Who was the greatest Post-War pitcher?

[scotty21690]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Facepalm for those who think that Nolan Ryan was the greatest post-war pitcher. Let's compare him to pitching great Randy Johnson, because he is closest to Ryan in K's.

WL%
Johnson: .646%
Ryan .526%

ERA+
Johnson: 136
Ryan: 112

K/BB
Johnson: 3.26
Ryan: 2.04

WHIP
Johnson: 1.171
Ryan: 1.247

K/9
Johnson: 10.6
Ryan: 9.5
(^That shows that Ryan only had more K's because he pitched so many more innings)


Now tell me...how is Nolan Ryan the greatest post war pitcher?

 

[gvsu96]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Man with all the other threads, I would have figured someone would have asked "greatest on what basis"?
You guys just don't learn

Anyway, IMHO, they are all the greatest.

Clemens= greatest* statistically
Gibson=greatest statistically
Seaver=greatest consistently and longevity
Maddux=greatest groundout pitcher
Randy Johnson=greatest strikeouts/9IP
Koufax=well, uh, he was gay and Jewish

Sure we can throw a few more greatest in there while we are at it
Nolan=best at fooling many he was greatest due to his long mediocre career
Pedro=best at throwing managers to the ground (seriously, who picked him..he is up there for pWAR and so/9ip, but he doesn't really own any stats, so not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here)?

Point being, "greatest" is a subjective and relative word, which can be defined by whatever meaning one chooses.
Beyond that, I personally would say that the most correct answer based on WAR, pWAR, Winshares, or most any other meaningful statistic you could throw at them would be:

Clemens* or if you don't like asteriks Bob Gibson...both beat Koufax in every category, even if you look at just their best 5 years.

What does that have do with him being a great pitcher?

 

[scotty21690]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Pedro=best at throwing managers to the ground (seriously, who picked him..he is up there for pWAR and so/9ip, but he doesn't really own any stats, so not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here)?

Okay, I will start out by saying that Pedro is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen personally. I would probably pick Gibson for the poll though.

Taking WAR out of the equation it could easily have to do with the fact that out of all of the post war starting pitchers he is:

#1 in ERA+
#1 in WHIP
#3 in K/9 (behind Wood/Johnson)
#2 in K/BB (behind Schilling)
#2 in WL% (behind Ford)

That to me, shows how dominant of a pitcher he really was. You would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Pedro=best at throwing managers to the ground (seriously, who picked him..he is up there for pWAR and so/9ip, but he doesn't really own any stats, so not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here)?

Okay, I will start out by saying that Pedro is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen personally. I would probably pick Gibson for the poll though.

Taking WAR out of the equation it could easily have to do with the fact that out of all of the post war starting pitchers he is:

#1 in ERA+
#1 in WHIP
#3 in K/9 (behind Wood/Johnson)
#2 in K/BB (behind Schilling)
#2 in WL% (behind Ford)

That to me, shows how dominant of a pitcher he really was. You would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

He is only #1 in ERA+ and WHIP.
Those are averages, right? His career is not over. If he cotninues to put up declining numbers, those averages will go down. If you want to know who was really better, you should look at a player's best years. I do agree, Pedro is up near the top, because I already ran his numbers because I felt he would be higher, but Clemens and Gibson were both better. Almost all the others, you could flip flop their ranking depending on what criteria you wanted to use, but it is clear that both clemens and gibson were top 2 postwar.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Facepalm for those who think that Nolan Ryan was the greatest post-war pitcher. Let's compare him to pitching great Randy Johnson, because he is closest to Ryan in K's.


WL%
Johnson: .646%
Ryan .526%

ERA+
Johnson: 136
Ryan: 112

K/BB
Johnson: 3.26
Ryan: 2.04

WHIP
Johnson: 1.171
Ryan: 1.247

K/9
Johnson: 10.6
Ryan: 9.5
(^That shows that Ryan only had more K's because he pitched so many more innings)


Now tell me...how is Nolan Ryan the greatest post war pitcher?

I agree. Nolan isn't close to the top. I think if you did an equal comparison between maddux and johnson, I think you would find Johnson on top too...yet most everyone and their mother suggest maddux>johnson.

But again, "greatest' or "best" are relative and subjective words.
Anyone can suggest that Nolan was best, based on their own criteria...e.g. Nolan Ryan was best because he had the stamina to pitch so many years more than any other, that he owns the strikeout record, and they would be right...that Ryan was the greatest based on their own criteria. They may not find a lot of support, but it's true none-the-less.

I may not get much support, but I would say that a CARL's terriyaki burger add jalapenos bests either whitecastle, in-n-out, or tommys burgers.

EVERYONE HAS THE OWN FLAVOR WHEN IT COMES TO BEST OR GREATEST

 

[scotty21690]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Pedro=best at throwing managers to the ground (seriously, who picked him..he is up there for pWAR and so/9ip, but he doesn't really own any stats, so not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here)?

Okay, I will start out by saying that Pedro is the greatest pitcher I have ever seen personally. I would probably pick Gibson for the poll though.

Taking WAR out of the equation it could easily have to do with the fact that out of all of the post war starting pitchers he is:

#1 in ERA+
#1 in WHIP
#3 in K/9 (behind Wood/Johnson)
#2 in K/BB (behind Schilling)
#2 in WL% (behind Ford)

That to me, shows how dominant of a pitcher he really was. You would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

He is only #1 in ERA+ and WHIP.
Those are averages, right? His career is not over. If he cotninues to put up declining numbers, those averages will go down. If you want to know who was really better, you should look at a player's best years. I do agree, Pedro is up near the top, because I already ran his numbers because I felt he would be higher, but Clemens and Gibson were both better. Almost all the others, you could flip flop their ranking depending on what criteria you wanted to use, but it is clear that both clemens and gibson were top 2 postwar.

Just to show how dominant Pedro actually was....here is his 7 consecutive year stretch as compared to Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens.

 

[ripken2131_8]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Nolan Ryan by a mile. Who can compare to 7 no hitters?!?!

 

[beefycheddar]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

No one that I have watched in my lifetime has been more dominant than Pedro of 1999 or 2000. Clemens was my favorite player as a kid, and you can't even compare him to Pedro other than he played longer.

 

[bodiaz]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

I love Maddux Randy Johnson and Clemens, but I go with Pedro! What he did in Fenway, against the roid era in the DH league could not be put into words. He had the stiffest competition in the history of the game, and dominated!

 

[bodiaz]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Nolan Ryan by a mile. Who can compare to 7 no hitters?!?!

Most overrated pitcher of alltime.

 

[scotty21690]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

bodiaz, thanked on both accounts.

 

[MallCopKJ]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Man with all the other threads, I would have figured someone would have asked "greatest on what basis"?
You guys just don't learn

Anyway, IMHO, they are all the greatest.

Clemens= greatest* statistically
Gibson=greatest statistically
Seaver=greatest consistently and longevity
Maddux=greatest groundout pitcher
Randy Johnson=greatest strikeouts/9IP
Koufax=well, uh, he was gay and Jewish

Sure we can throw a few more greatest in there while we are at it
Nolan=best at fooling many he was greatest due to his long mediocre career
Pedro=best at throwing managers to the ground (seriously, who picked him..he is up there for pWAR and so/9ip, but he doesn't really own any stats, so not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here)?

Point being, "greatest" is a subjective and relative word, which can be defined by whatever meaning one chooses.
Beyond that, I personally would say that the most correct answer based on WAR, pWAR, Winshares, or most any other meaningful statistic you could throw at them would be:

Clemens* or if you don't like asteriks Bob Gibson...both beat Koufax in every category, even if you look at just their best 5 years.

Instead of picking random crap to defend against whatever anyone says, try watching some baseball and form an opinion.

"well, uh, he wore red cleats and red cleated pitchers WAR was lower than the black cleat Post WAR Win deposit Share of the Stimulous pWARso/7a(p to the second power. Therefore Williams sucked and Ruth liked hot dogs."

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Just to show how dominant Pedro actually was....here is his 7 consecutive year stretch as compared to Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens.

[/img]

Again, I agree, Pedro is right up there, and could be easily flip-flopped in the rankings based on whatever criteria you pick, with all the other pitchers I listed besides clemens and Gibson.

IMHO both Clemens and Gibson beat him. Clemens was more dominant for a longer period of time (steroids).
His peak years may not have been consecutive, but hey spanned more than one era (granted, steroids again), but try using these years instead of the years you selected.

1986-1987
1990-1992
1996-1997

 

[MallCopKJ]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Just to show how dominant Pedro actually was....here is his 7 consecutive year stretch as compared to Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens.

[/img]

Again, I agree, Pedro is right up there, and could be easily flip-flopped in the rankings based on whatever criteria you pick, with all the other pitchers I listed besides clemens and Gibson.

IMHO both Clemens and Gibson beat him. Clemens was more dominant for a longer period of time (steroids).
His peak years may not have been consecutive, but hey spanned more than one era (granted, steroids again), but try using these years instead of the years you selected.

1986-1987
1990-1992
1996-1997

Now you agree? You said you were "not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here". Now we're making progress.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Just to show how dominant Pedro actually was....here is his 7 consecutive year stretch as compared to Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens.

[/img]

Again, I agree, Pedro is right up there, and could be easily flip-flopped in the rankings based on whatever criteria you pick, with all the other pitchers I listed besides clemens and Gibson.

IMHO both Clemens and Gibson beat him. Clemens was more dominant for a longer period of time (steroids).
His peak years may not have been consecutive, but hey spanned more than one era (granted, steroids again), but try using these years instead of the years you selected.

1986-1987
1990-1992
1996-1997

Now you agree? You said you were "not sure why he was picked as greatest by one person here". Now we're making progress.

I always agreed. You can even look at Levy's thread a month ago. I just said not the greatest. I was actually commending the recomendation, and curious how you picked him, as most do not see him as one of the greatest! I don't agree he is #1, but believe he ranks up there with the rest.

I don't know how clemens or gibson will stack up using your methodology with the years I provide, but I think you would see a bigger difference if we went to 10 years instead of 7 for either gibson or clemens.

 

[scotty21690]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Just to show how dominant Pedro actually was....here is his 7 consecutive year stretch as compared to Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens.

[/img]

Again, I agree, Pedro is right up there, and could be easily flip-flopped in the rankings based on whatever criteria you pick, with all the other pitchers I listed besides clemens and Gibson.

IMHO both Clemens and Gibson beat him. Clemens was more dominant for a longer period of time (steroids).
His peak years may not have been consecutive, but hey spanned more than one era (granted, steroids again), but try using these years instead of the years you selected.

1986-1987
1990-1992
1996-1997

There you go again, in order to make a pitcher look better you just seem to throw away some of their seasons. Here is a fact, Pedro had a better 7 year stretch than any other post war pitcher.

Just to please you, I calculated Clemens ERA over his 7 best non-consecutive seasons you chose and it came out to be 2.45 STILL higher than Pedros over 7 consecutive seasons.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

^^^here are a couple quotes I made about Pedro in recent threads here:

>>I could say that if Pedro Martinez were to face off against Christy Matthewson (both in their primes) today, that Pedro would blow him away, even though WAR won't show that. WAR cannot say that Matthwson was better in his prime than Pedro Martinez was in his prime, and there will never be a way to accurately measure that, but I am open to debate.

In Chris Levy's original WAR thread titled "Any statisticians around? Warning: Math!", which started most of this talk about a month ago...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115318&hilit=pedro

>>I would be curious how well pedro martinez faired in his best 5 seasons...i think it would amaze a few people.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Here is a fact, Pedro had a better 7 year stretch than any other post war pitcher.

Based on "your calculations", if that is your definition of who is greatest, then by your definition he is greatest.
You even showed him not being in #1 for all categories, so I guess it depends on how much weight you put on each category.

TO me, his domination was compartively short-lived, which to ME, doesn't make him #1,
TO me consecutive isn't as important as dominance longevity.

 

[fonda1119]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

I love Maddux Randy Johnson and Clemens, but I go with Pedro! What he did in Fenway, against the roid era in the DH league could not be put into words. He had the stiffest competition in the history of the game, and dominated!

This. He was unbelievable.

I'm not knocking Gibson ('68 might be the greatest single season of all time) but 1968 was his only season with an ERA+ of 200. Martinez had 5 (most of all time)! His 2000 season rivals Gibson's '68 by almost every account plus he has '97, '99, '02, and '03 to back it up.

The closest SP (post war) to Martinez' 154 career ERA+ is Roger Clemens' 143. In other words not close. Martinez also has the best OPS+ against. It's 60. Clemens is next at 69. And, as someone else has mentioned, Martinez is 3rd post-war in K/9 at 10.04. If he continues to pitch will it decline? Probably. But his last 3 years combined he has a 7.7 K/9... which is still higher than Gibson's career total (7.2)! In fact Gibson's highest single season total is 8.4. Please realize that Martinez only had 3 years ('95, '09, '10) with a lower K/9 than Gibson's best K/9.

Fact is, Martinez put up better pitching numbers in the greatest offensive era in history than Gibson did in one of the worst hitting eras in history.

 

[hofautos]

Re: Who was the greatest POST-WAR pitcher?

Just to please you, I calculated Clemens ERA over his 7 best non-consecutive seasons you chose and it came out to be 2.45 STILL higher than Pedros over 7 consecutive seasons.

Can you put all the numbers up side by side, not just ERA, in the same manner as you did the 7 consecutive years that "you picked".
I would love to see them....maybe I will agree that Pedro is better than Clemens or Gibson, but I doubt it...You have already earned my respect, but I still haven't ever backed down on any debate on FCBS yet

PS - again, I have always believed that Pedro is one of the best post-season pitchers, i just wouldn't rank him #1....yet...