sportscardtheory
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If he retired today...
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Congratulations Mr Beltre
- Thread starter Bootstraps9
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If he retired today...
RStadlerASU22
Active member
- Jan 2, 2013
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The guy listed right below him took 39 years to get in and could of not got in and it wouldn't of mattered to a lot of people. No one argues he hasn't been good , but it's hard to prove his greatness. Most people in here who are saying he isn't in now have stated if he hits a key # , he gets in, so were not calling him a scrub.
Ryan
homerun28aa
Active member
- Jun 8, 2011
- 19,072
- 8
And? There are things not captured about the other guys in that sheet, Beltre has nothing going for him except being an above average hitter and a solid defensive 3B. He's very good today, my take is not HOF.
sportscardtheory
Active member
Yes, because being in the top-ten in nearly every meaningful statistical category for 3rd basemen is equal to "above average hitter and a solid defensive 3B". Other than being Mike Schmidt offensively and Brooks Robinson defensively, what do you need from the guy to consider him a Hall of Famer?
homerun28aa
Active member
- Jun 8, 2011
- 19,072
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Simply put, dominance in his era. He's been an all-star one of out every 4.5 years he's been in the league. If you're going to say he's a superior hitter, I'm going to compare him to superior hitters of his generation, if you're going to say he's a superior defenseman I'm going to compare him to the best defensive players of his generation. For a 3B he ranks decent in gold gloves and solid in hitting if your benchmark is hits and HRs - but which statistic jumps out at you for HOF like today not 3 years from now but today? 2,600 hits? 400 HRs? .284 average? 4/18 ASG appearances? Nothing postseason wise? 4 GG? It's all solid, but nothing to jump out and say wow this guy should be a HOFer.
RStadlerASU22
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MVPs , postseason success , key numbers , dominance at something... Any one of those things. He can get to a key number.
Ryan
homerun28aa
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- Jun 8, 2011
- 19,072
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Exactly, his claim to fame as a hitter in 18 years is leading the league in homers once and nine years after that being tied for the league lead in hits. Never dominant.
sportscardtheory
Active member
Any idea how many 3B in the history of the game have 2,500+ hits with 400+ homeruns?
sportscardtheory
Active member
All-Star game appearances. lol Oh boy.
WCTYSON
Well-known member
- Nov 3, 2014
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How does this read to you?
RStadlerASU22
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- Jan 2, 2013
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You have to look at 400 Hrs in the Era he played as not a "big" number. You also have to look at 18 years to get to 2600 hits. If we round up to 150/hits a year, it's not dominate. If you don't think a good portion of voters will think this way , then we see it completely different.
Ryan
WCTYSON
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- Nov 3, 2014
- 7,364
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Don't bother, some people prefer to go by subjective accolades.
sportscardtheory
Active member
One of only three 3rd basemen in the history of the game to have 2,500+ hits with 400+ homeruns... and on TOP of that he has the second best defensive WAR for 3rd basemen in the history of the game. But really, what has he done other than lead the league in homeruns, hits and doubles all in different seasons and have two top-five MVP finishes. This guy needs to step up his game.
RStadlerASU22
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It matters when it shows he was never dominant.
He doesn't have a stack of AS games to point to , he has 4. Nor does he have a bunch of GGs , he has 4. He doesn't have MVPs to point to , he has 0. This is over 18 years , so you have to find something that will send him over the top , and that's a 500/1500/3000 type number.
Ryan
sportscardtheory
Active member
Yep, and he should easily get to 3,000+ hits. So there's that. He'll join George Brett and Wade Boggs as the only true 3rd basemen to have 3,000+ hits. I'd call that elite company, but what do I know.
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WCTYSON
Well-known member
- Nov 3, 2014
- 7,364
- 171
So the only weight you give to his defensive value is gauged by GG awards? Or are you just removing the defensive value all together to go along with his historical offensive numbers at that position?
RStadlerASU22
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Other than playing 3 years less than Beltre has , Ron Santos average stats / career is about the same as Beltre. And that isn't in the HR era Beltre played in the first half if his career. But regardless , Santo had more GGs , more AS , the same type of MVP voting , and it took 32 years for him to get in after he was eligible.
Ryan
RStadlerASU22
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- Jan 2, 2013
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And I've stated all along if he gets 3000 , he gets in. I'm not trying to keep him out , but think he needs that #, which is not guaranteed. You never know.
Ryan
sportscardtheory
Active member
Santo is ranked 59th all-time in defensive WAR for 3rd basemen. Beltre is 2nd behind Brooks Robinson. But please, tell me more about Santo's Gold Gloves and All-Star appearances.
RStadlerASU22
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No , I'm not saying we can't dig deeper than the awards. However I am saying voters for the Hall of Fame may start with the wow test when looking at a player. Those would be awards such as GGs , MVPs , key numbers etc, and since Beltre doesn't have any dominance in any category , a key number, or a stash of awards, that can only hurt his chances. There may be voters who dig deeper into value , but I guarantee they all don't. And needing to obtain 75% isn't easy if you don't have something that standouts.
Ryan
