Becoming a hobby superstar

I've been thinking about this and it seems that the only way to really make it to the upper echelon of hobby superstars is to do so in your first couple of seasons. Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors. On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1, and while they have substantial followings, it's nothing like the first list of guys.

The only exceptions I can think of are all homerun/steroid related in Bonds, McGwire and Sosa.

Thoughts?

Topnotchsy said:

I've been thinking about this and it seems that the only way to really make it to the upper echelon of hobby superstars is to do so in your first couple of seasons. Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors. On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1, and while they have substantial followings, it's nothing like the first list of guys.

The only exceptions I can think of are all homerun/steroid related in Bonds, McGwire and Sosa.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

well griffey and pujols are the best of their decades and the other 2 are big market.. Manny seems to get a nice amount of love, but youre right... Vlad is underrated. Im wondering if A. Gonzalez will turn out like him.

i agree

There are any number of variables to the reason for success. It could be as simple as despite their heritage Jeter, Arod, Griffey and Pujols are more American seeming whereas Vlad is a Dominican that happens to player American baseball.

It could be based on their team. Jeter played for the Yankees and Pujols the Cardinals which at the time was on a resurgence so to speak and could be seen as that "missing piece" with Big Mac and him they went from 4th to 2nd and then 1st. Arod came in with a hot Seatle team. Vlad played for Montreal...ugh he was then traded to the Angels which until recently no one really cared about them.

You could also look at overall success. Jeter got major run for being the best clutch player, Arod the best hitting short stop ever, Griffey one of the best atheletes ever, Pujols the best power hitter ever. All have gone far and above their peers. Vlad is a great player, but he's never been that huge. Sure he has an MVP, but he doesn't have 50 homeruns or some amazing number like that.

Many of these players were part of a group who then exceeded them. Jeter was one of the Yankees who blew past his teammates in ability. Pujols was part of the power hitting duo in St. Louis till he took over for the captain. Jeter was part of the Seatle guys Griffey, Dan Wilson, Jay Buhner, Edgar Martinez ect and then went on to be part of that great infield in Texas and has left them behind. Vlad has really been part of no "group" so he has no one to exceed. He's a great hitter but always got shown up by guys like Jim Edmond and his catches or the Angels' various middle infielders who can't hit but are all so scrappy.

Topnotchsy said:

Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors.
On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1

Click to expand...

Manny and Guerrero were both hugely touted prospects, and had excellent shortened rookie and first full seasons.
They were certainly recognized in the hobby, in Beckett and the media, from day 1.
But you're correct, they didn't reach Griffey, A-Rod, Jeter levels, most likely because of their teams, Indians and Expos.

Man when I read the title I thought you meant something like wearing a cape while collecting or karate chopping 17 PSA slabs in half.

Disclaimer...I'm not being Racist.

It helps when the players can speak English fluently. Its easier to be marketed via commercial.

Austin said:

Topnotchsy said:

Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors.
On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1

Click to expand...

Manny and Guerrero were both hugely touted prospects, and had excellent shortened rookie and first full seasons.
They were certainly recognized in the hobby, in Beckett and the media, from day 1.
But you're correct, they didn't reach Griffey, A-Rod, Jeter levels, most likely because of their teams, Indians and Expos.

Click to expand...

There's no good way to explain it. Manny was on the Red Sox, so why didn't he ever reach the level of popularity? Longoria is on the Rays and there's reason to believe he could be the next big hobby star. Chipper Jones played on Atlanta teams that made the Playoffs every season yet he was never at the same level of stardom as the names mentioned, adn playing in Seattle should have in theory hurt Arod and Griffey....

Topnotchsy said:

Austin said:

Topnotchsy said:

Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors.
On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1

Click to expand...

Manny and Guerrero were both hugely touted prospects, and had excellent shortened rookie and first full seasons.
They were certainly recognized in the hobby, in Beckett and the media, from day 1.
But you're correct, they didn't reach Griffey, A-Rod, Jeter levels, most likely because of their teams, Indians and Expos.

Click to expand...

There's no good way to explain it. Manny was on the Red Sox, so why didn't he ever reach the level of popularity? Longoria is on the Rays and there's reason to believe he could be the next big hobby star. Chipper Jones played on Atlanta teams that made the Playoffs every season yet he was never at the same level of stardom as the names mentioned, adn playing in Seattle should have in theory hurt Arod and Griffey....

Click to expand...

Chipper was never recognized as being THE best on his team. Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine were always seen as the gems of the team and then there was Andruw Jones. He also didn't lead the league in anything until 2007. If you're wanting run for being one of the best players in baseball it helps to actually be the best player in baseball.

Manny was always an enigma in Red Sox. It was love him or hate him. He was aloof and hard to really love completely. One day he could be the hero and the next blow it completely.

Also, why would playing in Seattle hurt them? Seattle was highly successful with Arod specifically. His first full season they finished 1st and went to the playoffs for the first time in baseball history. They also went to the playoffs 3 more times during his time which encompasses the only times Seattle went to the playoffs.

Frow said:

Chipper was never recognized as being THE best on his team. Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine were always seen as the gems of the team and then there was Andruw Jones. He also didn't lead the league in anything until 2007. If you're wanting run for being one of the best players in baseball it helps to actually be the best player in baseball.

Manny was always an enigma in Red Sox. It was love him or hate him. He was aloof and hard to really love completely. One day he could be the hero and the next blow it completely.

Also, why would playing in Seattle hurt them? Seattle was highly successful with Arod specifically. His first full season they finished 1st and went to the playoffs for the first time in baseball history. They also went to the playoffs 3 more times during his time which encompasses the only times Seattle went to the playoffs.

Click to expand...

I hear what your saying about Chipper, but what about Griffey and Arod in Seattle. If Chipper could get overshadowed by pitchers, shouldn't one of them have been overshadowed by the other?

As far as Seattle helping Griffey and/or Arod because they played well, what about all the4 guys in Anaheim who get no hobby attention. How about the guys in Oakland all those years like Giambi and Tejada? Doing well rarely if ever translates into much more attention.

The fact is that the one common denominator between all the big stars is the fact that they became "larger than life" in their first season or two. Every single one of them outside of those involved in steroids/homerun record was a hobby superstar from his first days in the league.

Topnotchsy said:

Frow said:

Chipper was never recognized as being THE best on his team. Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine were always seen as the gems of the team and then there was Andruw Jones. He also didn't lead the league in anything until 2007. If you're wanting run for being one of the best players in baseball it helps to actually be the best player in baseball.

Manny was always an enigma in Red Sox. It was love him or hate him. He was aloof and hard to really love completely. One day he could be the hero and the next blow it completely.

Also, why would playing in Seattle hurt them? Seattle was highly successful with Arod specifically. His first full season they finished 1st and went to the playoffs for the first time in baseball history. They also went to the playoffs 3 more times during his time which encompasses the only times Seattle went to the playoffs.

Click to expand...

I hear what your saying about Chipper, but what about Griffey and Arod in Seattle. If Chipper could get overshadowed by pitchers, shouldn't one of them have been overshadowed by the other?

As far as Seattle helping Griffey and/or Arod because they played well, what about all the4 guys in Anaheim who get no hobby attention. How about the guys in Oakland all those years like Giambi and Tejada? Doing well rarely if ever translates into much more attention.

The fact is that the one common denominator between all the big stars is the fact that they became "larger than life" in their first season or two. Every single one of them outside of those involved in steroids/homerun record was a hobby superstar from his first days in the league.

Click to expand...

yeah, Seattle was loaded with superstars... there was Griffey, A-rod, Randy Johnson, Buhner, and most importantly.. EDGAR MARTINEZ!
somehow that group of added to each other instead of taken away.

Topnotchsy said:

Austin said:

Topnotchsy said:

Looking at all the biggest names Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Jeter, Pujols etc. all seem to have become huge practically from the day they made the majors.
On the flip side you have guys like Manny, Guerrero etc. that were not that recognized in the hobby from day 1

Click to expand...

Manny and Guerrero were both hugely touted prospects, and had excellent shortened rookie and first full seasons.
They were certainly recognized in the hobby, in Beckett and the media, from day 1.
But you're correct, they didn't reach Griffey, A-Rod, Jeter levels, most likely because of their teams, Indians and Expos.

Click to expand...

There's no good way to explain it. Manny was on the Red Sox, so why didn't he ever reach the level of popularity? Longoria is on the Rays and there's reason to believe he could be the next big hobby star. Chipper Jones played on Atlanta teams that made the Playoffs every season yet he was never at the same level of stardom as the names mentioned, adn playing in Seattle should have in theory hurt Arod and Griffey....

Click to expand...

Manny was always #2 or #3 in Boston Popularity behind Pedro, Nomar, and Ortiz. That is why for him.

Ken Griffey Jr. and A-Rod had so much hype from the amateur days and were expected to be phenoms from their first days as professionals and become superstars for a then-lagging Seattle franchise.

No matter which team drafted them, people were going to be interested in what they did.

I assume this will be the case with Stephen Strasburg in Washington and the case with Bryce Harper with the team that drafts and may sign him.

With Chipper, was eased into an already successful franchise and was seen as a complimentary player to the other team stars - who were still playing at a high level.

He wasn't exactly looked upon as a player who was going to be the organization's best position player over the course of his career.

I think Chipper's moment as a hobby superstar was in 1999, which was 10 years ago.

Topnotchsy said:

Frow said:

Chipper was never recognized as being THE best on his team. Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine were always seen as the gems of the team and then there was Andruw Jones. He also didn't lead the league in anything until 2007. If you're wanting run for being one of the best players in baseball it helps to actually be the best player in baseball.

Manny was always an enigma in Red Sox. It was love him or hate him. He was aloof and hard to really love completely. One day he could be the hero and the next blow it completely.

Also, why would playing in Seattle hurt them? Seattle was highly successful with Arod specifically. His first full season they finished 1st and went to the playoffs for the first time in baseball history. They also went to the playoffs 3 more times during his time which encompasses the only times Seattle went to the playoffs.

Click to expand...

I hear what your saying about Chipper, but what about Griffey and Arod in Seattle. If Chipper could get overshadowed by pitchers, shouldn't one of them have been overshadowed by the other?

As far as Seattle helping Griffey and/or Arod because they played well, what about all the4 guys in Anaheim who get no hobby attention. How about the guys in Oakland all those years like Giambi and Tejada? Doing well rarely if ever translates into much more attention.

The fact is that the one common denominator between all the big stars is the fact that they became "larger than life" in their first season or two. Every single one of them outside of those involved in steroids/homerun record was a hobby superstar from his first days in the league.

Click to expand...

Lars said:

Ken Griffey Jr. and A-Rod had so much hype from the amateur days and were expected to be phenoms from their first days as professionals and become superstars for a then-lagging Seattle franchise.

No matter which team drafted them, people were going to be interested in what they did.

I assume this will be the case with Stephen Strasburg in Washington and the case with Bryce Harper with the team that drafts and may sign him.

With Chipper, was eased into an already successful franchise and was seen as a complimentary player to the other team stars - who were still playing at a high level.

He wasn't exactly looked upon as a player who was going to be the organization's best position player over the course of his career.

I think Chipper's moment as a hobby superstar was in 1999, which was 10 years ago.

Click to expand...

I think that essentially we are agreeing here that the only way for a player to be a true hobby superstar is to be one from the beginning either through being hyped since diapers (like Griffey and Arod) or immediately after making the Bigs (like Pujols.) Otherwise, no matter the accomplishments the player will be left as a great player whose cards may peak at moments, but never reach the levels of the biggest names in the sport.

It's the mom and grandma factor. Griffey was bigger than baseball. He was the Kid. He was the Swingman (baseball players didn't have signature shoes!). My mother loved him because she loved Griffey Sr. from the Big Red Machine. Grandma's loved him for his kid like smile more than his play. Lets face it Griffey was the total package and blueprint for hobby stardom. I don't think anyone else even comes close not even Pujols or A-Rod. Remember in 2001 Ichiro was the hobby star not Albert. I know you might laugh but Seattle's uniforms were the best in the early 90's. Those hats that were aqua with the compass were the best in baseball. Seatlle just oozed coolness in the early 90's and Griffey was the reason.

You must have missed the absolutely INSANE prices his stuff was getting last year then. Nice items of his still sell well, even w/ his current slump.

Lars said:

Ken Griffey Jr. and A-Rod had so much hype from the amateur days and were expected to be phenoms from their first days as professionals and become superstars for a then-lagging Seattle franchise.

No matter which team drafted them, people were going to be interested in what they did.

I assume this will be the case with Stephen Strasburg in Washington and the case with Bryce Harper with the team that drafts and may sign him.

With Chipper, was eased into an already successful franchise and was seen as a complimentary player to the other team stars - who were still playing at a high level.

He wasn't exactly looked upon as a player who was going to be the organization's best position player over the course of his career.

I think Chipper's moment as a hobby superstar was in 1999, which was 10 years ago.

Topnotchsy said:

Frow said:

Chipper was never recognized as being THE best on his team. Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine were always seen as the gems of the team and then there was Andruw Jones. He also didn't lead the league in anything until 2007. If you're wanting run for being one of the best players in baseball it helps to actually be the best player in baseball.

Manny was always an enigma in Red Sox. It was love him or hate him. He was aloof and hard to really love completely. One day he could be the hero and the next blow it completely.

Also, why would playing in Seattle hurt them? Seattle was highly successful with Arod specifically. His first full season they finished 1st and went to the playoffs for the first time in baseball history. They also went to the playoffs 3 more times during his time which encompasses the only times Seattle went to the playoffs.

Click to expand...

I hear what your saying about Chipper, but what about Griffey and Arod in Seattle. If Chipper could get overshadowed by pitchers, shouldn't one of them have been overshadowed by the other?

As far as Seattle helping Griffey and/or Arod because they played well, what about all the4 guys in Anaheim who get no hobby attention. How about the guys in Oakland all those years like Giambi and Tejada? Doing well rarely if ever translates into much more attention.

The fact is that the one common denominator between all the big stars is the fact that they became "larger than life" in their first season or two. Every single one of them outside of those involved in steroids/homerun record was a hobby superstar from his first days in the league.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frow said:

It could be as simple as despite their heritage Arod and Pujols are more American

Click to expand...

How so? :lol:

"It's the mom and grandma factor. Griffey was bigger than baseball."

As popular as Griffey was in the 90s, he was never bigger than the game. He was never at the level of popularity that Jordan was in basketball or Wayne Gretzky in hockey; those two were bigger than their sport.

Actually one of the first true hobby superstar - because baseball cards as a mainstream hobby started in the mid-80s - would be Don Mattingly. The Hitman is a bit forgotten because he didn't have a HOF career. Check the amount coverage he got from the hobby magazines from 84 to 87, pretty much every Mattingly card was worth a huge premium.

George K said:

"It's the mom and grandma factor. Griffey was bigger than baseball."

As popular as Griffey was in the 90s, he was never bigger than the game. He was never at the level of popularity that Jordan was in basketball or Wayne Gretzky in hockey; those two were bigger than their sport.
Actually one of the first true hobby superstar - because baseball cards as a mainstream hobby started in the mid-80s - would be Don Mattingly. The Hitman is a bit forgotten because he didn't have a HOF career. Check the amount coverage he got from the hobby magazines from 84 to 87, pretty much every Mattingly card was worth a huge premium.

Click to expand...

He had his own videogame and it actually had a sequal. The guy had his own Nike shoe (Not just baseball spikes) when basically Jordan was the only other to do so. He was the hope that an 18 year old kid could go straight to the majors and last.

89 Upper Deck?

Well, I lived that whole period... Griffey was big, but not bigger than the sport.