Do you think Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols use(d) PED's?

[notjomommasclint]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.
So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

I think Lou Gehrig smoked crack. I think Willie Mays liked boys. Do you see how stupid comments can be? Why in the hell would you think Hank Aaron did steroids? This idiotic "I don't care if they cheated or not" mentality adopted by so many "fans" is what is killing baseball... one moron at a time.

it is a fact that steroids have had a home in sports since the 1950s. assuming that the steroid era was ushered in or invented by jose canseco makes people look as moronic as not caring about cheating. cal ripken jr. played during the steroid and greenie era. are we to assume his record is tainted as well? baseball is a form of entertainment... we dont go out and bitch slap snoop doggy dog because he wrote a song while puffing on endo! we dont go after robert downey jr because he was all cranked out and portrayed chaplin better!

football has a more colorful and reported history of steroid use and no one calls for their heads because it is expected and accepted. leonard little actually killed someone while drunk driving and he gets 3 days worth or bad pub... gets another dui and its gone in less than a week... he ******* killed someone and then repeated his actions! while abusing a legal substance... yet we focus on who shoots what into their ass... or rubs themselves with oil...

to me baseball gets the short end of the deal because the writers seem to be mounted on white horses and ready to save the world... that and plus the media whirlwind sells their rags, pushes their blogs, and lets them cast stones at people they wont admit they admire... i would like for a player to write a book about a sports reporter who cheats on his wife, abuses alcohol or drugs, beats his kids, cheats on his taxes, and uses coffee to stay up late. bob costas is the worst to me. somehow this keebler sized bookworm was anointed the voice of our baseball generation because he has a good vocabulary, average looks, and smells like happiness...

so i dont really care if a player rubs himself down with miracle gro, pleasures himself with the clear, or urinates on his hands... each sport is about being better than your opponent and if thats what you gotta do... then you gotta do it after all ty cobb was a racist bastard who sharpened his spikes, sammy sosa no speaka da english and used corked bats, babe ruth was a womanizing drunk who car dated 16yr olds, mickey mantle was a lush who rub elbows with mobsters and each and everyone of them would have a needle hanging out of their asses today!

 

[jbhofmann]

At a point in time, lifting weights was not looked at the way it is now. Many were opposed to others doing it and was deemed as a "performance enhancer".

Cy Young-Never faced an African-American, Korean, Japanese, etc.. player
Babe Ruth-Never saw a slider or middle releiver
Bob Gibson-pitched on a higher and lower mound
Ozzie Smith-relied on artificial turf
Manny-used female fertility drugs that were prescribed to him

Each player in a different era had "performance enhancers".

None were illegal.

They aren't performance enhancers if everyone has the same "enhancement."
Babe Ruth never saw a slider or middle reliever...neither did anyone else back then. Babe Ruth didn't have the luxury of air travel or chiropractors either.
Ozzie Smith and Andre Dawson each played at least half of their careers on turf but Dawson can't walk correctly because of the effects it had on his knees and Ozzie had repeated problems with his body from playing on the turf. My point is it is only a performance enhancer if others don't have the same options legally.
What Manny is doing is different, he is cheating.

Each player I listed was on purpose. Each represent a certain "era" of the game.
Notice I put "performance enhancers" in quotes?

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.
So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

I think Lou Gehrig smoked crack. I think Willie Mays liked boys. Do you see how stupid comments can be? Why in the hell would you think Hank Aaron did steroids? This idiotic "I don't care if they cheated or not" mentality adopted by so many "fans" is what is killing baseball... one moron at a time.

Crack wasn't on the streets as "crack" when Gehrig was alive, so that may be idiotic. However, unlike you, I'm not a member of NAMBLA so I didn't know about Mays' affinity for boys. Was he on the cover of "NAMBLA Monthly"? Talk about a sweet IP request.

Call me a moron, I'm fine with that...but I just can't give everyone a "free pass" especially considering what we know today about steroids and their history in baseball.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Far be it for me to scoff at yet another steroids thread/poll, no matter how redundant it has become. but I digress....

The purpose behind the post was not to try to implicate either of the two players, but to get a feel, in light of the recent events, of how the public is viewing those who have not been implicated. When the whole steroid issue blew up the majority of people found it easy to assume it was just a few individuals. Now with names like Manny, Bonds, Clemens, Arod other there, the assumptions seems to have shifted for many as this thread shows. We have reached a point where even those who have never been linked to steroids are now assumed to have used by a large percentage.

 

[cowboysrule48]

If there is any doubt that baseball is still America's Game, just look at the steroid outcry it receives compared to other sports.

 

[matfanofold]

Far be it for me to scoff at yet another steroids thread/poll, no matter how redundant it has become. but I digress....

The purpose behind the post was not to try to implicate either of the two players, but to get a feel, in light of the recent events, of how the public is viewing those who have not been implicated. When the whole steroid issue blew up the majority of people found it easy to assume it was just a few individuals. Now with names like Manny, Bonds, Clemens, Arod other there, the assumptions seems to have shifted for many as this thread shows. We have reached a point where even those who have never been linked to steroids are now assumed to have used by a large percentage.

So, out of my whole post, this first couple lines were the only part you felt warrented a reply/response?

 

[Mozzie22]

How's this for sacrilege...I'm going to extend this and state that I believe that Hank Aaron used steroids at least once.
So, with that "wild" assumption, I'll assume that the majority of MLB players used something during their careers to either "get an edge" or simply keep up with everyone else.

I also don't view "a level playing field" as "cheating."

So if Pujols and Howard used before testing/punishment, I could care less, and do I assume one or both used? Yes, on both.


(NOTE: To those that will chime in about Albert Pujols' faith and his charitable work, that means nothing. You don't need to spend more than 10 seconds to see a long list of pious slimebags who publicly touted their faith and community contributions while in a face full of cocaine or prostitutes...or worse. And no, I'm not calling him a "slimebag".)

I think Lou Gehrig smoked crack. I think Willie Mays liked boys. Do you see how stupid comments can be? Why in the hell would you think Hank Aaron did steroids? This idiotic "I don't care if they cheated or not" mentality adopted by so many "fans" is what is killing baseball... one moron at a time.

Crack wasn't on the streets as "crack" when Gehrig was alive, so that may be idiotic. However, unlike you, I'm not a member of NAMBLA so I didn't know about Mays' affinity for boys. Was he on the cover of "NAMBLA Monthly"? Talk about a sweet IP request.

Call me a moron, I'm fine with that...but I just can't give everyone a "free pass" especially considering what we know today about steroids and their history in baseball.

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

 

[Bill Menard]

This whole guilty until proven innocent mentality is crap. You will never be able to prove that a player didn't use, you'll only be able to prove that a player did use. You can't prove a negative.

My thought is that neither Howard or Pujols used. Then again, if you asked last week I would have said that Manny hadn't used either. So what do I know?

Alex

It's not a "crap" mentality and the thought process has NOTHING to do with being able to prove a negative - or a postive for the matter. A mentality is a way of thinking about something based on either facts, evidence or just shear belief.

It's pretty much the gut response (feeling/belief) of many fans of the game of baseball in light of all the PED problems MLB has faced. It's become common place to just assume most guys who put up big numbers are doing so through some sort of use of PEDs because so many of them have already been called out for it.

Hell, it may even be nothing more than pessimist vs. optimist. I just feel their is overwhelming evidence that many players are getting an edge on their competition through PEDs and I can't say that anyone can really blame them, given what is at stake for so many of them.

It's really that simple.

 

[markakis8]

lmao, great post man. :lol:

it is a fact that steroids have had a home in sports since the 1950s. assuming that the steroid era was ushered in or invented by jose canseco makes people look as moronic as not caring about cheating. cal ripken jr. played during the steroid and greenie era. are we to assume his record is tainted as well? baseball is a form of entertainment... we dont go out and bitch slap snoop doggy dog because he wrote a song while puffing on endo! we dont go after robert downey jr because he was all cranked out and portrayed chaplin better!

football has a more colorful and reported history of steroid use and no one calls for their heads because it is expected and accepted. leonard little actually killed someone while drunk driving and he gets 3 days worth or bad pub... gets another dui and its gone in less than a week... he fracking killed someone and then repeated his actions! while abusing a legal substance... yet we focus on who shoots what into their ass... or rubs themselves with oil...

to me baseball gets the short end of the deal because the writers seem to be mounted on white horses and ready to save the world... that and plus the media whirlwind sells their rags, pushes their blogs, and lets them cast stones at people they wont admit they admire... i would like for a player to write a book about a sports reporter who cheats on his wife, abuses alcohol or drugs, beats his kids, cheats on his taxes, and uses coffee to stay up late. bob costas is the worst to me. somehow this keebler sized bookworm was anointed the voice of our baseball generation because he has a good vocabulary, average looks, and smells like happiness...

so i dont really care if a player rubs himself down with miracle gro, pleasures himself with the clear, or urinates on his hands... each sport is about being better than your opponent and if thats what you gotta do... then you gotta do it after all ty cobb was a racist bastard who sharpened his spikes, sammy sosa no speaka da english and used corked bats, babe ruth was a womanizing drunk who car dated 16yr olds, mickey mantle was a lush who rub elbows with mobsters and each and everyone of them would have a needle hanging out of their asses today!

 

[Brett Keith]

I believe anybody that does something well is cheating. Atleast that's my excuse when I don't tip.

 

[Topnotchsy]

Far be it for me to scoff at yet another steroids thread/poll, no matter how redundant it has become. but I digress....

The purpose behind the post was not to try to implicate either of the two players, but to get a feel, in light of the recent events, of how the public is viewing those who have not been implicated. When the whole steroid issue blew up the majority of people found it easy to assume it was just a few individuals. Now with names like Manny, Bonds, Clemens, Arod other there, the assumptions seems to have shifted for many as this thread shows. We have reached a point where even those who have never been linked to steroids are now assumed to have used by a large percentage.

So, out of my whole post, this first couple lines were the only part you felt warranted a reply/response?

I only quoted the beginning out of space concerns, and responded to basically everything else you wrote by explaining the reasoning for the initial post. As you state, posts about steroids and blame etc. have been made over and over again. My question was simply if the recent events have changed the laymans perception.

Here's your response to that (see I quoted more )

So I defer back to the origonal question, do I think they used PED's? Absolutely, at one point or another. Do I care? No.

 

[chisox3706]

well i voted...but for the least voted-in category as of right now. lol

just speculation, not saying anything against one of them i just feel if one of them juiced it was howard.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

No single place did I state that I was credibly stating the Aaron used steroids at least once, nor imply that I had proof. What I stated was that I believe that Hank Aaron used at least once.

Is it an unfounded opinion? Sure, but it is no less an opinion than another other opinion as long as it is phrased as such.

We do know that steroids were in baseball during the 70s. A fact admitted by a former Aaron teammate in Tom House. We did see a spike in Aaron's stats at 37, running completely against the percentages of 99% of the players in history. In fact, Aaron's two greatest SLG seasons were at ages 37 and 39. We also know the drive and determination needed to get past Ruth...especially in supposed "weakening" years so certainly a little "boost" would certainly peak most people's interest.

Now, is any of this concrete or evidence that Aaron used? Not at all and I'm not stating that it is, I am simply stating that I believe Aaron (among thousands of former MLB players who are "innocent") used steroids or something similar at some point. Knowingly or unknowingly, I'm not differentiating.

That's it Fozzie.

 

[ChasHawk]

You're correct, crack wasn't on the streets and Mays does not have an affinity towards boys, hence the absurdity of my statements. Anyone can throw out something like, "I think Hank Aaron did steroids," or "Lou Gehrig smoked crack." It is backing up a ridiculous statement/opinion like that with something other than, " I just feel that way because," that makes it credible. I'm still waiting to hear why you think Hank Aaron did steroids. Why don't you enlighten all of us with your knowledge of the history of steroids in baseball.

No single place did I state that I was credibly stating the Aaron used steroids at least once, nor imply that I had proof. What I stated was that I believe that Hank Aaron used at least once.

Is it an unfounded opinion? Sure, but it is no less an opinion than another other opinion as long as it is phrased as such.

We do know that steroids were in baseball during the 70s. A fact admitted by a former Aaron teammate in Tom House. We did see a spike in Aaron's stats at 37, running completely against the percentages of 99% of the players in history. In fact, Aaron's two greatest SLG seasons were at ages 37 and 39. We also know the drive and determination needed to get past Ruth...especially in supposed "weakening" years so certainly a little "boost" would certainly peak most people's interest.

Now, is any of this concrete or evidence that Aaron used? Not at all and I'm not stating that it is, I am simply stating that I believe Aaron (among thousands of former MLB players who are "innocent") used steroids or something similar at some point. Knowingly or unknowingly, I'm not differentiating.

That's it Fozzie.

At this point, I feel like anything is possible.

We already know that stimulants were rampant throughout baseball for along time. So for me, noone is above scrutiny anymore.

 

[pujolsthomefan33]

[quote="Bill Menard":36odnexw]I have to say that I tend to agree with Mike and Mike and take a guilty until proven innocent mentality to the game now too. There are just too many names that have been dropped now and it generally happens to be of those who have been very significant in the game - those who have set records and pushed the records of legends further down the list, making them even less significant with each person that passes them. This coupled with some of the stats players put up in one year and then drop off drastically the following year, really makes me question the achievements. Watching some guys have these monsterous years (2-3 in a row in some cases) and then a complete flaking off of production all of a sudden really troubles me and makes me think guys probably were using PEDs.

I know a lot of factors change the game from year to year and many players probably play through injuries, etc., that we may never even hear about, which can certainly contribute to the decline in production. I'm also well aware that these injuries can be helped along in the healing process by many different chemicals, drugs, etc. Which ones are banned, which aren't, I have no idea. Admittedly, I don't know much about the substances used. I also tend to question the guys who really never had great power numbers in their careers and then all of a sudden have a break out year and the fall off the map again after that. Hard to believe they did it all on their own with no PEDs.

I think the game is so competitive that the temptation to find anyway to give yourself an advantage has got to be very very strong and contemplated by many players. How many actually end up saying, "Yeah, ok, I am going to try this," I obviously have no idea, but I personally think it's a large proportion of players.

Just because a player has a career year that stands out above their other numbers doesn't mean they used PEDs.

Ever hear of a guy named Roger Maris? He hit 61 homers in 1961 and never hit more than 39 any other year of his career. Was he taking steroids? Probably not.


It's the players who consistently put up bigger numbers than anyone has ever put up before that raise the red flag.


Barry Bonds was a very good baseball player, but when his numbers should have been getting progressively worse due to the fact that he was getting old, they kept getting better and better and then he hit 73 homeruns in 2001 at the age of 36.

When Maris hit 61, he was only 26. This is closer to the time when the human body is in prime physical condition, and therefore makes sense. Bonds hitting 30-40 homers during his 20s and then out of nowhere hitting 73 when he was 36 made it pretty obvious that he was using PEDs.[/quote:36odnexw]

Sorry but you are assuming Roger Maris never used any sort of "drug"........I have a feeling a lot of us will be surprised just how far back a lot of this stuff was being used....before PED's, Amphetamines ruled and went back as early as the 40's if I remember....

TK

 

[Adamsince1981]

This isn't directed at the OP, but does anyone get irritated that Pujols and Howard are constantly having their names thrown around in PED talk?

As of right now the answer is NO. Look at all the guys mentioned in the Mitchell Report and look and these guys that have failed test and been busted. Pujols and Howard have never been implicated.

Not only that, but look at how Manny was caught. His testosterone was above natural levels, but he was caught when the investigators following the PAPER TRAIL to discover the source. This isn't just peeing in a cup.

These are full fledged investigations. If Pujols was 33 and/or had used PED's, either MLB would have found out about it via their investigations or an "anonymous" source.

Unless something factual ever comes out on these guys, they should be looked upon as clean and should be repsected and admired for the way they play the game.

 

[200lbhockeyplayer]

This isn't directed at the OP, but does anyone get irritated that Pujols and Howard are constantly having their names thrown around in PED talk?

As of right now the answer is NO. Look at all the guys mentioned in the Mitchell Report and look and these guys that have failed test and been busted. Pujols and Howard have never been implicated.

Not only that, but look at how Manny was caught. His testosterone was above natural levels, but he was caught when the investigators following the PAPER TRAIL to discover the source. This isn't just peeing in a cup.

These are full fledged investigations. If Pujols was 33 and/or had used PED's, either MLB would have found out about it via their investigations or an "anonymous" source.

Unless something factual ever comes out on these guys, they should be looked upon as clean and should be repsected and admired for the way they play the game.

I'm probably in the minority, but I can still "respect" and "admire" a player's skills whether or not I perceive them to be a "user."

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

 

[pujolsthomefan33]

This isn't directed at the OP, but does anyone get irritated that Pujols and Howard are constantly having their names thrown around in PED talk?

As of right now the answer is NO. Look at all the guys mentioned in the Mitchell Report and look and these guys that have failed test and been busted. Pujols and Howard have never been implicated.

Not only that, but look at how Manny was caught. His testosterone was above natural levels, but he was caught when the investigators following the PAPER TRAIL to discover the source. This isn't just peeing in a cup.

These are full fledged investigations. If Pujols was 33 and/or had used PED's, either MLB would have found out about it via their investigations or an "anonymous" source.

Unless something factual ever comes out on these guys, they should be looked upon as clean and should be repsected and admired for the way they play the game.

I'm probably in the minority, but I can still "respect" and "admire" a player's skills whether or not I perceive them to be a "user."

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

me either.....I see it as rampid and that most were using, probably including a lot of the HOFers that we hold in such high regard. What it does do for me, is makes the players that really, truly didnt use that much more amazing....say like Griffey for example--as I truly believe him to be clean. It also may help guys like Fred McGriff and Andre Dawson get into the HOF as I truly believe neither of them used....

TK

 

[Adamsince1981]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

 

[ChasHawk]

Steroid usage means absolutely nothing to me.

You are 1 in a very small minority.

I really don't think he is. Look at how many people are still fans and collectors of Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and Clemens. Things may have dropped off slighty, but I still see HUGE #'s on completed auctions for those guys.