Anothers shop owners POV and comments about posts...

Hey guys how are you? As many of you know I am a LCS owner. I wanted to start a thread that is geared toward talking about facts, and POSITIVE criticism and ways we CAN make a difference. I am kindly asking for no derogatory comments about other members or myself, and let's try to speak intelligently rather than bash other members.

One of the things I really like about this board in particular is that as a store owner, I keep my ear to the ground and listen to the opinions of many--we get the good, bad and ugly about products. I am going to try to stick to facts for the majority of the post and not opinions, but at the end I have one person to thank because it was probably the BEST post I ever read in regard to criticism.

There are definitely two GENERAL groups of people involved in the hobby---people on the sell side (dealers, store owners, manufactures, distributors, sub distributors, etc) and collectors/buyers. I have so many great memories going to the LCS with my father buying boxes, putting sets together, going to the local shows to finish our sets, trading with friends. It was also affordable then---a $5 pack when SP Authentic first came out was earth shattering, now that's the average cost. With that being said this is not a hobby where 8-15 year old kids can come in and start to build a good collection. The word good is a relative term though---remember in the 1990s a "good collection" consisted of Ripken rookies, bonds RCs, 70s stuff, etc. so please take that term relative to the times we're in. With the advent of ebay, sites like these, and other online venues, show traffic and store traffic are down. The main reason is there are too many people who are buying to try and make a profit. We see everyday on sites like these, "paying below ebay, or paying ebay minus fees." Today, everyone wants to be on the sale side and get in at the cheapest price possible. So to Schmidtfan's point, yes, this is a big business and the number of people who collect just for the sake of being involved in something they love are not as prevalent as in years past.

This is the only industry in the world that has people selling stuff on ebay for 30% below what they paid the DAY A PRODUCT ISSUES--for example, there are two people selling cases for 30%-50% below what they paid and as a result others follow suit. Topps only "rolled the presses" on this because THAT IS WHAT WAS ORDERED BY DISTRIBUTORS. Now since Stras got hurt, the economy is getting worse and no one anticipated Stras autos selling for $500 like the 2010 bowman one did, everyone wants to dump and get whatever they can to pay their CC bill. Can you name ONE other INDUSTRY where this nonsense occurs? It results in the killing of a product----when wax prices plummet the prices of the singles go down as well. When wax prices are high or at SRP levels singles are doing well---tell me the last unsigned bowman chrome RC that was getting $30-$40 on ebay ungraded? Yes, it is very much like gambling, but even Eddie Mush wins sometimes---how many winners are there on a case of 2010 topps chrome or bowman chrome? They are WAY TOO FEW and far between. Whether you're a hobbyist/collector, or dealer (store owner/show dealer/ebay seller) we all want better products. Making CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS like about the film on the topps chrome and stuff, or how tough it is to get a good hit in ttt, or some of the other comments mike made about QC at topps are actually all true and if you guys could forget who is typing it you would agree. I really don't think he's trying to be "negative nancy," I really think he's trying to figure out how to fix the problem, or talk to people at topps with valid points about the issues. In any other indistry in the world, if people were selling a manufacturers products at 50% below retail AS SOON AS ITS ISSUED they would be cut off. Topps doesn't do anything to police things like this, or things like this---guys walking around big shows with 3 two rows of red ink topps rookie premier auto sets. There are supposed to be 5 of each card and these guys have 3 two rows full of sets. When stores/collectors get no help from the manufacturers on issues THEY CAN CONTROL, it becomes very very frustrating. Store owners, especially those who go through a lot of wax, face and deal with issues that most of you don't realize or know about everyday and Topps doesn't do anything to correct or fix the problem and THAT is what's frustrating. Blanning you are right---the economy is bad, prices are down and we need to do different things to survive, but we definitely need cooperation from the manufacturers as well. Would YOU, as a business owner, want to see people selling your product out the back door, or selling to other customers at 50% below market price? There are only four reasons tha I can see why people dump at these prices, but I won't get into that since I said myself I want to stay with FACTS.


Some people, like Mike, are trying to discuss his frustrations with the hobby and as a LCS owner. While I think a number of his points are valid and factual I think a lot of you have preconveied notions about him or strongly disagree and will disagree no matter what he says. I did laugh at the post when someone described the old fat guy that runs the LCS and barely lifts his head up when you walk in the store. Yes, those guys definitely still exist but too many people put us good ones in that general category.

Comments were made about we can't make a difference; Topps will never change; its store owners job to educate customers and show them different prducts, and many others. I will guarantee that if anyone has data about how many stores and collectors there were in 1997 its far more than today. For years the hobby has seen great contraction on a number of levels---the amount of stores open, collectors quitting, manufacturers losing licenses and more. What Mike is trying to do is not moan and groan about how bad the hobby is, but get people to realize we can make a difference and maybe think of a constuctive way to reach Topps and voice the opinions he's stated. He did make a lot of valid points and most of them are reasons new people aren't coming into the hobby. When you go to buy a car do you look for the old Ford Pinto, or do you check out the newly designed cars--obviously the newly designed because of the advertising, hype, better look, etc. How likely are you to tell a friend, hey let's go rip Topps Chrome, we have about a 10/50 chance of getting a decent auto since the checklist is so long. On the other hand, how many are willing to recommend 08 draft (18 autos and many are looking good)? The hobby will not expand without more products that customes see value in, and have a chance to hit that homerun.

Now accolades to the person who made the greatest comment I've seen on these boards.

There is a difference between complaining and criticizing weak points of the hobby. Complaining is nothing more than negative whining and moaning. If owners want to criticize the choices made by card manufacturers in the attempts to make the hobby better, that is fine, but most of the complaining you here is counterproductive and owners should never complain to customers. Bigdaddyblue73

Yes guys, we CAN make a difference if enough of us want to let topps know what is going on. I hope this post was informative and will not lead to any bashing, nasty comments, etc. If you're actually interested in learning about how we can PM me. I've talked to plenty of people over the last several weeks and we've been formulating plans and ideas to do so and more input is always good. THanks for reading!

Well said.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

BigAppleJak said:

Well said.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions.

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+1 - I think your best point is that people (who probably didn't buy cases before this year) are selling cheaply just to pay on their CC bill and are willing to dump it and just take the loss and get out of the product.

My thoughts are this is going to weed those people out next year and 2011 will be a much better year for case rippers.

I have made the CC payment argument for a few years now and it's impact on wax and singles sales. Probably ten times in the three months, It is a huge problem and is probably the main source of all the recent whining. Some guy who buys a box or two makes a huge hit, say a red auto of Harper and lists it. He gets 3500 for it and then two more show up and one is from a 20 case ripper and one from a four box guy. Of course the four box guy is gonna put 4500 bin/Bo and see what happens. Well 20 case guy is gonna slit his throat and sell it for 2500, just to make the quick sale and pay his bill for the next monster amount of cases he has coming. All he did was drop the market value on singles and killed wax slightly. They even pre sell singles they don't even have in hand, that's shady and why it's allowed amazes me. I see pre selling wax but cards that may be last minute removals. Prospect singles sales never stay at a constant and this is why, people over extend themselves and when put in a bind sell just to get the money. A MLBP executive stated that prospecting was dying slowly and wouldn't be a major factor in the hobby soon. Topps being am exclusive and overproduction and wax selling at and below cost will kill it. The people buying from the prospectors will be turned off and will call it quits. They will probably wait till the guy has a season under his belt before they buy. Thank god I'm a collector and never got into this aspect of the hobby at all.

LCS have been battling the prices online for years. The manufacturers know that it is a problem. If a pack has a MSRP of $5, it's designed to ensure that the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer all get a cut. When that price falls out of the gate, the retailer takes most of the hit. I remember a manufacturer (maybe Topps) that said they were going to monitor online stores and punish those that were selling boxes below a certain MSRP. Did that ever happen or was it too hard to enforce? It takes more than a few people selling cases at a loss for it to affect the overall price of a product.

As stated before, there are plenty of ways to point out your opinions to manufacturers without complaining to the customers about it.

And for what it counts, comics and magazines are another business where items sell for 25% of value within a short period of time. But their customers generally know this and don't as bent out of shape by it as some card buyers do.

[monitor online stores and punish those that were selling boxes below a certain MSRP. Did that ever happen or was it too hard to enforce?


Panini said that they were going to enforce a sort of pricing minimum on new releases.

Marro----good points, but my post was more geared toward people who dump the product, not the singles, immediately before and after the release. We will always deal with the morons who pride themselves on the theory of "being the cheapest on ebay." We will never get rid of them until they get tired of fighting a losing proposition.

Also, whoever said one person can't control the price of a product, that is false. No retailer or local wholesaler has to dump 50-100 cases of a product. Look at this WCSPORTS on ebay from california. He has lost between 70-150 per case (based on FACTORY cost) on close to 100 cases on chrome ON ebay and thats PRE FEES. There are only three possabilities for someone to be able to do this----1) the product is out the back door so they dont care what they get for it or 2) they are laundering money----illegal operations that buy substantial amounts of product with cash and dont care what its sold for because dirty money is now clean and there is a loss to show or 3) and what I think is most likely---distributors are not allowed to sell on ebay so they have someone with an ebay name dump for them. There is also a very very big, well known online seller whose 50% owner of one of the biggest distributors in the midwest. Distributots sell to DEALERS/STORES ONLY. They take advantage of their business and have a loophole and take advantage of the situation and manufacturers do nothing about it.

Panini has stated they are going to do something about it, and we dont see anything being presold on ebay. Thats a big reason why most of their products never get dumped or fall below cost. Now could they make a better product----DEFINITELY. But they are doing their part to police the price of product. Look at MAgic cards--wizards of the coast banned sales to ANYONE BUT STORE OWNERS. Consider this----if that happened in our industry,every one of you who buy wax would still buy it, just from a card shop.

And GT, I am not complaining to customers. I simply stated FACTS. Complaining would be talking about how bad I did on a case or something. ITs funny that others found this very informative and factual, and you make a comment that I'm complaining.

clubhouse sports said:

Marro----good points, but my post was more geared toward people who dump the product, not the singles, immediately before and after the release. We will always deal with the morons who pride themselves on the theory of "being the cheapest on ebay." We will never get rid of them until they get tired of fighting a losing proposition.

Also, whoever said one person can't control the price of a product, that is false. No retailer or local wholesaler has to dump 50-100 cases of a product. Look at this WCSPORTS on ebay from california. He has lost between 70-150 per case (based on FACTORY cost) on close to 100 cases on chrome ON ebay and thats PRE FEES. There are only three possabilities for someone to be able to do this----1) the product is out the back door so they dont care what they get for it or 2) they are laundering money----illegal operations that buy substantial amounts of product with cash and dont care what its sold for because dirty money is now clean and there is a loss to show or 3) and what I think is most likely---distributors are not allowed to sell on ebay so they have someone with an ebay name dump for them. There is also a very very big, well known online seller whose 50% owner of one of the biggest distributors in the midwest. Distributots sell to DEALERS/STORES ONLY. They take advantage of their business and have a loophole and take advantage of the situation and manufacturers do nothing about it.

Panini has stated they are going to do something about it, and we dont see anything being presold on ebay. Thats a big reason why most of their products never get dumped or fall below cost. Now could they make a better product----DEFINITELY. But they are doing their part to police the price of product. Look at MAgic cards--wizards of the coast banned sales to ANYONE BUT STORE OWNERS. Consider this----if that happened in our industry,every one of you who buy wax would still buy it, just from a card shop.

And GT, I am not complaining to customers. I simply stated FACTS. Complaining would be talking about how bad I did on a case or something. ITs funny that others found this very informative and factual, and you make a comment that I'm complaining.

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Great post, I know what dist you are talking about, never thought he was "in" with someone but always thought it was odd that I never get limited on pre order quantites.

Back pre ebay, it were the "weekend warriors" (non dealers who got their hands on boxes and only set up at small local shows every week willing to sell them a buck or two over cost) who helped kill box prices.

clubhouse sports said:

Marro----good points, but my post was more geared toward people who dump the product, not the singles, immediately before and after the release. We will always deal with the morons who pride themselves on the theory of "being the cheapest on ebay." We will never get rid of them until they get tired of fighting a losing proposition.

Also, whoever said one person can't control the price of a product, that is false. No retailer or local wholesaler has to dump 50-100 cases of a product. Look at this WCSPORTS on ebay from california. He has lost between 70-150 per case (based on FACTORY cost) on close to 100 cases on chrome ON ebay and thats PRE FEES. There are only three possabilities for someone to be able to do this----1) the product is out the back door so they dont care what they get for it or 2) they are laundering money----illegal operations that buy substantial amounts of product with cash and dont care what its sold for because dirty money is now clean and there is a loss to show or 3) and what I think is most likely---distributors are not allowed to sell on ebay so they have someone with an ebay name dump for them. There is also a very very big, well known online seller whose 50% owner of one of the biggest distributors in the midwest. Distributots sell to DEALERS/STORES ONLY. They take advantage of their business and have a loophole and take advantage of the situation and manufacturers do nothing about it.

Panini has stated they are going to do something about it, and we dont see anything being presold on ebay. Thats a big reason why most of their products never get dumped or fall below cost. Now could they make a better product----DEFINITELY. But they are doing their part to police the price of product. Look at MAgic cards--wizards of the coast banned sales to ANYONE BUT STORE OWNERS. Consider this----if that happened in our industry,every one of you who buy wax would still buy it, just from a card shop.

And GT, I am not complaining to customers. I simply stated FACTS. Complaining would be talking about how bad I did on a case or something. ITs funny that others found this very informative and factual, and you make a comment that I'm complaining.

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I think they are starting out slow. They have flooded the cheap cards everywhere. They are in all the DOLLAR TREE stores everywhere. Base cards. Tons. Now those could be retail plus outs only. Then they may sell hobby to dealer only. The hobby should have all the hits. These Dollar Tree packs are I believe produced without inserts. The packs show no odds. I believe Dollar World and 99cent stores will follow. I think the are trying to get distribution out of the gate and people re-interested in the art of collecting. This will inturn help in the long run.

Clubhouse: What I meant to say was that a few people selling a few cases at a loss wouldn't hurt the product. I was referring to Marro's example of somebody pulling a big value card then dumping a case on ebay. Of course if 100's of cases are being sold at a loss, the market will fall. I am curious to see how Panini controls their product. If they are successful, then all manufacturers should follow. I'm not a dealer or wholesaler and want to get product at the cheapest price, but I also don't want the hobby to suffer from it. I have some very good friends that own shops and want to see them succeed.

mancini, well i can see your point but consider this.....if all/majority of product was sld through shops, there would be (for the most part) one price which in turn would keep the price of singles from each product up. Products that get dumped (in terms of wax prices) have their singles reflect accordingly. So does it matter how cheap you get something when the cards resell like crap on the secondary market from that prodct anyway? But products that have supprt, coincidentally sell very well.

Again, not trying to be a smartass, so I hope you don't take it that way.

THanks for reading.

clubhouse sports said:

mancini, well i can see your point but consider this.....if all/majority of product was sld through shops, there would be (for the most part) one price which in turn would keep the price of singles from each product up. Products that get dumped (in terms of wax prices) have their singles reflect accordingly. So does it matter how cheap you get something when the cards resell like crap on the secondary market from that prodct anyway? But products that have supprt, coincidentally sell very well.

Again, not trying to be a smartass, so I hope you don't take it that way.

THanks for reading.

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No offense taken at all. I totally get what you are saying. I for one am in more favor of a solid MSRP. Maybe it's because I used to work for a very legit hobby shop. It would drive me nuts when a customer found new products elsewhere below MSRP. It's not fair that the one's that suffer are the one's playing by the rules.

clubhouse sports said:

And GT, I am not complaining to customers. I simply stated FACTS. Complaining would be talking about how bad I did on a case or something. ITs funny that others found this very informative and factual, and you make a comment that I'm complaining.

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I wasn't ripping you, I was just advising you to not complain much to customers and even if they get crushed on a case, for instance, be sympathetic, but don't go overboard on ripping the makers, 'cuz eventually it WILL cost you wax customers.

Also, MTG is still available in retail spots, but sells best at hobby spots, especially where the employees embrace it or even follow it. And alot of that is due to Wizards making a big mistake and trying their own stores, which ticked off gaming stores and quickly bombed out anyway.