.
To be clear,
He thinks the voters will hold it against him, and it's wrong to do so.
Your point is:
You think the voters will hold it against him, and not sure if it's wrong or right, but either way is acceptable.
Correct?
I don't quite understand your motivations in this whole debate. My interpretation thus far, is simply that you want to argue.
Rice said he knows the voters are going to be against him. I gathered that conclusion by what you just quoted as being beyond him. He said "if voters are going to do that (and they will),...)"
I think he understands what you're saying, don't you? He's just saying that he doesn't think they should, that the foundation they're basing their votes on is wrong in his opinion. His point is
valid. You said yourself, "right or wrong, the voters are going to speak..." That's pretty much the same thing, except he didn't include "right or wrong". He chose a side of the fence to be on.
To be clear,
He thinks the voters will hold it against him, and it's wrong to do so.
Your point is:
You think the voters will hold it against him, and not sure if it's wrong or right, but either way is acceptable.
Correct?
