Will The Hobby Be Able To Take A Blow Like

[ljw29]

so is this just targeted towards game used cards? I mean the autographs are pretty clear if it is the players signature or not and even card companies wouldnt be dumb enough to fake a players signature onto a card.

Be surprised I know a player that was a Top 3 Round Draft Pick couple years ago in Baseball and his roommate and teammate signed his thru the mail during the offseason and they even joked he would pay him to sign his cards.

And I never put anything past these companies

 

[donrusscrusademan]

yeah, $-wise everything would take a massive hit. even if the companies set up a safer way to do autos/GU, the consumer wouldnt buy it... they would have to go back to the 90s style where the big "hit" was something shiney... more would collect vintage, but most everyone would leave.

 

[Lars]

This

IT has everthing to do with collectors, What would be the point of an investigation if it didnt have victims. This is above trimming and card repair. It is about fraud on a large scale in hundreds of millions of dollars. I love how people are just dismissing something that very well can destory this hobby on a large scale. OH well, I went to the national just to hear things and voice concerns about my collection. The same voiced by others there, Hoping in the end it wont be as bad then predicted.

The no mention of collector's has to do with this 'association' that is being proposed. They can say 'See. We are cleaning up our act." but all they are really doing is covering their butt and trying to save the value of their inventory. "Joe Blow isn't a member of the SCDA(Sports Collectible Dealer Association or whatever they want to call it) his Mantle autograph could be fake. Buy one from a SCDA dealer for double the price." Marshall Foegel suggested this very type of association two years ago. His speech about it is on youtube. Lots of talk about keeping disputes out of public view and out of the court room and legal system. Nothing about cleaning up fakes but lots about how great an investment collectibles are. I'm not saying that this isn't important and there isn't tons of fraud going on, there is and there always will be. I'm saying that very little will come of the FBI investigation. A few bottom dwellers may do time but no major players will do time. Your question is the hobby will survive. It will and with very little change. The biggest card in the hobby that has been graded by the biggest aunthenticator is known to have been altered and yet PSA graded cards rule the vintage market. I prefer them myself and by tons each year. Just an example that most people do not care.

 

[Joshua.Roundtree]

so is this just targeted towards game used cards? I mean the autographs are pretty clear if it is the players signature or not and even card companies wouldnt be dumb enough to fake a players signature onto a card.

Be surprised I know a player that was a Top 3 Round Draft Pick couple years ago in Baseball and his roommate and teammate signed his thru the mail during the offseason and they even joked he would pay him to sign his cards.

And I never put anything past these companies

I know that a VERY prominent player didn't sign all of his stickers for Panini and had help from a teammate while they were on their minor league bus trips. But that isn't the companies fault. They have a contract with the players to sign the stickers. The players might be at fault, at least in this particular instance. Either way, the hobby survives. If every card with a MLB game used jersey is fake it wouldn't make a difference to me, not my cup of tea. If its proven that not all sticker Autographs are signed by the player they are supposed to be signed by, no sweat either. On-card rookie card autos or stickers that you know are signed by the player because the signature is identical to an on-card autograph. If on-card autographs are found to be forged by companies, then yes, this would cause a big problem.

 

[Sean_C]

I don't think a trade group will have any effect at this point. Collectors don't care whether you are a good seller or a scumbag as long as you have the items they want.

The idea that a trade group would be attempted to be formed by Marshall, a guy that has very little direct interaction with his fellow collectors, and JP Cohen, a guy with a sketchy past both in and out of the hobby is laughable.

 

[boomo]

what was the deal with the gretzky wagner?
was it fake?

 

[Jastermereel]

what was the deal with the gretzky wagner?
was it fake?

It's real, just cut from a strip/trimmed.

 

[Jastermereel]

This meeting is a joke. It's like Pete Rose calling a meeting to clean up baseball.

Further, even if something went down it wouldn't effect 95% of people on this board. I'd guess 90% have never even bid w/ an auction house before.

I agree, business as usual.

You will be shocked

No I won't be. The concerns are centered around shill bidding primarily. Something most of us have to deal with on a regular basis. This just takes it to a grander level.

 

[mchenrycards]

Whatever. Maybe if everything goes down the drain I can pick up the rest of the T206 set for less than $40,000. Or pick up Griffey autos for $20 per.

I have a pretty decent amount of money in my collection, but I collect because I enjoy it.

Wow I cant agree with this statement more!! I collect for my enjoyment first and if a item becomes valuable then that is just icing on the cake!! I enjoy my collection not for the value but for the memories it gives me of times gone by and for the fun of collecting some future stars. Future value is only a bi-product of the enjoyment I receive from this hobby.


I have been around this hobby for 35+ years and every 10 years or so a collectors organization is proposed but nothing ever happens with it. I just don't think it would have any impact on the hobby because collectors will do what they want to satisfy their collecting desires as much as the companies will do what they want to satisfy their bottom line! The only way to truly impact the companies and make changes is to affect their bottom line and vote with our dollars. We can also make our feelings known to MLB that more manufacturers are desired but I just don't think they care at this point because they are making their money and thats all that counts to them.

As for the FBI investigation, well this is the third National that they have had a presence at. I think the pressure they have put on the companies have done much to clean up the shenanigans that some of the auction houses have been doing in the last number of years. The fact that Mastro, the most respected auction house in the business is no more because of this investigation should tell everyone how corrupt the auction house business can be. I think this investigation has done much to clean up the industry and any charges that are brought forth now will only be to people that either are no longer in the auction business or are tainted (yes I said tainted) by these allegations which has caused their business to be hurt. Auctions houses like Robert Edwards and Lelands will survive BUT only if they work harder to show the collector that there is nothing corrupt going on behind the scenes and they do their due diligence to prove an item they are selling is exactly as it is represented. Keeping everything above reproach is the only way an auction house will survive in this day and age.

Happy collecting guys and girls! Remember its a hobby first to most of us!

 

[matfanofold]

The worst case scenerio that I can see is that autograph, gu and gw material will take a hit. Modern stuff might suffer a tad as well, but vintage will stay as strong as ever. And unless grading companies like PSA or BGS are dragged through the mud as well, certified materials could see a nice spike. My personal opinion is that, even with a 'worst case scenerio' it will not effect the casual collector one bit. It will probablly add value to vintage and certified item collectors, and will make the hobby more worth while in the long run.

Thoes who are making money off of selling fake stuff, and thoes buying raw/uncertified materials are among the top of the list to suffer to varying degrees if this ever comes to fruition. And if you really read between the lines you will see this is just another attempt by the goverment to create a way to capatilize on the money the hobby generates.

 

[zach]

I see it as a slow-dying hobby to begin with. It's not what it used to be 20+ years ago.

 

[matfanofold]

I see it as a slow-dying hobby to begin with. It's not what it used to be 20+ years ago.

Believe me, I'm a big advocate for the hobby being better in the past, but I do disagree with the first part of your statment. Although the hobby is only a fraction strong as it was, I believe it to be more refined, and dynamic now. And infact, I think it's growing.

 

[zach]

I see it as a slow-dying hobby to begin with. It's not what it used to be 20+ years ago.

Believe me, I'm a big advocate for the hobby being better in the past, but I do disagree with the first part of your statment. Although the hobby is only a fraction strong as it was, I believe it to be more refined, and dynamic now. And infact, I think it's growing.

Maybe it's me, but I don't see kids excited to run out and pick up a few packs of cards like they used to. Where I live, it's very difficult to find someone selling packs of cards. Card shops are far and few between and I even noticed that the local 7-11's (that used to carry packs of cards) no longer stock them. So if the interest isn't there by today's youth (7-12 year old), eventually, it could really die off.

However, the dying-off could set up a huge resurgence 25-30 years from now when today's youth realizes what some cards could be worth that their parents or grandparents collected.

Is it cyclical?

 

[mchenrycards]

I see it as a slow-dying hobby to begin with. It's not what it used to be 20+ years ago.

Thank God for that. twenty years ago saw overproduction from every manufacturer and speculating on card futures at a huge level that could never be sustained. The late 80's were a bad time for this hobby and should never be revisited again. As to the hobby slowly dying, well I just dont think so. I think with every market there is a correction and we are in another correction period. With every correction in a market people get out and others come in. Once again, this cycle will weed out the speculators and leave mainly the true collectors in the hobby. I dont see this as a bad thing. Prices on many cards are coming back to realistic levels, even on vintage. Graded cards that once sold for huge dollars because someone deemed them to be a "9" are heading back to nearly raw prices. These lower prices are going to lure others back into a market who were previously shut out or refused to pay the crazy prices.

The hobby will be fine, it is just in a cycle right now that will weed out the people who are inexperienced and see the hobby for a way to make a quick few bucks and not collect for the enjoyment of it.

Long live the collector!! LOL

 

[sportscardtheory]

The sky is not falling. This is just some hobby big-wigs trying to scare everyone into thinking that because THEY had shady dealings and are being investigated, the entire hobby will suffer. No, the people having shady dealings will suffer, not you or I. Pretty big-headed of them if you ask me. If you do everything right, you have no worries. The people left holding the proverbial bag with fake game-used material and forged autographs might be hurt some, but this isn't some hobby-crippling situation, it's crippling only to certain aspects of the hobby, the ones that need fixing to begin with.

 

[brouthercard]

The hobby will be fine.

If the hobby only consisted of autographs and game used items, then maybe those doom-sayers have a point.

Remember the foundation of the baseball card hobby, though, and it is cards. Plenty of pre-90's cards to collect, plenty of 90's inserts to collect, and plenty of non-gu/auto sets to put together.

 

[Mr.Whipple]

The sky is not falling. This is just some hobby big-wigs trying to scare everyone into thinking that because THEY had shady dealings and are being investigated, the entire hobby will suffer. No, the people having shady dealings will suffer, not you or I. Pretty big-headed of them if you ask me. If you do everything right, you have no worries. The people left holding the proverbial bag with game-used material and autographs might be hurt some, but this isn't some hobby-crippling situation, it's crippling only to certain aspects of the hobby, the ones that need fixing to begin with.

So if you bought from Mastro, You had shady dealings? The investigation is about shill bidding and fraud, Focusing on items that are not what claimed to be. Some of the items were game used and cuts purchased by companies to be put in cards. What if grading companies are shown to have given more favorable grades to certain people? Both would hit the hobby harder than most think. UD and Topps both had issues with integrity this year. UD with making sets without permission and admitting to counterfiting cards. Topps offered replacements for Ruth "game used bats" that were infact part of a bench, They hoped no one would be able to tell on that one. Topps even uses vague wording to protect itself against items being game issue and not game used.

I would suffer if things turn out the way it seems as would all collectors suffer. Have things from Mastro in my collection and the hit would be pretty heavy on me.

 

[nyc3]

The sky is not falling.

+ 10000000000

But dont waste your time some just dont want to hear the other side. People have been screaming about fake game used items and fake cuts for years now. Has it destroyed the hobby? Not one bit. If it will do anything it will force the card companies to get a grip on this and pay more attention.

As for people screaming about fake stuff for one we dont even know what items where fake, for all we know it was a game used sock and several fake autographs along with a ton of shill bidding. But its much easier to freak out and attempt to freak everyone else out while doing so.

 

[KOBEARODLT]

so is this just targeted towards game used cards? I mean the autographs are pretty clear if it is the players signature or not and even card companies wouldnt be dumb enough to fake a players signature onto a card.

Be surprised I know a player that was a Top 3 Round Draft Pick couple years ago in Baseball and his roommate and teammate signed his thru the mail during the offseason and they even joked he would pay him to sign his cards.

And I never put anything past these companies

I know that a VERY prominent player didn't sign all of his stickers for Panini and had help from a teammate while they were on their minor league bus trips. But that isn't the companies fault. They have a contract with the players to sign the stickers. The players might be at fault, at least in this particular instance. Either way, the hobby survives. If every card with a MLB game used jersey is fake it wouldn't make a difference to me, not my cup of tea. If its proven that not all sticker Autographs are signed by the player they are supposed to be signed by, no sweat either. On-card rookie card autos or stickers that you know are signed by the player because the signature is identical to an on-card autograph. If on-card autographs are found to be forged by companies, then yes, this would cause a big problem.

like who? im sorry but half these players from basketball and football (panini products) can barely sign there own name, how can they sign another persons name perfectly?

 

[Mr.Whipple]

The sky is not falling.

+ 10000000000

But dont waste your time some just dont want to hear the other side. People have been screaming about fake game used items and fake cuts for years now. Has it destroyed the hobby? Not one bit. If it will do anything it will force the card companies to get a grip on this and pay more attention.

As for people screaming about fake stuff for one we dont even know what items where fake, for all we know it was a game used sock and several fake autographs along with a ton of shill bidding. But its much easier to freak out and attempt to freak everyone else out while doing so.

One of the last fake items was a Jordan UNC warm up jacket, That was altered at the request of Bill Mastro and sold in the 25,000 range. I love the it doesnt mean much to me attitude. Shill Bidding also affects the hobby on a large scale, But brush it off like others and act like its something petty. People who have hundreds of thousands and millions in a hobby are worried and scared of the storm its gonna cause is really nothing to fret. Just like how people ignored and forgot about the Gretzky BGS rookie photo. Showed a pic of a 100+ rookies fanned out on a table and it was post grading. Some graded gems and others didnt. That shows you how much grading is a sham. But hey, It wont do anything to the hobby that already has one lousy reputation as it stands today.