ANOTHER PATCH FAKER CAUGHT. ALONG WITH HIS ALIAS I.D. TO BUY

[200lbhockeyplayer]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

 

[AUTaxMan]

Reported. Not that it will make any difference.

 

[card_crazy]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...

 

[cgilmo]

[quote="Tick-Tock-Man":506q0zrw]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...[/quote:506q0zrw]


In a court room, I believe they would call that circumstantial evidence.

 

[justinmandawg]

[quote="Tick-Tock-Man":35nxa5o2]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...

In a court room, I believe they would call that circumstantial evidence.[/quote:35nxa5o2]

What if they have the same IP address?

 

[card_crazy]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87221[/url]

 

[Bob Loblaw]

[quote="Tick-Tock-Man":2d30stb5]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...

In a court room, I believe they would call that circumstantial evidence.[/quote:2d30stb5]

With enough time and money, it's all provable.

Subpoena eBay to get the contact ID for each user ID involved.

Set live depositions of each person attached to the IDs.

 

[cgilmo]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87221[/url][/quote:qz7wrtfs]

I think you misunderstand me. I am not doubting your claims. I am not expressing my opinion one way or the other on the matter because I can't. I have to leave that up to you guys.

I am merely stating why the board can't do as some people want in putting up a FCB maintained list of forgeries.

 

[cgilmo]

[quote="card_crazy":9upo6gz9]

[quote="Tick-Tock-Man":9upo6gz9]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...

In a court room, I believe they would call that circumstantial evidence.[/quote:9upo6gz9]

With enough time and money, it's all provable.

Subpoena eBay to get the contact ID for each user ID involved.

Set live depositions of each person attached to the IDs.[/quote:9upo6gz9]

But until you do that, it's all circumstantial right?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

[quote="card_crazy":2trg1c5u]

[quote="Tick-Tock-Man":2trg1c5u]

even if you state in the thread that the person sold a fake patch, but didn't necessarily
make the fake patch, your only stating a fact. you shouldn't be liable for stating a fact.

If you are simply stating fact, and not assuming anything, then you are for the most part correct.

It's easier of course if serial-numbers and signatures are there to verify the accusations as fact, but no matter what...there is no proof that the buyer or seller are the ones doing the faking.

i here you. but i think its funny how EVERY CARD that the "buying account" has purchased is has been sold on the "selling account" with a fake patch.. every card...

In a court room, I believe they would call that circumstantial evidence.

With enough time and money, it's all provable.

Subpoena eBay to get the contact ID for each user ID involved.

Set live depositions of each person attached to the IDs.[/quote:2trg1c5u]

But until you do that, it's all circumstantial right?[/quote:2trg1c5u]

Correct.

Does the preponderance of the evidence show that they're the same person? Maybe. However, the first buyer could have been buying them, and making a set and eventually gave up on the set, went to a card show or store and sold them to a dealer. That dealer could have added the patches sold the lot to the eventual eBay seller for a higher price.

Boom. There's your explanation, and without evidence to prove same, you lose.

Finally, this would NEVER go to court because of jurisdictional issues and because the damages are, for the most part, minimal.

However, the seller could certainly sue the OP and FCB if he can prove damages to his reputation.

There is no doubt that the cards have been tampered. No doubt at all. However, the question of who did it, and if the seller know that they were tampered will forever go unanswered.

 

[card_crazy]

so the fact that he bought a cardinals jersey, a cardinals anniversary patch, a cavs anniversary patch, a lakers anniversary patch, nba logos, all the cards, live in the same state, and all those patches/jerseys made it in to those cards means nothing. WONDERFUL! thanks ::facepalm::
he can try and sue me. and wouldnt win.. that i can promise. and my buddy who is a cop is already investigating him to see if there the same guy. im not worried. not one bit.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

so the fact that he bought a cardinals jersey, a cardinals anniversary patch, a cavs anniversary patch, a lakers anniversary patch, nba logos, all the cards, live in the same state, and all those patches/jerseys made it in to those cards means nothing. WONDERFUL! thanks ::facepalm::
he can try and sue me. and wouldnt win.. that i can promise. and my buddy who is a cop is already investigating him to see if there the same guy. im not worried. not one bit.

I don't think the NBA logos, Cavs, or Lakers patch have anything to do with these cards. Further, it would appear he is a Cardinals' fan and wants to add his own patch. Perhaps he wants to add the Cavs anniversary patch to the NBA Cavs jersey he already owns.

As for the same state, that only lends credence to my story of them being sold in lots locally a few times. Not all sales take place on eBay.

As for whether he would win or not; don't be so sure. Juries and judges do strange things. That being said, there's a strong possibility he IS making these fake cards, so he surely wouldn't want to explain himself and suit would never be brought. Further, you are probably judgment proof, and damages are far too difficult to prove.

 

[clubhouse sports]

Hey guys...good thread and way to catch the faker. Wolverine24, one of the BIGGEST modern card ebay sellers now banned from ebay for fake patches and involvement with a number of other crooks in the hobby; shoelessjoejackson, also involved with wolverine, a known card trimmer and patch faker, has been a BIG BGS account for years and they continue to accept his business; cardboardpimpin, also mentioned in the same article as the above two. eBay knows these others guys are faking patches too but don't care! They're getting paid, so who cares about ethics right? ITS TOTAL BS!

I am a LCS owner near Philadelphia. I have conversations similar to these DAILY whether its regarding patch faking, shill bidding, canceling sales, people putting astronomical BIN and having them hit, and other major issues in the hobby. Most of the RETAIL customers talk about what happens on the retail end like ebay, etc. While most of you buy from online wax dealers (blowout, atlanta, d&A, etc), consider this---in 08 when topps chrome baseball hit, i sold 5 cases by the box the day it hit at 65/box. My customers LOVED the product, and we all build all the chrome auto sets so it was a big success. If a little wax guy like me can sell 5 cases at a retail price, how was it that blowout was selling the same product at 45/box with a HUGE full page ad in Beckett two weeks later? THE COST FROM TOPPS IS WAY HIGHER THAN THAT AND HE IS NOT DIRECT WITH ANY MANUFACTURER! That being said, SOMEONE is losing BIG money on a product that is out for 2 weeks. While I sell at a retail price across the board I am the same every year on SPA and hot products, as I am on the lower products. The online guys dump the lower/mid end stuff and gauge on the high end stuff. My 2010 bowman jumbos are still $95/box cause thats what they are every year. My point is, this--single cards should be sold like the stock market, wax is something readily available and the wax prices tend to be directly correlated to the singles prices. When wax gets dumped, the singles don't do well. Prices shouldn't be that different as they were in the topps chrome instance.

In terms of the patch faking there are plenty of even worse ramifications that people overlook. When customers open a box and get a good hit, they want to be rewarded. For example, a lot of people may not like mccoy or maclin although those would be GREAT hits in my store, that customer wants to be able to sell their 3/4/5/logo patch and not have people wonder if its faked. Because there is so much patch faking, customers can't even get rewarded. Pujols chromes are being faked, patches being faked, and more and more and more. This hobby is LOSING customers, LCS--I would say less than 5% of my business both in store and at shows is from kids under 15. THATS INSANE! All I wanted to do on the weekends after my games was get to the LCS.

How do we fix this? MAKE THE MANUFACTURES POCKETS HURT. DONT ORDER PRODUCT. WRITE A LETTER WITH HUNDREDS OF SIGNATURES BOYCOTTING THE MANUFACTURER AND EBAY UNTIL THESE ISSUES ARE ADDRESSED. FIND ANOTHER AUCTION SITE WHOSE FEES DONT CONTINUE TO RISE AND RISE AND RISE BUT THE SELLER PROTECTION, ESP ON INTERNATIONAL TRANSACTIONS IS TERRIBLE TO BE KIND ABOUT IT.

There are a lot of ways to get the point across, people just have to be willing to make waves. I could tell you guys stories that you wouldn't even begin to fathom could be true about backdoor topps and ud stuff, BIG TIME DEALERS who forge autos, guys who know how to get JSA/PSA stickers off authentic autos and onto ones that dont pass and then resubmit the good item. If any of you are serious about helping the health of the hobby I have a group of guys who is as well. WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. You only get one shot though. We need a perfect gameplan and numbers----there is big power in numbers.

Sorry for the super long post, but this is SO FRUSTRATING that something that could be an absolutely incredible hobby gets ruined more and more everyday. PLEASE PM me if you are really serious about trying to do something that could make a difference.

 

[bojacksoncollector]

Rather than throwing allegations/accusations at buyers/sellers, we could just create a "Before & After" thread. Post the original card picture that was initially purchased and the buyer's username, followed by the subsequent seller's username and the "after" picture of the altered card. No allegations, no accusations, just facts! Nothing illegal or slanderous about fact!

 

[maxpower]

...I have conversations similar to these DAILY whether its regarding patch faking, shill bidding, canceling sales, people putting astronomical BIN and having them hit, and other major issues in the hobby...

How is having at BIN hit one of the hobby's "major issues"?

 

[clubhouse sports]

LEt's say a card is worth $500. Someone lists it for BIN $1500 and they have their friend buy it, but they keep the card. Now they put it in forums, and bring it to shows saying hey, it sold for $1500, I'm desperate and need money, I'll take 900 or 1000. You dont think that happens ALL the time?

 

[cgilmo]

LEt's say a card is worth $500. Someone lists it for BIN $1500 and they have their friend buy it, but they keep the card. Now they put it in forums, and bring it to shows saying hey, it sold for $1500, I'm desperate and need money, I'll take 900 or 1000. You dont think that happens ALL the time?

For the life of me, I don't know anyone who would fall for it.

 

[jbhofmann]

LEt's say a card is worth $500. Someone lists it for BIN $1500 and they have their friend buy it, but they keep the card. Now they put it in forums, and bring it to shows saying hey, it sold for $1500, I'm desperate and need money, I'll take 900 or 1000. You dont think that happens ALL the time?

For the life of me, I don't know anyone who would fall for it.

I've seen singular BINs move pricing dramatically. Heyward Chrome Ref Auto's had settled to around 175 and BOOM one is hit at 300 out of nowhere. Soon people are listing left and right and people are hitting BIN that are just under the 300 because they are getting a steal. Many didn't understand why one member here would shill and hit his on BINs but this is why. Create a percieved steal and people will jump on it.

 

[cgilmo]

LEt's say a card is worth $500. Someone lists it for BIN $1500 and they have their friend buy it, but they keep the card. Now they put it in forums, and bring it to shows saying hey, it sold for $1500, I'm desperate and need money, I'll take 900 or 1000. You dont think that happens ALL the time?

For the life of me, I don't know anyone who would fall for it.

I've seen singular BINs move pricing dramatically. Heyward Chrome Ref Auto's had settled to around 175 and BOOM one is hit at 300 out of nowhere. Soon people are listing left and right and people are hitting BIN that are just under the 300 because they are getting a steal. Many didn't understand why one member here would shill and hit his on BINs but this is why. Create a percieved steal and people will jump on it.

yeah, but I also don't know who these people are...

The ones who pay $200 for a base Heyward chrome.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

LEt's say a card is worth $500. Someone lists it for BIN $1500 and they have their friend buy it, but they keep the card. Now they put it in forums, and bring it to shows saying hey, it sold for $1500, I'm desperate and need money, I'll take 900 or 1000. You dont think that happens ALL the time?

For the life of me, I don't know anyone who would fall for it.

I've seen singular BINs move pricing dramatically. Heyward Chrome Ref Auto's had settled to around 175 and BOOM one is hit at 300 out of nowhere. Soon people are listing left and right and people are hitting BIN that are just under the 300 because they are getting a steal. Many didn't understand why one member here would shill and hit his on BINs but this is why. Create a percieved steal and people will jump on it.

yeah, but I also don't know who these people are...

The ones who pay $200 for a base Heyward chrome.

or almost $4,000 for a bgs 10 heyward chrome auto non-refractor

he's batting below .240 now