Who was the greatest Post-War pitcher?

[Guest]

If I found myself on the beach playing chess with the Grim Reaper, and he told me I would live or die based on the outcome of one single game, I'm giving the ball to Bob Gibson and living a long and happy life.

If I had to compare Gibson to someone in terms of competitiveness I can think of only one man: Ty Cobb. Gibson is the epitome of a competitor. He didn't go out there and smile and do his best and thank God. He went out there with a single-minded determination to win, and if you were on the other team he'd throw hard and inside and if someone got hurt, he would shrug and say "that's what they get for crowding MY plate." He is the ultimate big game pitcher.

However, because of his ruthlessness on the field, he did not endear himself to many fans (outside of St. Louis) or the media and therefore does not have the benefit of a strong pro-Gibson national public relations campaign. Let me asure you, there is no one more likely to go out there and win a game other than Gibson, and the only man on this list that would throw at a batter's head and risk killing them to get you that win.

And let me re-state an earlier point. Because of Bob Gibson major league baseball forever altered the dimensions of the pitcher's mound to compensate for his dominance.

Let me say that again. Because of Bob Gibson the league changed the conditions of the field.

One more time. Because of Bob Gibson the league changed the conditions of the field.

How sick is that "stat"? There's nothing you can compare it to.

 

[gracecollector]

Satchel Paige. I know, his best years are pre-war, but even so.

 

[hofautos]

^^^ If entire career is to be judged and not just the prime years, Seaver would get the NOD over Pedro for me also.
His overall career effectiveness and accomplishments beats Pedro.

When you look at stats that don't favor pitchers who pitched in more games then Pedro trumps Seaver in all stats.

Pedro was a more effective pitcher over less seasons.


It's ridiculous to discredit Pedros accomplishments just because he did not pitch as long as other pitchers did. Is 18 seasons not considered a full career as it is??

Really?

Career ERA: Seaver 2.86, Pedro 2.93

REALLY?

Career ERA+: Seaver 128, Pedro 154

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ERA+ and ERA are different stats.

Also Seaver threw nearly 2000 more innings than Pedro. That is approximately 8-9 seasons worth of innings. If you were going to have a guy with your franchise for his whole career, would you want those 2000 innings? That is why Seaver is better than Pedro.

After looking a little deeper, I may actually give my nod to seaver.
His prime war values are better than Pedro's, and the biggest difference is what he was still able to accomplish after 10 years (and with more ip/season!)
Also, since Scotty likes "consecutive" for some reason, Seaver's best 10 years are also consecutive!

I still think i would take Gibson in his prime, but seaver for his career, and both over Pedro either for prime or career.....but i really haven't started digging deep yet.

 

[scotty21690]

ERA+ compares ERAs to their respective years they pitched.

Therefore Seavers lower career ERA would have been higher than Pedros if he pitched in the 90s/2000s. Pedro had to pitch against the Griffeys, Arods, the roiders, etc....outs are a lot tougher to come by in the steroid era. Not to mention Pedro pitched in the AL East and he had his best season the year the Yankees won the WS.

 

[hofautos]

ERA+ compares ERAs to their respective years they pitched.

Therefore Seavers lower career ERA would have been higher than Pedros if he pitched in the 90s/2000s. Pedro had to pitch against the Griffeys, Arods, the roiders, etc....outs are a lot tougher to come by in the steroid era. Not to mention Pedro pitched in the AL East and he had his best season the year the Yankees won the WS.

WAR calculates adjustments for parks and eras, and still shows both Seaver and Gibson ahead in each of their prime years over Pedro.

 

[shayscards79]

Maddux

 

[Guest]

ERA+ compares ERAs to their respective years they pitched.

Therefore Seavers lower career ERA would have been higher than Pedros if he pitched in the 90s/2000s. Pedro had to pitch against the Griffeys, Arods, the roiders, etc....outs are a lot tougher to come by in the steroid era. Not to mention Pedro pitched in the AL East and he had his best season the year the Yankees won the WS.

Yeah, because Bob Gibson only had to pitch to....
Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Lou Brock, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, etc.

Not to mention Mantle in the '64 Series, Yastrzemski in the '67 Series, etc.

Yeah. I can see why people think Bob Gibson didn't have to face any tough hitters...

 

[carrsallstars]

For me personally it's between Pedro and Maddux. i saw Randy Johnson dominate in fenway and he had the most imposing mound presence of any pitcher I've ever seen. All I can remember about Tom Seaver was "why are they making such a big deal out of this guy?" as he threw for the Red Sox in 86. Which I know now is a shame. Gibson is the best of these guys in terms of playoff stats.

But here's one stat I gleaned off of Scotty's 7 year comparison post a ways back:

___________BB HBP Ratio
Pedro______315 70 4.5
Koufax_____512 14 36.6
Gibson_____527 39 13.5
Clemens____486 48 10.1


Ha ha. Yeah my vote is for Pedro. He was THE man on the mound through an era when hitters ruled.

I can recall my Mom calling me on a Sunday morning one time... I was living in Philadelphia...and I answered the phone just outside of Baltimore. "Are you going to church this morning she asked?". I said "Yes, I am going to see Father Pedro." (He was pitching at Camden Yards at 1:00) Oh, OK! My Mom said, seemingly admitting than that was much better than going to church! EDIT: I thought surely I would exaggerate Pedro's performance from that game but I just double checked and his line was 9 IP, 2 H, 0R, and 15K's. The funny thing was it didn't seem that remarkable at the time.

 

[James52411]

ERA+ compares ERAs to their respective years they pitched.

Therefore Seavers lower career ERA would have been higher than Pedros if he pitched in the 90s/2000s. Pedro had to pitch against the Griffeys, Arods, the roiders, etc....outs are a lot tougher to come by in the steroid era. Not to mention Pedro pitched in the AL East and he had his best season the year the Yankees won the WS.

Yeah, because Bob Gibson only had to pitch to....
Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Roberto Clemente, Ernie Banks, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Lou Brock, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, etc.

Not to mention Mantle and Berra in the '64 Series, Yastrzemski in the '67 Series, etc.

Yeah. I can see why people think Bob Gibson didn't have to face any tough hitters...

If I had to pick one pitcher to win a World Series game 7, it is Bob Gibson. I go with Seaver on this question because I think he has the best combination of dominance and longevity, but Gibson was undoubtedly a total stud.

 

[hofautos]

All I can remember about Tom Seaver was "why are they making such a big deal out of this guy?" as he threw for the Red Sox in 86. )

Watching Seaver in 86, of course you didn't get it.

 

[hofautos]

___________BB HBP Ratio
Pedro______315 70 4.5
Koufax_____512 14 36.6
Gibson_____527 39 13.5
Clemens____486 48 10.1

What did you take from that? Is innings pitched calculated in there? Where is maddux? What exactly did you gain from that? That was your tell-all?
Maddux BB/9IP = 1.8
Pedro BB/9IP= 2.4

And maddux had a ton more innings.

 

[lonesomeagle1]

You're all wrong. The Chairman of the board, Whitey Ford could outpitch them all

Flame away....

 

[carrsallstars]

All I can remember about Tom Seaver was "why are they making such a big deal out of this guy?" as he threw for the Red Sox in 86. )

Watching Seaver in 86, of course you didn't get it.

Yeah, that's what I said. That's why I said it:

All I can remember about Tom Seaver was "why are they making such a big deal out of this guy?" as he threw for the Red Sox in 86. Which I know now is a shame. )

 

[carrsallstars]

___________BB HBP Ratio
Pedro______315 70 4.5
Koufax_____512 14 36.6
Gibson_____527 39 13.5
Clemens____486 48 10.1

What did you take from that? Is innings pitched calculated in there? Where is maddux? What exactly did you gain from that? That was your tell-all?
Maddux BB/9IP = 1.8
Pedro BB/9IP= 2.4

And maddux had a ton more innings.

Standardizing that by innings pitched was not the point. The point was that Pedro had better control than Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens. The point was that he hit a lot more batters. And that he hit them on purpose. And I liked that about him.

Maddux did actually hit a lot of batters despite his pinpoint control. But he would do something like hit someone in the a$$ with a changeup or a slider on the first just to save himself the extra pitches of an intentional walk. Likely because he felt he could get the next batter to hit into a double play on the third pitch or because he knew he could get the next two guys out and he wanted the opposing pitcher to lead off the next inning or something. So unless anyone has a story about Maddux intimidating people with HBP I don't see a reason to add him to that little stat, no.

 

[hofautos]

___________BB HBP Ratio
Pedro______315 70 4.5
Koufax_____512 14 36.6
Gibson_____527 39 13.5
Clemens____486 48 10.1

What did you take from that? Is innings pitched calculated in there? Where is maddux? What exactly did you gain from that? That was your tell-all?
Maddux BB/9IP = 1.8
Pedro BB/9IP= 2.4

And maddux had a ton more innings.

Standardizing that by innings pitched was not the point. The point was that Pedro had better control than Koufax, Gibson, and Clemens. The point was that he hit a lot more batters. And that he hit them on purpose. And I liked that about him.

Maddux did actually hit a lot of batters despite his pinpoint control. But he would do something like hit someone in the a$$ with a changeup or a slider on the first just to save himself the extra pitches of an intentional walk. Likely because he felt he could get the next batter to hit into a double play on the third pitch or because he knew he could get the next two guys out and he wanted the opposing pitcher to lead off the next inning or something. So unless anyone has a story about Maddux intimidating people with HBP I don't see a reason to add him to that little stat, no.

Oh, ok...i didn't catch your drift..i am slow (grin)...I thought you were pointing out low BB...yea everyone likes watching a pitcher come inside

 

[Moonlight Graham]

2 very good pitchers not mentioned (or seldom) are Juan Marichal and Jim Bunning. Bunning pitched for average teams for most of his career, and still fashioned 40 shutouts and 2 perfect games.

Marichal was a stud. 52 shutouts. Won 20+ 6 times.

Since I grew into a baseball fan in the 60's, naturally I'm biased... Bob Gibson. He was as mean as rumored.

Single season records? Ron Guidry and Steve Carlton. Nobody will ever equal the record he put up in 1972... 27-10 on a team that posted a 59-97 record...

Still waiting for HOFAuto's opinion (nobody will guess it) ... has it been guessed yet?

 

[hofautos]

2 very good pitchers not mentioned (or seldom) are Juan Marichal and Jim Bunning. Bunning pitched for average teams for most of his career, and still fashioned 40 shutouts and 2 perfect games.

Marichal was a stud. 52 shutouts. Won 20+ 6 times.

Since I grew into a baseball fan in the 60's, naturally I'm biased... Bob Gibson. He was as mean as rumored.

Single season records? Ron Guidry and Steve Carlton. Nobody will ever equal the record he put up in 1972... 27-10 on a team that posted a 59-97 record...

Still waiting for HOFAuto's opinion (nobody will guess it) ... has it been guessed yet?

THe answer was that I considered them all the greatest...greatest in their own way. I really was just looking for someone to say "great on what basis".

Yes, I was happy to see that WAR pushed Marichal up the ladder from where he was on the HOF Monitor, and Carlton, not sure why i left him out. His numbers are great, and would be among the caliber in this thread.... i think the biggest problem with Carlton is that he pitched well into his declining years, and so people kind of lost respect for hte guy in time, but if you look at the majority of his good years (and there were plenty of them)...he would be right alongside this bunch. When i did my greatest pitchers thread, i included him, so his absence in this thread was just on oversight...on my part anyway...

Happy to see some old timers here that can actually talk from experience...cheers!!

 

[elmalo]

Roger Clemens
closely followed by Pedro.

 

[RL24]

There are some real gems in this thread... here is my contribution.


Stephen Strasburg

In his first game he struck out 14 batters. If he played as many games as Nolan Ryan he would have ended up with 10,822 strikeouts. He once struck out 3 hitters in 1 inning. If he pitched as many innings as Ryan, that's 16,158 K's. You can not argue with his greatness.

Seasons are meaningless. Innings are what matter.

Seasons aren't meaningless. Innings totals are skewed by those very seasons.

I don't get it.


seasons / GS
Pedro 18 / 409
Seaver: 20 / 647
Johnson: 22 / 603
Clemens: 24 / 707
Gibson: 17 / 482
Maddux: 23 / 740


Why did Pedro pitch so little? Really, I don't know. It's hard to even count it as 18 seasons... in 1992 he started 1 game, 2007 5 games, 2009 9 games. See why seasons are meaningless?

 

[hofautos]

Roger Clemens
closely followed by Pedro.

+1

Pedro's top 3 seasons can't be beat, but three seasons don't make a pitcher.
Clemens, Gibson, and Seaver beat Pedro. Where pedro had the best 2 seasons, his numbers went down quite a bit....still AS class seasons, but others had more MVP (8 WAR+) class seasons, and they pitched deeper in doing so.

Pedro is great, but could be flip-flopped in rankings with Koufax, Maddux, Carlton and others in their prime based on different criteria.
Clemens, Gibson, and Seaver 5 year, 7 year, 10 year, and careers were all better, and those 3 stand above the rest.