Congratulations Mr Beltre

[WCTYSON]

Being in the HOF to me is being a dominant and superior player in your generation. That can be position specific as well (i.e. Piazza was a superstar, but also the best catcher of his generation). Beltre is not a superstar, and he is one of the best 3B at his position for his generation but just not an all-time great. Again, 4 all-star appearances in 18 years, 4 gold gloves does a lot of good for him, but lead AL in hits once and NL in homers once and those are his big hitting achievements. Never had any legitimate chance of winning an MVP or anything like that - has very few postseason appearances. Those things aren't all necessarily deterants but he just doesn't have ANYTHING that stands out. Here is my list in no particular order:

Schmidt, Matthews, Chipper, Brooks, Boggs, Brett, Home Run Baker, Trainer, Boyer, Rolen, A-Rod (if you consider him 3B), Santo. So those are 12 IMO who are clearly superior, after that IMO I'd rather have Nettles and Kell as well - and you have old time guys like Freddie Lindstrom whose just a tough comparison to Beltre even someone like Dave Kingman is arguably better. So that's what makes me say he's right around that 15 mark - I could have for sure missed someone as well.

I just wanted to quote this. Laughable at best. So what numbers are you using to keep Beltre out? Awards? You must be smoking good up there in the N.E. but it is puff-puff give. Pass it on, do not smoke the whole thing yourself.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

May you please tell me how many MVPs does Ron Santo and George Kell have?

Different times and to go further both of these guys got in with the Veteran's Committee. If you want to make an argument about Beltre making it eventually through the Veteran's Committee then maybe there is an argument. As of now I don't think he is a HOfer and I don't think he would get voted in.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

May you please tell me how many MVPs does Ron Santo and George Kell have?

May you please tell me if you want to turn guys that had single digit or low double digit HOF % votes for 10+ years that needed veteran committee votes to get them into the Hall as your examples ? The 2 players you mentioned are players that could be removed from the HOF, not used as HOF credential guys. If you think Beltre may get in in 20 years after he retires , then that basically shows you where his career stacks now for the Hall. So like AB the players you mentioned don't have MVP awards, but they basically weren't HOF worthy and would have been kicked off the voting a lot sooner w today's voting %.

Ryan

 

[tpeichel]

How does he stack up with Chipper Jones, who did win an MVP and is a first ballot HOFer?

Chipper is definitely the better hitter and I would certainly rank him higher than Beltre on the all-time 3B list.

 

[tpeichel]

I believe he is around the 15th best 3B of all-time - I can go down the list if you'd like of guys who I think is better. The fact of the matter is that the 400 HR club is by far his number one argument for the HOF and that alone definitely does not cut it. I think if you're going to use that argument you can't compare him to 3B alone, what if in the next 10 years we have 10 more 3B who get 400 plus HR's? I think if you're going to say the guy was a superior hitter you have to compare him to the best hitters of his generation. Plus I'm always a big fan of the smell test, he just doesn't strike me as as a superstar of our generation he strikes me as a very solid player. In his 18 year career, he's been an all-star only 4 times. He lead the NL in homers once, the AL in hits once in an 18 year career. He needs 350 hits and 100 HR's to get to the 3,000 hit club and 500 HR club - if he has another 4 years ahead of him of solid baseball and is able to get into both those clubs then I think you have a real case as those are huge clubs to be in, but as of now he doesn't have it IMO.

Of the non-HOFers, which 3B would you put above Beltre? (Chipper is the no-brainer)

 

[tpeichel]

Of the non-HOFers, which 3B would you put above Beltre? (Chipper is the no-brainer)

Never mind, just saw your list.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

I just wanted to quote this. Laughable at best. So what numbers are you using to keep Beltre out? Awards? You must be smoking good up there in the N.E. but it is puff-puff give. Pass it on, do not smoke the whole thing yourself.

I think its more so that Beltre (Too many) does not stick out as a legitimate Hofer. Maybe he is underestimated as a player, maybe not. I guess my thing is if you have to use metric's and look so deep into the numbers to make an argument for someone to me not a Hofer. That's why I stress that he needs 3000 hit as if he gets that, now we don't need to look at metric, we don't need to dig into the numbers, hes now a legitimate hofer. Like it or not, Metric and War are not fully there with the voters quit yet and as of now (to the voters) 500 hr, 3000hit, 300win, 3000Ks are still locks for someone to get into the Hall of fame (Excluding known steroid users ofcourse).

And by the way in all your post you haven't said a thing to convince me that he is 100% hofer at this point of his career.

 

[WCTYSON]

I think its more so that Beltre (Too many) does not stick out as a legitimate Hofer. Maybe he is underestimated as a player, maybe not. I guess my thing is if you have to use metric's and look so deep into the numbers to make an argument for someone to me not a Hofer. That's why I stress that he needs 3000 hit as if he gets that, now we don't need to look at metric, we don't need to dig into the numbers, hes now a legitimate hofer. Like it or not, Metric and War are not fully there with the voters quit yet and as of now (to the voters) 500 hr, 3000hit, 300win, 3000Ks are still locks for someone to get into the Hall of fame (Excluding known steroid users ofcourse).

And by the way in all your post you haven't said a thing to convince me that he is 100% hofer at this point of his career.

You do not have to use metrics or look deep for Beltre to be considered a HOF 3rd baseman. For him not to get the vote, you would just have to simply and completely dismiss his defensive value as an overall player. It is not rocket science here. Baseball is run creation and prevention. Beltre is not the all-time best at that position in either but he is easily one of the all-time best when you factor both.

 

[tpeichel]

Being in the HOF to me is being a dominant and superior player in your generation. That can be position specific as well (i.e. Piazza was a superstar, but also the best catcher of his generation). Beltre is not a superstar, and he is one of the best 3B at his position for his generation but just not an all-time great. Again, 4 all-star appearances in 18 years, 4 gold gloves does a lot of good for him, but lead AL in hits once and NL in homers once and those are his big hitting achievements. Never had any legitimate chance of winning an MVP or anything like that - has very few postseason appearances. Those things aren't all necessarily deterants but he just doesn't have ANYTHING that stands out. Here is my list in no particular order:

Schmidt, Matthews, Chipper, Brooks, Boggs, Brett, Home Run Baker, Trainer, Boyer, Rolen, A-Rod (if you consider him 3B), Santo. So those are 12 IMO who are clearly superior, after that IMO I'd rather have Nettles and Kell as well - and you have old time guys like Freddie Lindstrom whose just a tough comparison to Beltre even someone like Dave Kingman is arguably better. So that's what makes me say he's right around that 15 mark - I could have for sure missed someone as well.

Boyer - basically had a 10 year career and then disappeared, undoubtedly a great player for those 10 years
Rolen - definitely the better hitter, but as of right now he has 85 fewer HR than Beltre and 500+less hits. His defensive prowess and lack of 3B in the Hall should get him consideration though
Santo - I can see him above Beltre
Nettles - Beltre is better in pretty much every single stat I looked at except AS Game appearances (6 to 4)
Kell - very debatable, mostly a gap hitter without much speed
Kingman - only played 154 games at 3B in his career, so he's disqualified

1)Schmidt
2)Arod (He's still played more games at SS in his career, but we'll count him at 3B)
3)Mathews
4)Boggs
5)Brett
6)Chipper
7)Brooks Robinson
8)Santo
9)Traynor
10)HR Baker

Traynor and Baker are very hard to quantify. For instance, when you compare 3B using a stat that measures against other players of the same time, Beltre does very well and dominates players like Traynor and Baker.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_3B.shtml

 

[homerun28aa]

Boyer - basically had a 10 year career and then disappeared, undoubtedly a great player for those 10 years
Rolen - definitely the better hitter, but as of right now he has 85 fewer HR than Beltre and 500+less hits. His defensive prowess and lack of 3B in the Hall should get him consideration though
Santo - I can see him above Beltre
Nettles - Beltre is better in pretty much every single stat I looked at except AS Game appearances (6 to 4)
Kell - very debatable, mostly a gap hitter without much speed
Kingman - only played 154 games at 3B in his career, so he's disqualified

1)Schmidt
2)Arod (He's still played more games at SS in his career, but we'll count him at 3B)
3)Mathews
4)Boggs
5)Brett
6)Chipper
7)Brooks Robinson
8)Santo
9)Traynor
10)HR Baker

Traynor and Baker are very hard to quantify. For instance, when you compare 3B using a stat that measures against other players of the same time, Beltre does very well and dominates players like Traynor and Baker.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_3B.shtml

Even guys like Boyer and Nettles and Kell can't really be quantified directly when compared to Beltre. It's very hard to compare players of different generations - at the end of the day Beltre is solid in defense and a solid hitter towards the later stage of his career - he has NEVER been really great or distinguished. The ASG is a popularity contest, but 4 out of 18 season as an all-star and never getting to the MVP level, having very little postseason impact, etc. is all working against him. At the end of the day he's a solid player, not a dominant player by any means.

 

[homerun28aa]

You do not have to use metrics or look deep for Beltre to be considered a HOF 3rd baseman. For him not to get the vote, you would just have to simply and completely dismiss his defensive value as an overall player. It is not rocket science here. Baseball is run creation and prevention. Beltre is not the all-time best at that position in either but he is easily one of the all-time best when you factor both.

He's had 4 gold gloves...let's not label him as a Brooks Robinson just yet...

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

You do not have to use metrics or look deep for Beltre to be considered a HOF 3rd baseman. For him not to get the vote, you would just have to simply and completely dismiss his defensive value as an overall player. It is not rocket science here. Baseball is run creation and prevention. Beltre is not the all-time best at that position in either but he is easily one of the all-time best when you factor both.

Ok we won't use metrics or look very deep (you said it)

.284 Avg, 2644 Hits, 400 Hr, 4 sliver sluggers, 4 gold gloves - This is a hofer to you?

Remember it's not rocket science...

 

[Austin]

.284 Avg, 2644 Hits, 400 Hr, 4 sliver sluggers, 4 gold gloves - This is a hofer to you?

Remember it's not rocket science...

Beltre still has a few years left and will have 3,000 hits and around 450 homers and 1,600-1,700 rbi in less than three years.
You could post the stats of dozens of Hall of Famers several years before their careers are finished and say they don't look like Hall of Famers.

What matters is Beltre is on pace to put up Hall of Fame numbers, ones that are much better than several third basemen in the Hall.
Call him a compiler, but so were tons of Hall of Famers who played 20+ years to reach milestones.
A lot of people argued that Jeter wasn't even a Hall of Famer until a few years ago.

Barring injury, Beltre has a long time before he retires. He led the league in hits just two years, hit .324 last year and is leading the league in at bats this season, meaning he's healthy.

 

[tpeichel]

He's had 4 gold gloves...let's not label him as a Brooks Robinson just yet...

True, but the third basemen who has more gold gloves at 3B (8) than everyone except Brooks and Schmidt was winning the gold glove in the NL for 6 of the 7 years Beltre played in the NL.

 

[homerun28aa]

Beltre still has a few years left and will have 3,000 hits and around 450 homers and 1,600-1,700 rbi in less than three years.
You could post the stats of dozens of Hall of Famers several years before their careers are finished and say they don't look like Hall of Famers.

What matters is Beltre is on pace to put up Hall of Fame numbers, ones that are much better than several third basemen in the Hall.
Call him a compiler, but so were tons of Hall of Famers who played 20+ years to reach milestones.
A lot of people argued that Jeter wasn't even a Hall of Famer until a few years ago.

I would like to meet those people. He had a .310 career average even a few years ago, already over 3,000 hits in addition to 12 ASG appearances a few years ago, 5 world series titles, 5 gold gloves, as well as being the captain for one of the most dominant franchises of all-time. Again, HOF is not just about numbers. If Beltre plays until he's 40 and gets in the 3,000 hits club, gets close to the 500 HR club then you have a case. Right now he's 100 homers short and something like 350 hits short. There is nothing that jumps out as HOF worthy about Beltre (at the moment), not a single statistic not his offense nor his defense. Again, if he plays 4 more years and hits those milestones you have a great case of him being elected to the HOF around his 8-10th year of eligibility (same as other journeymen who played forever to compile stats). Until then, he's just not a HOF player he has so little to fall back on his biggest claim to fame is leading the league in home runs a single time he's been an all star one out of every 4.5 years he's been in the league and has little postseason presence. Add everything up and tell me he's a HOFer right now?

 

[homerun28aa]

True, but the third basemen who has more gold gloves at 3B (8) than everyone except Brooks and Schmidt was winning the gold glove in the NL for 6 of the 7 years Beltre played in the NL.

I'm not arguing he's a good defensive third basemen - but if you want to say he gets in the HOF on defense as his primary impetus you have to have a little more than 4 gold gloves IMO 4 gold gloves does not get you into the HOF when you're only a decent hitter.

 

[WCTYSON]

Let me see if we can put this in context further. In the history of MLB, among all position players all-time only 51 have hit more home runs and only 76 have more hits than Beltre and that is without even considering his defensive value. I find player comparisons to get a bit silly because there are so many determining factors when comparing numbers. Setting that aside, I have yet to see anything that would compel me to say he does not deserve to be in the HOF. Early in his career he was young and athletic leading to valuable metrics defensively. As he aged, his athletic ability has slowed but his hitting has steadied with maturity.

Ok we won't use metrics or look very deep (you said it)

.284 Avg, 2644 Hits, 400 Hr, 4 sliver sluggers, 4 gold gloves - This is a hofer to you?

Remember it's not rocket science...

Simply put, YES!

He's had 4 gold gloves...let's not label him as a Brooks Robinson just yet...

Never did. Let's not label Robinson as productive as Beltre's bat either.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

Simply put, YES!



Never did. Let's not label Robinson as productive as Beltre's bat either.

BR - dominate fielder

AB - not dominate at hitting or fielding

I know you weren't using Brooks as your argument for AB , but there is a reason you don't even have to really look much at BRs offensive numbers to call him a HOFer.

Ryan

 

[homerun28aa]

Simply put, YES!



Never did. Let's not label Robinson as productive as Beltre's bat either.

18 times all star compared to 4 time all star
16 gold gloves compared to 4 gold gloves
Brooks won an AL MVP and 2 WS titles
Oh, and he has 200 more hits...

 

[r2d2]

May you please tell me if you want to turn guys that had single digit or low double digit HOF % votes for 10+ years that needed veteran committee votes to get them into the Hall as your examples ? The 2 players you mentioned are players that could be removed from the HOF, not used as HOF credential guys. If you think Beltre may get in in 20 years after he retires , then that basically shows you where his career stacks now for the Hall. So like AB the players you mentioned don't have MVP awards, but they basically weren't HOF worthy and would have been kicked off the voting a lot sooner w today's voting %.

Ryan

And how many players have been removed from the HOF in history?.... Yup, that's what I thought.