Worst everyday starting player in MLB

[matty07]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

They just need someone to take up space until they sign Crawford.

I pray to god that doesnt happen

 

[kdailey4315]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

They just need someone to take up space until they sign Crawford.

I pray to god that doesnt happen

Same here. He's going to look great in a Giants uni.

 

[darocker80]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

They just need someone to take up space until they sign Crawford.

I pray to god that doesnt happen

Same here. He's going to look great in a Giants uni.

Was thinking that the other day. He's exactly what we need. A good defender, great lead off hitter, and will thrive pulling those line drives to triples alley, and the brick wall

 

[Jays_Cards]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1piduheg]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1piduheg]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1piduheg][quote="kdailey4315":1piduheg][quote="matty07":1piduheg]It's pretty hilarious how much you guys are overrating Bengie Molina. He is a TERRIBLE offensive catcher. Hitting 4th in the lineup of course gives him more RBI opportunities, but you can have the HRs for his absolutely atrocious OBP. Give me a Joe Mauer pre-2009 type catcher (never hit more than 13 HRs in a single season) yet was 100000000000x the offensive player that Molina ever was. Bengie flat out sucks.

Those were the ranks of the catchers last year from yahoo default fantasy baseball. Is that the end all be all? No. But it is a good representation of how the catchers OFFENSIVELY stack up.

Really...Fantasy draft position now beats out actual advanced statistics?

Slow down, take a deep breath, and re read my post. Those were the ranks based on last years overall numbers. Nothing to do with this years draft position. Last years stats only.

Again, what does fantasy draft position, projection, or anything else have to do with actual baseball? Fantasy only counts the "counting stats" BA/HR/RBI etc...It has absolutely nothing to do with how players are measured in the real world, hence "fantasy".

::facepalm:: I take it you never played fantasy baseball so I'll break it down for you. Fantasy baseball rankings are based on stats played in real games by real players. Their offensive numbers in certain categories are then averaged somehow and a ranking is given, again based on real stats from real games played. So, if those rankings are based on actual stats from actual games played by the actual players last year how are they not accurate?[/quote:1piduheg]

Are you dense? Where did I say anything about the stats not being accurate? Fantasy stats are contrived, selected stats that do not encompass every aspect of baseball. Take Bengies wonderful .285 OBP last year (the second worst in the league last year of ANY qualified player.) This does not impact his fantasy value at all since OBP is not counted in fantasy baseball but significantly impacts actual baseball. Fantasy baseball only considers runs (which Bengie Molina scored the 6th fewest runs in baseball last year from all qualified players), home runs, batting average, and RBI. The only reason Bengie is valuable in fantasy is because he is a catcher who hits HRs and HRs are valuable in fantasy. San Fran had the single WORST production in all of baseball last year from the cleanup spot. Guess who it there all of last year? You can keep coming up with garbage while ignoring the real stats all you want..It doesnt change the fact that I am right.[/quote:1piduheg]


You are literally too stupid to insult! Molina hit 95 RBI one year, and 20 HRs the next, those were the last 2 seasons btw. He is also a fine defense Catcher, one of the 2 most important positions on the field! He hit 3rd for the Giants just 2 years ago! How can you possibly try to argue him being the worst player in the league? Did he bang your mother or something? Why the Molina hatred? The reason I accused you of being a Posey slappy is because that is the only possible explanation. And the fact the Molina is on Fantasy baseball teams proves he cannot be the worst player. There are 100s of players on zero percent of FB teams, and alot of them do not catch for a contender! You are either too ignorant to get all of this, or more likely just a dumb MF er! Good day.[/quote:1piduheg]

Im pretty sure you get a tax deduction and some social security benefits for being mentally retarded..You should check into it.[/quote:1piduheg]

First of all your a frackin tool ********** for taking it to that level. Second of all the league where I got those stats from actually counted OBP as a stat. Face it. Bengie Molina is not one of the wrost everyday player in baseball and he's not even the worst catcher. Provide some actual stats to prove me wrong or STFU.[/quote:1piduheg]

What more stats do you want you *******? You have gotten OBP, R, Batting component of WAR, WAR, Fangraph relative value and all you have given is "fantasy" value and HRs. Jesus, some people should not be allowed to procreate.

 

[kdailey4315]

[quote="Jays_Cards":3lisl00e]

[quote="Jays_Cards":3lisl00e]

[quote="Jays_Cards":3lisl00e]

[quote="Jays_Cards":3lisl00e][quote="kdailey4315":3lisl00e][quote="matty07":3lisl00e]It's pretty hilarious how much you guys are overrating Bengie Molina. He is a TERRIBLE offensive catcher. Hitting 4th in the lineup of course gives him more RBI opportunities, but you can have the HRs for his absolutely atrocious OBP. Give me a Joe Mauer pre-2009 type catcher (never hit more than 13 HRs in a single season) yet was 100000000000x the offensive player that Molina ever was. Bengie flat out sucks.

Those were the ranks of the catchers last year from yahoo default fantasy baseball. Is that the end all be all? No. But it is a good representation of how the catchers OFFENSIVELY stack up.

Really...Fantasy draft position now beats out actual advanced statistics?

Slow down, take a deep breath, and re read my post. Those were the ranks based on last years overall numbers. Nothing to do with this years draft position. Last years stats only.

Again, what does fantasy draft position, projection, or anything else have to do with actual baseball? Fantasy only counts the "counting stats" BA/HR/RBI etc...It has absolutely nothing to do with how players are measured in the real world, hence "fantasy".

::facepalm:: I take it you never played fantasy baseball so I'll break it down for you. Fantasy baseball rankings are based on stats played in real games by real players. Their offensive numbers in certain categories are then averaged somehow and a ranking is given, again based on real stats from real games played. So, if those rankings are based on actual stats from actual games played by the actual players last year how are they not accurate?[/quote:3lisl00e]

Are you dense? Where did I say anything about the stats not being accurate? Fantasy stats are contrived, selected stats that do not encompass every aspect of baseball. Take Bengies wonderful .285 OBP last year (the second worst in the league last year of ANY qualified player.) This does not impact his fantasy value at all since OBP is not counted in fantasy baseball but significantly impacts actual baseball. Fantasy baseball only considers runs (which Bengie Molina scored the 6th fewest runs in baseball last year from all qualified players), home runs, batting average, and RBI. The only reason Bengie is valuable in fantasy is because he is a catcher who hits HRs and HRs are valuable in fantasy. San Fran had the single WORST production in all of baseball last year from the cleanup spot. Guess who it there all of last year? You can keep coming up with garbage while ignoring the real stats all you want..It doesnt change the fact that I am right.[/quote:3lisl00e]


You are literally too stupid to insult! Molina hit 95 RBI one year, and 20 HRs the next, those were the last 2 seasons btw. He is also a fine defense Catcher, one of the 2 most important positions on the field! He hit 3rd for the Giants just 2 years ago! How can you possibly try to argue him being the worst player in the league? Did he bang your mother or something? Why the Molina hatred? The reason I accused you of being a Posey slappy is because that is the only possible explanation. And the fact the Molina is on Fantasy baseball teams proves he cannot be the worst player. There are 100s of players on zero percent of FB teams, and alot of them do not catch for a contender! You are either too ignorant to get all of this, or more likely just a dumb MF er! Good day.[/quote:3lisl00e]

Im pretty sure you get a tax deduction and some social security benefits for being mentally retarded..You should check into it.[/quote:3lisl00e]

First of all your a frackin tool ********** for taking it to that level. Second of all the league where I got those stats from actually counted OBP as a stat. Face it. Bengie Molina is not one of the wrost everyday player in baseball and he's not even the worst catcher. Provide some actual stats to prove me wrong or STFU.[/quote:3lisl00e]

What more stats do you want you *******? You have gotten OBP, R, Batting component of WAR, WAR, Fangraph relative value and all you have given is "fantasy" value and HRs. Jesus, some people should not be allowed to procreate.[/quote:3lisl00e]

I can just spout off random stats also *******. I haven't see any player to player comparisons form you that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 as you put it. Once again show some actual stats from actual players side by side that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 or STFU.

 

[cowboysrule48]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

 

[cowboysrule48]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

They just need someone to take up space until they sign Crawford.

I pray to god that doesnt happen

Same here. He's going to look great in a Giants uni.

Was thinking that the other day. He's exactly what we need. A good defender, great lead off hitter, and will thrive pulling those line drives to triples alley, and the brick wall

Carl Crawford is not a great leadoff hitter. Just because you are fast doesn't make you a good leadoff hitter.

 

[kdailey4315]

Bengie's ranks among Catcher according to the 2009 MLB season.

Ave: 6th
Hits: 6th
HR: 5th (Tied)
RBI: 6th
K: 3rd (Catchers that had enough at bats to qualify for an average)
Ave: 11th
OBP: 24th

Please show me some stats that will put Bengie Molina as a bottom 3 catcher and anywhere near the worst everyday starter in baseball.

 

[Jays_Cards]

[quote="Jays_Cards":36ij6pkt]

[quote="Jays_Cards":36ij6pkt]

[quote="Jays_Cards":36ij6pkt][quote="kdailey4315":36ij6pkt][quote="Jays_Cards":36ij6pkt][quote="kdailey4315":36ij6pkt][quote="matty07":36ij6pkt]It's pretty hilarious how much you guys are overrating Bengie Molina. He is a TERRIBLE offensive catcher. Hitting 4th in the lineup of course gives him more RBI opportunities, but you can have the HRs for his absolutely atrocious OBP. Give me a Joe Mauer pre-2009 type catcher (never hit more than 13 HRs in a single season) yet was 100000000000x the offensive player that Molina ever was. Bengie flat out sucks.

Those were the ranks of the catchers last year from yahoo default fantasy baseball. Is that the end all be all? No. But it is a good representation of how the catchers OFFENSIVELY stack up.

Really...Fantasy draft position now beats out actual advanced statistics?

Slow down, take a deep breath, and re read my post. Those were the ranks based on last years overall numbers. Nothing to do with this years draft position. Last years stats only.

Again, what does fantasy draft position, projection, or anything else have to do with actual baseball? Fantasy only counts the "counting stats" BA/HR/RBI etc...It has absolutely nothing to do with how players are measured in the real world, hence "fantasy".

::facepalm:: I take it you never played fantasy baseball so I'll break it down for you. Fantasy baseball rankings are based on stats played in real games by real players. Their offensive numbers in certain categories are then averaged somehow and a ranking is given, again based on real stats from real games played. So, if those rankings are based on actual stats from actual games played by the actual players last year how are they not accurate?[/quote:36ij6pkt]

Are you dense? Where did I say anything about the stats not being accurate? Fantasy stats are contrived, selected stats that do not encompass every aspect of baseball. Take Bengies wonderful .285 OBP last year (the second worst in the league last year of ANY qualified player.) This does not impact his fantasy value at all since OBP is not counted in fantasy baseball but significantly impacts actual baseball. Fantasy baseball only considers runs (which Bengie Molina scored the 6th fewest runs in baseball last year from all qualified players), home runs, batting average, and RBI. The only reason Bengie is valuable in fantasy is because he is a catcher who hits HRs and HRs are valuable in fantasy. San Fran had the single WORST production in all of baseball last year from the cleanup spot. Guess who it there all of last year? You can keep coming up with garbage while ignoring the real stats all you want..It doesnt change the fact that I am right.[/quote:36ij6pkt]


You are literally too stupid to insult! Molina hit 95 RBI one year, and 20 HRs the next, those were the last 2 seasons btw. He is also a fine defense Catcher, one of the 2 most important positions on the field! He hit 3rd for the Giants just 2 years ago! How can you possibly try to argue him being the worst player in the league? Did he bang your mother or something? Why the Molina hatred? The reason I accused you of being a Posey slappy is because that is the only possible explanation. And the fact the Molina is on Fantasy baseball teams proves he cannot be the worst player. There are 100s of players on zero percent of FB teams, and alot of them do not catch for a contender! You are either too ignorant to get all of this, or more likely just a dumb MF er! Good day.[/quote:36ij6pkt]

Im pretty sure you get a tax deduction and some social security benefits for being mentally retarded..You should check into it.[/quote:36ij6pkt]

First of all your a frackin tool ********** for taking it to that level. Second of all the league where I got those stats from actually counted OBP as a stat. Face it. Bengie Molina is not one of the wrost everyday player in baseball and he's not even the worst catcher. Provide some actual stats to prove me wrong or STFU.[/quote:36ij6pkt]

What more stats do you want you *******? You have gotten OBP, R, Batting component of WAR, WAR, Fangraph relative value and all you have given is "fantasy" value and HRs. Jesus, some people should not be allowed to procreate.[/quote:36ij6pkt]

I can just spout off random stats also *******. I haven't see any player to player comparisons form you that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 as you put it. Once again show some actual stats from actual players side by side that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 or STFU.[/quote:36ij6pkt]

Bengie Molina - (from Catchers with at least 400 ABs)

.285 OBP - 2nd worst among starting catchers last year
.727 OPS - 4th worst among starting catchers last year
BB % - Dead LAST among starting catchers last year
Speed rating - dead LAST among starting catchers last year
K % - 9th worst among starting catchers last year
wOBA - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
BB/K - 2nd worst among starting catchers last year
1.7 WAR - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
Batting component of WAR - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
Replacement value - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
LD%- 4th lowest among starting catchers last year
GB% - 2nd lowest among starting catchers last year

Yea, he is definitely a great catcher...

 

[Lally1]

Nick Punto

You have GOT to be kidding..

 

[Jays_Cards]

Bengie's ranks among Catcher according to the 2009 MLB season.

Ave: 6th
Hits: 6th
HR: 5th (Tied)
RBI: 6th
K: 3rd (Catchers that had enough at bats to qualify for an average)
Ave: 11th
OBP: 24th

Please show me some stats that will put Bengie Molina as a bottom 3 catcher and anywhere near the worst everyday starter in baseball.

All hitting stats (the majority of which are counting stats). Nice avg 6th and 11th btw..How old are you?

 

[Jays_Cards]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

 

[matty07]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1wrolt90]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1wrolt90]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1wrolt90]

[quote="Jays_Cards":1wrolt90][quote="kdailey4315":1wrolt90][quote="Jays_Cards":1wrolt90][quote="kdailey4315":1wrolt90][quote="matty07":1wrolt90]It's pretty hilarious how much you guys are overrating Bengie Molina. He is a TERRIBLE offensive catcher. Hitting 4th in the lineup of course gives him more RBI opportunities, but you can have the HRs for his absolutely atrocious OBP. Give me a Joe Mauer pre-2009 type catcher (never hit more than 13 HRs in a single season) yet was 100000000000x the offensive player that Molina ever was. Bengie flat out sucks.

Those were the ranks of the catchers last year from yahoo default fantasy baseball. Is that the end all be all? No. But it is a good representation of how the catchers OFFENSIVELY stack up.

Really...Fantasy draft position now beats out actual advanced statistics?

Slow down, take a deep breath, and re read my post. Those were the ranks based on last years overall numbers. Nothing to do with this years draft position. Last years stats only.

Again, what does fantasy draft position, projection, or anything else have to do with actual baseball? Fantasy only counts the "counting stats" BA/HR/RBI etc...It has absolutely nothing to do with how players are measured in the real world, hence "fantasy".

::facepalm:: I take it you never played fantasy baseball so I'll break it down for you. Fantasy baseball rankings are based on stats played in real games by real players. Their offensive numbers in certain categories are then averaged somehow and a ranking is given, again based on real stats from real games played. So, if those rankings are based on actual stats from actual games played by the actual players last year how are they not accurate?[/quote:1wrolt90]

Are you dense? Where did I say anything about the stats not being accurate? Fantasy stats are contrived, selected stats that do not encompass every aspect of baseball. Take Bengies wonderful .285 OBP last year (the second worst in the league last year of ANY qualified player.) This does not impact his fantasy value at all since OBP is not counted in fantasy baseball but significantly impacts actual baseball. Fantasy baseball only considers runs (which Bengie Molina scored the 6th fewest runs in baseball last year from all qualified players), home runs, batting average, and RBI. The only reason Bengie is valuable in fantasy is because he is a catcher who hits HRs and HRs are valuable in fantasy. San Fran had the single WORST production in all of baseball last year from the cleanup spot. Guess who it there all of last year? You can keep coming up with garbage while ignoring the real stats all you want..It doesnt change the fact that I am right.[/quote:1wrolt90]


You are literally too stupid to insult! Molina hit 95 RBI one year, and 20 HRs the next, those were the last 2 seasons btw. He is also a fine defense Catcher, one of the 2 most important positions on the field! He hit 3rd for the Giants just 2 years ago! How can you possibly try to argue him being the worst player in the league? Did he bang your mother or something? Why the Molina hatred? The reason I accused you of being a Posey slappy is because that is the only possible explanation. And the fact the Molina is on Fantasy baseball teams proves he cannot be the worst player. There are 100s of players on zero percent of FB teams, and alot of them do not catch for a contender! You are either too ignorant to get all of this, or more likely just a dumb MF er! Good day.[/quote:1wrolt90]

Im pretty sure you get a tax deduction and some social security benefits for being mentally retarded..You should check into it.[/quote:1wrolt90]

First of all your a frackin tool ********** for taking it to that level. Second of all the league where I got those stats from actually counted OBP as a stat. Face it. Bengie Molina is not one of the wrost everyday player in baseball and he's not even the worst catcher. Provide some actual stats to prove me wrong or STFU.[/quote:1wrolt90]

What more stats do you want you *******? You have gotten OBP, R, Batting component of WAR, WAR, Fangraph relative value and all you have given is "fantasy" value and HRs. Jesus, some people should not be allowed to procreate.[/quote:1wrolt90]

I can just spout off random stats also *******. I haven't see any player to player comparisons form you that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 as you put it. Once again show some actual stats from actual players side by side that puts Bengie in the bottom 3 or STFU.[/quote:1wrolt90]

Bengie Molina - (from Catchers with at least 400 ABs)

.285 OBP - 2nd worst among starting catchers last year
.727 OPS - 4th worst among starting catchers last year
BB % - Dead LAST among starting catchers last year
Speed rating - dead LAST among starting catchers last year
K % - 9th worst among starting catchers last year
wOBA - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
BB/K - 2nd worst among starting catchers last year
1.7 WAR - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
Batting component of WAR - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
Replacement value - 7th worst among starting catchers last year
LD%- 4th lowest among starting catchers last year
GB% - 2nd lowest among starting catchers last year

Yea, he is definitely a great catcher...[/quote:1wrolt90]


Its funny you post these stats..but is he the worst NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[matty07]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

BUT IT DOESNT MAKE HIM THE WORST!!!!!

 

[cowboysrule48]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

But in the discussion for worst starter in the whole league? Seriously? I'm not saying that Dunn is some amazing player, but he is very underrated and may have a shot at Cooperstown if he can get to 600 homers which isn't out of the question. He has the 17th highest career OBP among all players currently in the majors. I don't understand how his name was even brought up?

 

[vwnut13]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

Huh?

 

[matty07]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

But in the discussion for worst starter in the whole league? Seriously? I'm not saying that Dunn is some amazing player, but he is very underrated and may have a shot at Cooperstown if he can get to 600 homers which isn't out of the question. He has the 17th highest career OBP among all players currently in the majors. I don't understand how his name was even brought up?

Im still trying to figure that out

 

[Jays_Cards]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

But in the discussion for worst starter in the whole league? Seriously? I'm not saying that Dunn is some amazing player, but he is very underrated and may have a shot at Cooperstown if he can get to 600 homers which isn't out of the question. He has the 17th highest career OBP among all players currently in the majors. I don't understand how his name was even brought up?

Adam Dunn will NEVER make Cooperstown. His name was brought up because we were not asked who the worst hitter in the league is..We were asking who the worst player is. Adam Dunn is hands down 100 times the single worst defensive players in baseball. He is also the one of the top 10 worst baserunners in baseball. Although we live in a generation which heavily favors HRs and RBIs, they are not the all encompassing aspect of baseball. If you go all the way back to my original post in which I nominated Adam Dunn, you would see that I said he wouldnt be anywhere near this discussion if he was a DH in the AL. Because he plays defense, however, he is definitely in the discussion here.

 

[Jays_Cards]

Brett Gardner. No clue what he's doing anywhere near an MLB roster, especially one with a $200M payroll.

Huh?

You cant take anything these people say seriously. Speed, runs created, and defense mean NOTHING to anyone here..Gardner is nowhere near this discussion.

 

[cowboysrule48]

[quote="Jays_Cards":2dgcom0i]

Does anyone else find it funny that the main stat that Jays_Cards is using against Molina is his OBP, yet totally disregards said stat when calling Adam Dunn one of the worst players in baseball? Adam Dunn is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Dunn definitely puts up a good OBP (the only thing he does well besides hitting HRs). These two stats alone do not make a good player, though.

But in the discussion for worst starter in the whole league? Seriously? I'm not saying that Dunn is some amazing player, but he is very underrated and may have a shot at Cooperstown if he can get to 600 homers which isn't out of the question. He has the 17th highest career OBP among all players currently in the majors. I don't understand how his name was even brought up?

Adam Dunn will NEVER make Cooperstown. His name was brought up because we were not asked who the worst hitter in the league is..We were asking who the worst player is. Adam Dunn is hands down 100 times the single worst defensive players in baseball. He is also the one of the top 10 worst baserunners in baseball. Although we live in a generation which heavily favors HRs and RBIs, they are not the all encompassing aspect of baseball. If you go all the way back to my original post in which I nominated Adam Dunn, you would see that I said he wouldnt be anywhere near this discussion if he was a DH in the AL. Because he plays defense, however, he is definitely in the discussion here.[/quote:2dgcom0i]

Saying Adam Dunn will never be in the Hall is a bold statement, when his career is over he will be more deserving than some people already in there. How is someone who is so valuable offensively one of the worst in the game? It doesn't make sense. Yes his defense leaves something to be desired, but his presence at the plate more than makes up for that. There are dozens of everyday starters that are far less beneficial to their teams than Dunn. You say you want to talk about every aspect of baseball. Then why when talking about Dunn are you ignoring his offense and only focusing on his defense?