Congratulations Mr Beltre

Topnotchsy · May 17, 2015

tpeichel said:
Not really a valid comparison, Jones did not have a good season after the age of 30.

I'd counter that by pointing out that Beltre basically did not have a good season (one exception) before 30.

IMO Jones deserves to be in the Hall so comparing to him does not necessarily hurt Beltre but looking at Beltre's career I don't see it...

athletics07 · May 17, 2015

tpeichel said:
Not really a valid comparison, Jones did not have a good season after the age of 30.

I didn't bring up Jones nor did I compare him to Beltre.

David K. · May 17, 2015

Probably will not make it into the HOF.......remember his 48 home runs during the blank era......when lots of players were using things ...McGwire, Bonds, etc.....Best regards, David

David K. · May 17, 2015

And he has yet to get close again ...........Just Like Brady Anderson when he hit 50 home runs....Best regards, David

WCTYSON · May 17, 2015

Topnotchsy said:
I'd counter that by pointing out that Beltre basically did not have a good season (one exception) before 30.

IMO Jones deserves to be in the Hall so comparing to him does not necessarily hurt Beltre but looking at Beltre's career I don't see it...

Saying that Beltre did not have a good season during that portion of his career is completely dismissing where a large portion of his value was coming from, his defense. What I am having a hard time seeing is, why would he not get the votes?

IndyManning18 · May 17, 2015

I think Beltre gets in. Just my $0.02.

tpeichel · May 17, 2015

WCTYSON said:
Saying that Beltre did not have a good season during that portion of his career is completely dismissing where a large portion of his value was coming from, his defense. What I am having a hard time seeing is, why would he not get the votes?

Exactly. In Beltre's Age 27, 28 and 29 seasons, he picked up two gloves while averaging 25 HR and 90 RBI. Ask any GM in baseball how valuable it is to have a gold glove third basemen that can hit like that and then you'll have a better understanding of Beltre's value.

RStadlerASU22 · May 17, 2015

tpeichel said:
Exactly. In Beltre's Age 27, 28 and 29 seasons, he picked up two gloves while averaging 25 HR and 90 RBI. Ask any GM in baseball how valuable it is to have a gold glove third basemen that can hit like that and then you'll have a better understanding of Beltre's value.

I don't think anyone on here is questioning Beltre as valuable , good , real good at times etc. But he doesn't scream HOF , no MVPs , never mentioned as a top tier player really in comparison to other players during his career and so on. So you have to take a look at the era he played , his stats , how long it's taken to obtain some stats , and see if its a HOF career or not. I feel he need to get one of those numbers 500/1500/3000 to get their attention.

I know these players played different positions but McGriff and Sheffield had better #s , by 15-20% in some categories and really didn't touch the Hall. So Beltre and 4 GG , I'm not sure that's enough , yet.

Ryan

Austin · May 17, 2015

Beltre should cruise past 3,000 in 2017 needing to only average 120+ hits a year.
3,000 hits combined with around 450 homers is Dave Winfield Hall of Fame level.
Plus being known as one of the best fielding third basemen of his era, and he's a lock to be inducted within his first 2-3 years of eligibility.

The only thing that will keep him out is a career-ending injury, because he could hit .220 until he retires and still easily reach 3,000 needing as few hits as he does at age 36.

AUTaxMan · May 17, 2015

tpeichel · May 18, 2015

RStadlerASU22 said:
I don't think anyone on here is questioning Beltre as valuable , good , real good at times etc. But he doesn't scream HOF , no MVPs , never mentioned as a top tier player really in comparison to other players during his career and so on. So you have to take a look at the era he played , his stats , how long it's taken to obtain some stats , and see if its a HOF career or not. I feel he need to get one of those numbers 500/1500/3000 to get their attention.

I know these players played different positions but McGriff and Sheffield had better #s , by 15-20% in some categories and really didn't touch the Hall. So Beltre and 4 GG , I'm not sure that's enough , yet.

Ryan

I think once voters take a deeper look and realize that they can't name 10 better 3B in the history of the game, they will give him a vote. He's definitely not a first ballot type of guy, but he should get in.

homerun28aa · May 18, 2015

I think most would agree that if he retires today, he's not a HOFer or even very close. My feeling is that at the end of his career it will be a difficult question - he will not get in very quickly. I think this may be a situation where he gets in via veteran's committee. Great ballplayer, but like others said HOF is not the hall of solid, or very good.

tpeichel · May 18, 2015

homerun28aa said:
I think most would agree that if he retires today, he's not a HOFer or even very close. My feeling is that at the end of his career it will be a difficult question - he will not get in very quickly. I think this may be a situation where he gets in via veteran's committee. Great ballplayer, but like others said HOF is not the hall of solid, or very good.

Can you name 10 better 3B in the history of the game?

I think people are looking at this from a fantasy baseball perspective. Sure there are better hitting 1B and OF that are not in the HOF, but those are hitting positions. How many minor leaguer stud hitters start out at SS and 3B but can't hack it and have to move to OF and 1B?

Only eleven 3B are in the HOF. 400 HRs already puts Beltre 3rd when compared to the other HOF third basemen. (Though Chipper at 468 would knock him down to 4th)

As far as the MVP argument, from the list of HOF third basemen I think only Schmidt, Brett and Robinson received the honor, so that shouldn'tdisqualify Beltre.

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tpeichel · May 18, 2015

RStadlerASU22 said:
I don't think anyone on here is questioning Beltre as valuable , good , real good at times etc. But he doesn't scream HOF , no MVPs , never mentioned as a top tier player really in comparison to other players during his career and so on. So you have to take a look at the era he played , his stats , how long it's taken to obtain some stats , and see if its a HOF career or not. I feel he need to get one of those numbers 500/1500/3000 to get their attention.

I know these players played different positions but McGriff and Sheffield had better #s , by 15-20% in some categories and really didn't touch the Hall. So Beltre and 4 GG , I'm not sure that's enough , yet.

Ryan

Forgot to add that Topnotchsy said he didn't have a good season before Age 30, which was why I pointed out his Age 27, 28 and 29 seasons.

AUTaxMan · May 18, 2015

tpeichel said:
Can you name 10 better 3B in the history of the game?

I think people are looking at this from a fantasy baseball perspective. Sure there are better hitting 1B and OF that are not in the HOF, but those are hitting positions. How many minor leaguer stud hitters start out at SS and 3B but can't hack it and have to move to OF and 1B?

Only eleven 3B are in the HOF. 400 HRs already puts Beltre 3rd when compared to the other HOF third basemen. (Though Chipper at 468 would knock him down to 4th)

As far as the MVP argument, from the list of HOF third basemen I think only Schmidt, Brett and Robinson received the honor, so that shouldn'tdisqualify Beltre.

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[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"][SIZE=-1].464[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"][SIZE=-1]342[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"][SIZE=-1]1,331[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"][SIZE=-1]1,138[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"][SIZE=-1]35[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]Mike Schmidt[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].267[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].384[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].527[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]548[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,595[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,506[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]174[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]Pie Traynor[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].320[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].362[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].435[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]58[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,273[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,183[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]158[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
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How does he stack up with Chipper Jones, who did win an MVP and is a first ballot HOFer?

homerun28aa · May 18, 2015

tpeichel said:
Can you name 10 better 3B in the history of the game?

I think people are looking at this from a fantasy baseball perspective. Sure there are better hitting 1B and OF that are not in the HOF, but those are hitting positions. How many minor leaguer stud hitters start out at SS and 3B but can't hack it and have to move to OF and 1B?

Only eleven 3B are in the HOF. 400 HRs already puts Beltre 3rd when compared to the other HOF third basemen. (Though Chipper at 468 would knock him down to 4th)

As far as the MVP argument, from the list of HOF third basemen I think only Schmidt, Brett and Robinson received the honor, so that shouldn'tdisqualify Beltre.

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[SIZE=-1]Frank Baker[/SIZE][SUP] (bio)[/SUP]
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[SIZE=-1].307[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].363[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].442[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]96[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]987[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]887[/SIZE]
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[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]235[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[SIZE=-1]Wade Boggs[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].328[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].415[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].443[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]118[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,014[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,513[/SIZE]
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[TD="bgcolor: #F3E9CE, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]24[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]George Brett[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].305[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].373[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].487[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]317[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,595[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,583[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]201[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]Jimmy Collins[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].294[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].344[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].409[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]65[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]983[/SIZE]
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[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,055[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]194[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]George Kell[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[SIZE=-1].306[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].368[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].414[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]78[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]870[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]881[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]51[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[SIZE=-1]Freddie Lindstrom[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1].311[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].351[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].449[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]103[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]779[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]895[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]84[/SIZE]
[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: left"]
[SIZE=-1]Eddie Mathews[/SIZE]
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[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].271[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1].378[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1].509[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]512[/SIZE]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
[SIZE=-1]1,453[/SIZE]
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[TD="bgcolor: #f3e9ce, align: right"]
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[SIZE=-1]68[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]Brooks Robinson[/SIZE]
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I believe he is around the 15th best 3B of all-time - I can go down the list if you'd like of guys who I think is better. The fact of the matter is that the 400 HR club is by far his number one argument for the HOF and that alone definitely does not cut it. I think if you're going to use that argument you can't compare him to 3B alone, what if in the next 10 years we have 10 more 3B who get 400 plus HR's? I think if you're going to say the guy was a superior hitter you have to compare him to the best hitters of his generation. Plus I'm always a big fan of the smell test, he just doesn't strike me as as a superstar of our generation he strikes me as a very solid player. In his 18 year career, he's been an all-star only 4 times. He lead the NL in homers once, the AL in hits once in an 18 year career. He needs 350 hits and 100 HR's to get to the 3,000 hit club and 500 HR club - if he has another 4 years ahead of him of solid baseball and is able to get into both those clubs then I think you have a real case as those are huge clubs to be in, but as of now he doesn't have it IMO.

Super Mario · May 18, 2015

Not a Hall of Famer.

WCTYSON · May 18, 2015

WCTYSON said:
Let me see if we can put this in context further. In the history of MLB, among all position players all-time only 51 have hit more home runs and only 76 have more hits than Beltre and that is without even considering his defensive value. I find player comparisons to get a bit silly because there are so many determining factors when comparing numbers. Setting that aside, I have yet to see anything that would compel me to say he does not deserve to be in the HOF. Early in his career he was young and athletic leading to valuable metrics defensively. As he aged, his athletic ability has slowed but his hitting has steadied with maturity.

homerun28aa said:
I believe he is around the 15th best 3B of all-time - I can go down the list if you'd like of guys who I think is better. The fact of the matter is that the 400 HR club is by far his number one argument for the HOF and that alone definitely does not cut it. I think if you're going to use that argument you can't compare him to 3B alone, what if in the next 10 years we have 10 more 3B who get 400 plus HR's? I think if you're going to say the guy was a superior hitter you have to compare him to the best hitters of his generation. Plus I'm always a big fan of the smell test, he just doesn't strike me as as a superstar of our generation he strikes me as a very solid player. In his 18 year career, he's been an all-star only 4 times. He lead the NL in homers once, the AL in hits once in an 18 year career. He needs 350 hits and 100 HR's to get to the 3,000 hit club and 500 HR club - if he has another 4 years ahead of him of solid baseball and is able to get into both those clubs then I think you have a real case as those are huge clubs to be in, but as of now he doesn't have it IMO.

I will take that list of 15 when you get a chance. Nobody has said that Beltre is an elite offensive player but taken with his run prevention he is easily an all-time great at that position. In the history of MLB, there have been thousands of position players. Without even arguing about Beltre being an elite offensive player, he still has the numbers to place him with all-time greats. Now that being said, add in the fact he is a top 3 all-time defensive player at that position and he is already in the HOF. Honestly, this is a silly debate as there really is not one to be had. Eye test, smell test and what you feel have nothing to do with his on the field HOF performance. So what exactly makes a HOF 3rd baseman? Is it hitting home runs, scoring runs, driving in runs, base hits, preventing runs? I have not heard a single point for not voting in Beltre.

r2d2 · May 18, 2015

RStadlerASU22 said:
I don't think anyone on here is questioning Beltre as valuable , good , real good at times etc. But he doesn't scream HOF , no MVPs , never mentioned as a top tier player really in comparison to other players during his career and so on. So you have to take a look at the era he played , his stats , how long it's taken to obtain some stats , and see if its a HOF career or not. I feel he need to get one of those numbers 500/1500/3000 to get their attention.

I know these players played different positions but McGriff and Sheffield had better #s , by 15-20% in some categories and really didn't touch the Hall. So Beltre and 4 GG , I'm not sure that's enough , yet.

Ryan

May you please tell me how many MVPs does Ron Santo and George Kell have?

homerun28aa · May 18, 2015

WCTYSON said:
I will take that list of 15 when you get a chance. Nobody has said that Beltre is an elite offensive player but taken with his run prevention he is easily an all-time great at that position. In the history of MLB, there have been thousands of position players. Without even arguing about Beltre being an elite offensive player, he still has the numbers to place him with all-time greats. Now that being said, add in the fact he is a top 3 all-time defensive player at that position and he is already in the HOF. Honestly, this is a silly debate as there really is not one to be had. Eye test, smell test and what you feel have nothing to do with his on the field HOF performance. So what exactly makes a HOF 3rd baseman? Is it hitting home runs, scoring runs, driving in runs, base hits, preventing runs? I have not heard a single point for not voting in Beltre.

Being in the HOF to me is being a dominant and superior player in your generation. That can be position specific as well (i.e. Piazza was a superstar, but also the best catcher of his generation). Beltre is not a superstar, and he is one of the best 3B at his position for his generation but just not an all-time great. Again, 4 all-star appearances in 18 years, 4 gold gloves does a lot of good for him, but lead AL in hits once and NL in homers once and those are his big hitting achievements. Never had any legitimate chance of winning an MVP or anything like that - has very few postseason appearances. Those things aren't all necessarily deterants but he just doesn't have ANYTHING that stands out. Here is my list in no particular order:

Schmidt, Matthews, Chipper, Brooks, Boggs, Brett, Home Run Baker, Trainer, Boyer, Rolen, A-Rod (if you consider him 3B), Santo. So those are 12 IMO who are clearly superior, after that IMO I'd rather have Nettles and Kell as well - and you have old time guys like Freddie Lindstrom whose just a tough comparison to Beltre even someone like Dave Kingman is arguably better. So that's what makes me say he's right around that 15 mark - I could have for sure missed someone as well.

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