HOLY COW What a RIDICULOUS Patch!

[ChasHawk]

the linear explanation is...it's fake or topps F'd up... :lol:

 

[Sjrmn91]

the linear explanation is...it's fake or topps F'd up... :lol:

Sorry, linear explanation that doesn't involve the card being fake or TBP Thanking Topps. :lol:

 

[nyc3]

the linear explanation is...it's fake or topps F'd up... :lol:

Or its both fake and topps f'd up :lol:

 

[homerun28aa]

I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year? If this is fake which I doubt, the documentation on the jersey Topps bought was fake. It is not difficult for them to buy game used jerseys especially of current players just have that player put it on. It is not a "wow that's a pretty card" thing, people are buying them taking into account that if this proved to be a major fraud there would be MAJOR jail time. Think about all of Topps' employees, this stuff would get out, they do make mistakes, yes. They produce SO many jersey cards of course some are going to be misplaced in others'. That's a given

In terms of the wording the Topps Tribute World Series cards, multiple collectors were advertising the Ruth bat and Cobb jerseys and things like that as being USED IN the world series just because it was a world series tribute card. The wording is merely to protect things like this. Like a rookie review jersey isn't necessarily worn rookie year, stuff like that. Some collectors are more brainless than Topps.

 

[morgoth]

I would love to have a piece like that for my Pirates collection but based on the Tag history it appears to just be a Pirates jersey that Clemente never wore.

I can see a transition phase from old to new but I can't see a Tag that was started in 74 being on a jersey in 72. Even if you give a one year phase in period it still is off by a year.

The issue with me is that even if it was not a fake patch it still has little value to me since it obviously never touched Clemente.

Going off of the phase in theory, and I know this may be grasping at straws, but is it possible it could have been part of a jersey used/displayed at his HOF induction in 1973?

Even if they used a jersey that was issued in honor of him in 73 it still didn't get worn by him so its value to me is very little.

Makes you also wonder why we so few tags and letters used on vintage game jersey cards, they have to exist somewhere.

 

[morgoth]

I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year? If this is fake which I doubt, the documentation on the jersey Topps bought was fake. It is not difficult for them to buy game used jerseys especially of current players just have that player put it on. It is not a "wow that's a pretty card" thing, people are buying them taking into account that if this proved to be a major fraud there would be MAJOR jail time. Think about all of Topps' employees, this stuff would get out, they do make mistakes, yes. They produce SO many jersey cards of course some are going to be misplaced in others'. That's a given

In terms of the wording the Topps Tribute World Series cards, multiple collectors were advertising the Ruth bat and Cobb jerseys and things like that as being USED IN the world series just because it was a world series tribute card. The wording is merely to protect things like this. Like a rookie review jersey isn't necessarily worn rookie year, stuff like that. Some collectors are more brainless than Topps.

Your timeline is off is the reason why. Clemente was dead in 1972, the tag on that patch card wasn't used until 1974. Unless Clemente owned a time machine, went into the future had Wilson make a Jersey for him with that type of tag and brought it back into the past and used it during his final season...........yeah no chance.

 

[morgoth]

I don't know how you can't say that collectors are just buying the cards because of how pretty they look. A stupid obvious fake patch will bring more money than a mono color "real" jersey card 99% of the time.

We know some facts about this.

1. The dealers that Topps and UD have been buying from have been caught selling fakes.
2. It has been reported by many insiders in the Industry in various places that Topps for one is still using the cheapest sources possible for game used. I don't see Topps name come up in many auctions at big AH's for Jersey's and other memorabillia but they seem to be pumping out Ty Cobb bat cards like there is no tomorrow.
3. Upperdeck isn't even using authentic jersey's for their high end products like SP Authentic as NCAA jerseys are very tough to get. Nothing like getting a game used print screened jersey piece out of a 200 dollar box.
4. Stadium seat pieces have been used instead of bat pieces without disclosure. In recent products like Tribute the pieces look nothing like old bat material for people like Ty Cobb but they still bring some money.

 

[BBCgalaxee]

I don't blame topps for using vague wording, cover their asses legally.

But I do have a problem w bench pieces not being disclosed.

Topps has nothing to worry about w this clemente, even if it really goes public & turns out fake. Just blame the seller as a faker.

 

[wolfmanalfredo]

I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year? If this is fake which I doubt, the documentation on the jersey Topps bought was fake. It is not difficult for them to buy game used jerseys especially of current players just have that player put it on. It is not a "wow that's a pretty card" thing, people are buying them taking into account that if this proved to be a major fraud there would be MAJOR jail time. Think about all of Topps' employees, this stuff would get out, they do make mistakes, yes. They produce SO many jersey cards of course some are going to be misplaced in others'. That's a given

In terms of the wording the Topps Tribute World Series cards, multiple collectors were advertising the Ruth bat and Cobb jerseys and things like that as being USED IN the world series just because it was a world series tribute card. The wording is merely to protect things like this. Like a rookie review jersey isn't necessarily worn rookie year, stuff like that. Some collectors are more brainless than Topps.

Your timeline is off is the reason why. Clemente was dead in 1972, the tag on that patch card wasn't used until 1974. Unless Clemente owned a time machine, went into the future had Wilson make a Jersey for him with that type of tag and brought it back into the past and used it during his final season...........yeah no chance.

Thank you, after reading through the thread post by post I refuse to believe that anyone with general baseball knowledge doesn't know Clemente died shortly after the 1972 season. This is the first post where someone adressed that. Even if there was a year trial before the 74 tag switch, he still in no way could have worn a jersey after 1972 because he had already passed on.

 

[ChasHawk]

I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year? If this is fake which I doubt, the documentation on the jersey Topps bought was fake. It is not difficult for them to buy game used jerseys especially of current players just have that player put it on. It is not a "wow that's a pretty card" thing, people are buying them taking into account that if this proved to be a major fraud there would be MAJOR jail time. Think about all of Topps' employees, this stuff would get out, they do make mistakes, yes. They produce SO many jersey cards of course some are going to be misplaced in others'. That's a given

In terms of the wording the Topps Tribute World Series cards, multiple collectors were advertising the Ruth bat and Cobb jerseys and things like that as being USED IN the world series just because it was a world series tribute card. The wording is merely to protect things like this. Like a rookie review jersey isn't necessarily worn rookie year, stuff like that. Some collectors are more brainless than Topps.

Your timeline is off is the reason why. Clemente was dead in 1972, the tag on that patch card wasn't used until 1974. Unless Clemente owned a time machine, went into the future had Wilson make a Jersey for him with that type of tag and brought it back into the past and used it during his final season...........yeah no chance.

Thank you, after reading through the thread post by post I refuse to believe that anyone with general baseball knowledge doesn't know Clemente died shortly after the 1972 season. This is the first post where someone adressed that. Even if there was a year trial before the 74 tag switch, he still in no way could have worn a jersey after 1972 because he had already passed on.

I said on page 1 that Clemente's last season was in 1972.

I didn't think I needed to tell baseball collectors that Roberto Clemente died... :lol: :lol:

 

[homerun28aa]

I obviously know when Clemente died, why don't you guys think Topps knows as much info as you do? You don't think Topps can do a simple search for tag patches or something like that? There could be many explanations, considering Clemente was a major leaguer and a star they could have made him a jersey a couple years ago that was released later for everyone else, there are numerous explanations. You guys are saying Topps is risking the MAJOR jail time that comes along with having no authentic game used items?

And for the person who said people buy game used because they're "pretty". No one is buying a $300 Babe Ruth game used jersey because they think it's "pretty" or he's "pretty".

How can anyone blame Topps for their language on their cards seriously of course they're gonna cover their ass should they put zero disclaimers and get sued left and right

 

[Musial Collector]

If you "obviously know when Clemente died" then why did you ask such a foolish question then?

To be honest, they way you wrote it and the way it reads is you are asking why is it not possible that Clemente didnt wear a jersey after 1974.

Really, read it a few times.

I obviously know when Clemente died, why don't you guys think Topps knows as much info as you do? You don't think Topps can do a simple search for tag patches or something like that? There could be many explanations, considering Clemente was a major leaguer and a star they could have made him a jersey a couple years ago that was released later for everyone else, there are numerous explanations. You guys are saying Topps is risking the MAJOR jail time that comes along with having no authentic game used items?

homerun28aa wrote:
I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year?

 

[A_Pharis]

I do have to chuckle at the notion of a company switching tags "early for a star player".

 

[ChasHawk]

 

[Sjrmn91]

If you "obviously know when Clemente died" then why did you ask such a foolish question then?

To be honest, they way you wrote it and the way it reads is you are asking why is it not possible that Clemente didnt wear a jersey after 1974.

Really, read it a few times.

I obviously know when Clemente died, why don't you guys think Topps knows as much info as you do? You don't think Topps can do a simple search for tag patches or something like that? There could be many explanations, considering Clemente was a major leaguer and a star they could have made him a jersey a couple years ago that was released later for everyone else, there are numerous explanations. You guys are saying Topps is risking the MAJOR jail time that comes along with having no authentic game used items?

homerun28aa wrote:
I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year?

::facepalm:: ::facepalm::

 

[homerun28aa]

If you "obviously know when Clemente died" then why did you ask such a foolish question then?

To be honest, they way you wrote it and the way it reads is you are asking why is it not possible that Clemente didnt wear a jersey after 1974.

Really, read it a few times.

I obviously know when Clemente died, why don't you guys think Topps knows as much info as you do? You don't think Topps can do a simple search for tag patches or something like that? There could be many explanations, considering Clemente was a major leaguer and a star they could have made him a jersey a couple years ago that was released later for everyone else, there are numerous explanations. You guys are saying Topps is risking the MAJOR jail time that comes along with having no authentic game used items?

homerun28aa wrote:
I doubt it's fake why is there NO chance that Clemente wore a jersey a year or so later that was made from a previous year?

::facepalm:: ::facepalm::

:benson: :benson: :benson:

 

[ChasHawk]

He just doesn't seem to get that the tag on that card was made after Clemente died...smdh

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

Wow Thats a nice card. Here a couple of quotes from Kingjammy24 (The person who did the research for tagging) .


This is in regaurds to a Schmidt gamer tag with almost the same issue as this Clemente:

Just so people don't think I concoct those tagging primers while I'm inebriated, see the image below for numerous examples of 1988-89 style Rawlings tags all with a 1989 flag tag. While I admit I could always be wrong with the years, I do put a good amount of work into them and only decide on a year after I've seen an overwhelming amount of evidence.
I have seen less than 5 1990-91 style Rawlings tags with 1989 flag tags. They have always been on superstar jerseys - Schmidt, Griffey, Ripken, etc. The last one was on a Royals Bo Jackson jersey that sold for
over $1800. I've never seen one on a common player. Speaking of which, take a look at the $110 Steve Jeltz 1989 Philles jersey below. It shows the correct 1988-89 era Rawlings tag. Why, in 1989, did Steve Jeltz get an older tag while the Vintage Authentics Mike Schmidt got a new tag? (And why is Jeltz not strip-tagged with a name?)



This is the quote on the Wilson Tags:

A short primer on Wilson tagging for MLB jerseys - late 60's to late 90's.
**NOTE: the image/primer/information below does NOT apply jerseys that have been tagged in the neck. Wilson neck tagging can often differ from Wilson body tagging during the same year. EG: Toronto Blue Jays tagging during the early-mid 90's. The information below has been collected and cross-referenced against itself from various unrelated sources. Although great effort has been made to get the transitional years exact, they may be off by 1. Also, given that some teams seem to recycle jerseys for years, it would not be surprising to see a circa 1984 Wilson tagging on a jersey that has been year tagged as 1989.



Its conceivable that Kingjammy24 could be off in these years. He mentions he could be off by 1 year but then again he may be off 2 or 3 years. Also is the Wilson Tag in the pic he shows a Neck tag or body tag in which jammy says it could differ?
By the way I love that Kingjammy24 did all this research as I use those 2 links for my own reference but even he admits there may be mistakes with his research. If could be that the Pirates or NL used the 1974 - 77 Tagging in earlier years but I cannot confirm this. I dont know what to think of the Clemente Tag other than from the pic it looks worn and of the 70s but I dont have the card in front of me to make a better assement.

On a funnier note maybe one of Clemente's family members threw the first pitch of the 1974 season (If kingjammys years are correct) and wore a jersey with that tagging, because they have the same blood its almost like Clemente wore it himself

 

[Sjrmn91]

Okay, here's a timeline...

-6 million years ago: Big Bang
-2000 BC: Mayan Empire Established
-0 BC: Christ Born
- 33 AD: Christ dies
- 1776 AD: Declaration of Independence signed
- 1812 AD: War of 1812 Begins
- 1912 AD: Titanic Sinks
- 1945 AD: World War II ends
- 1955 AD: Roberto Clemente rookie season
- 1972 AD: Roberto Clemente dies
- 1974 AD: Patch from card in question was first used on Major League Baseball jerseys.

So from the timeline, we can deduce that the War of 1812 started 100 years before the Titanic sank AND it is physically impossible for Clemente to have worn the jersey containing the patch on the card unless someone dug up his grave and placed said jersey on the rotting corpse of Clemente.

NOW YOU KNOOOOOW!

 

[homerun28aa]

He just doesn't seem to get that the tag on that card was made after Clemente died...smdh

Oh really I don't get that? What research have you done? Any? Or are you just mooching off the pictures George provided? Has there ever been instances of tags from years generally released in the future being on jerseys worn before the year of their official release? You have absolutely no idea whether or not that's real literally none and you're just speculating off a single opinion on the years the tags were introduced.