HOF discussion: Andruw Jones

[bodiaz]

If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one great player to ensure team sucess. Also, "what if.." scenerios are fruitless. Thankfully the voters have a solid sence of reality and do not base a player on the teams worth as a whole nor do the play the scenerio game to negate accomplishment.

Except when it comes to steriods huh? Voters have no problem palying the "what if they didn't use" game. Please do not be a hypocrite.

 

[matfanofold]

[quote="jgro85":2zmvjmzw]If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one great player to ensure team sucess. Also, "what if.." scenerios are fruitless. Thankfully the voters have a solid sence of reality and do not base a player on the teams worth as a whole nor do the play the scenerio game to negate accomplishment.

Except when it comes to steriods huh? Voters have no problem palying the "what if they didn't use" game. Please do not be a hypocrite.[/quote:2zmvjmzw]


Please show me anything that adds validity to your "what if they didnt use" adgenda and voters. And how is anything I'm saying make me a 'hypocrite'? Not only do you have some of the oddest opinions, but your logic baffles me at time as well.

 

[bodiaz]

[quote="bodiaz":1nvrx95q][quote="jgro85":1nvrx95q]If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one great player to ensure team sucess. Also, "what if.." scenerios are fruitless. Thankfully the voters have a solid sence of reality and do not base a player on the teams worth as a whole nor do the play the scenerio game to negate accomplishment.

Except when it comes to steriods huh? Voters have no problem palying the "what if they didn't use" game. Please do not be a hypocrite.[/quote:1nvrx95q]


Please show me anything that adds validity to your "what if they didnt use" adgenda and voters. And how is anything I'm saying make me a 'hypocrite'? Not only do you have some of the oddest opinions, but your logic baffles me at time as well.[/quote:1nvrx95q]


To hard to argue with someone who is this stupid! You are saying McGwire is being held out of the HOF because he wasn't good enough? Steriod use has nothing to do with voters keeping him out? They are playing the , "what if he didn't use, would he have been good enough" game even though pitchers used also. All of the steriod guys were already good enough, and would have been hof anyway. The voters are punishing them because they can. You are a hypocrite because you are like most fans and think this is fair to keep users out even no there was no penaly at the time for using steriods. Can't break it down any easier, so if you are still confused I am sorry. I don't teach preschool.

 

[donrusscrusademan]

name calling isnt good for driving points across..
or in this case runs. :|

 

[matfanofold]

[quote="matfanofold":1zc1vvjv][quote="bodiaz":1zc1vvjv][quote="jgro85":1zc1vvjv]If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one great player to ensure team sucess. Also, "what if.." scenerios are fruitless. Thankfully the voters have a solid sence of reality and do not base a player on the teams worth as a whole nor do the play the scenerio game to negate accomplishment.

Except when it comes to steriods huh? Voters have no problem palying the "what if they didn't use" game. Please do not be a hypocrite.[/quote:1zc1vvjv]


Please show me anything that adds validity to your "what if they didnt use" adgenda and voters. And how is anything I'm saying make me a 'hypocrite'? Not only do you have some of the oddest opinions, but your logic baffles me at time as well.[/quote:1zc1vvjv]


To hard to argue with someone who is this stupid! You are saying McGwire is being held out of the HOF because he wasn't good enough? Steriod use has nothing to do with voters keeping him out? They are playing the , "what if he didn't use, would he have been good enough" game even though pitchers used also. All of the steriod guys were already good enough, and would have been hof anyway. The voters are punishing them because they can. You are a hypocrite because you are like most fans and think this is fair to keep users out even no there was no penaly at the time for using steriods. Can't break it down any easier, so if you are still confused I am sorry. I don't teach preschool.[/quote:1zc1vvjv]

I really like your passion, albiet misguided and a touch irrational, but let me finish this by saying trying to make an argument based soley on ASSumption, and putting illogical words in others mouth(s) to try and add validity to some fruitless point, seems a bit of a stretch. However, I will say that if you did teach pre school, at least then you would probablly have some basic comprehention skill and thus refrain from making posts like you are known for. Oh well, one can dream... Have fun with the rest of this one man argument.

 

[Fandruw25]

name calling isnt good for driving points across..
or in this case runs. :|

You can't really say he's terrible at driving in runs. Excluding this season's games and his 96 season where he played 30 games...he's averaging around 90 RBI's a season. Also, when you consider that out of everyone who's ever played baseball he ranks 143 all time in RBI's and has more RBI's than most CF's in the Hall, I don't think that's a great argument.

 

[donrusscrusademan]

name calling isnt good for driving points across..
or in this case runs. :|

You can't really say he's terrible at driving in runs. Excluding this season's games and his 96 season where he played 30 games...he's averaging around 90 RBI's a season. Also, when you consider that out of everyone who's ever played baseball he ranks 143 all time in RBI's and has more RBI's than most CF's in the Hall, I don't think that's a great argument.

I wasnt talking about Jones, I was using a bad pun talking about the above agrument getting out of hand .. points vs. runs

or as they say.. ***** runs and errors

 

[Fandruw25]

name calling isnt good for driving points across..
or in this case runs. :|

You can't really say he's terrible at driving in runs. Excluding this season's games and his 96 season where he played 30 games...he's averaging around 90 RBI's a season. Also, when you consider that out of everyone who's ever played baseball he ranks 143 all time in RBI's and has more RBI's than most CF's in the Hall, I don't think that's a great argument.

I wasnt talking about Jones, I was using a bad pun talking about the above agrument getting out of hand .. points vs. runs

or as they say.. quit swearing runs and errors

 

[markakis8]

Well I have watched him the past couple weeks and I must say it is a different A. Jones. Despite his putrid .210 (or whatever it was) BA last year, I thought he made an improvement with the Rangers. It appears he's gone a step further this year.

Am I expecting .300 40 HR 120 RBI? No. But I honestly don't think .250 30 HR 90 RBI is out of the question, which would be a landslide of an improvement.

And he still has some major work to be enshrined, I'm rooting for him.

 

[pigskincardboard]

If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Now there's a player where an argument can be made for Web-Gems affecting perception.

Once again, maybe even for the last time, Andruw Jones was much better than Torii Hunter.

 

[tidefan12]

Wow!! Very spirited thread......love to see debate like this.

As a lifelong Braves fan, I would love nothing more than to see Andruw get in. Can't think of a post-70's era team that could boast SIX possible HOFers in its everyday lineup for a 5-year stretch.....Chipper, Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine (all stone cold locks) and McGriff (borderline to the side of longshot) being the others.

Having said that, I'm not so sure Andruw makes it without a major boost in his numbers over the next 4-5 years. He was hyped in the Mantle/Griffey Jr./Mays category, and while his career has been stellar to this point, the feeling among most of the likely voters has been that he hasn't quite lived up to expectations no matter what kind of numbers he puts up from here.

Also, count me among those who find it criminal that some of the best 80's era players who should have been in years ago.....Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Alan Trammell all come to mind......are currently locked out of Cooperstown with very little hope of getting in.

 

[AndruwHRJones]

As a Jones fan and collector, I hope he gets into the HOF. Right now, he is not in. If he plays 4-5 more years and gets to 500 HR's, I don't see how you keep him out of the HOF.

I think most people only remember his last 3 horrible seasons. Before that, he was one of the best outfielders of all time. Granted gold gloves can be a popularity contest, but to win 10 in a row is not all on popularity. The all star game is a popularity contest as well, and he only made that 5 of the 10 years he won gold gloves. He also was one of the most durable players from 1997-2007, never playing in less than 153 games.

Outside of defense, he was never a great average guy. Basically the only hitting numbers making him HOF worthy are the HR's. If he makes it to 500, I say he makes in the HOF sooner or later. While the 500 HR benchmark is not what it once was, it is still a great accomplishment with only 25 players ever to achieve it. If that is not a great accomplishment, I don't know what is.

While I have my doubts about most players in this era, Andruw has never been linked to steroids. Most will point to 2005 and 2006 and say he used those years. He may have, who knows. But the question I always ask is, why stop using in 2007 when he was playing for a huge 5 year contract in free agency? I agree with Fandruw, he got lazy and put on weight.

Andruw was recently stated as saying he thinks he has 5 years left. There are plenty of BIG IFS that need to fall into place for him to reach 500 HR's, but he is looking very good these days at the plate and in the OF. I am pulling for him to get his career back on track and hopefully make the HOF.

 

[leatherman]

I think the biggest knock on Andruw is the fact that he could have been so much better, had he chosen to work on his game instead of blowing cash in The Gold Club. He got fatter year after year. Do you know he batted .303 with 199 hits when he was just 23? He was also 21-27 in stolen base attempts that year. He should already have 500 home runs.

db

 

[sportscardtheory]

Even with 500 HRs, NO WAY.

 

[Crash Davis]

[quote="matfanofold":17tuysjb][quote="bodiaz":17tuysjb][quote="jgro85":17tuysjb]If Andre Dawson and Jim Rice got in, Andruw gets in.

And that sir is my problem with Andre Dawson and Jim Rice being in. The standard just gets lower and lower. Next it will be "Is Torri Hunter a HOFer?" Answer, "If Andruw Jones is in, he has to be." Where does it end? None of these guys mentioned should be HOFers.

Dawson and Rice were both among the best of their generation, 'face of the game' type players and leaders of their respective teams. Jones is none of that. Statisticly they can be compared, but that is where the comparison ends and Jones falls short. It's the hall of fame, not the hall of stats.

Take Jim Rice out of Fenway and he becomes average. Dawson was not even good enough to carry a team. He very rarely made the playoffs. Even his "MVP" season I blieve the Cubs finished 4th! How can you be valuable when the team is 4th?!?! What, they would have been 5th without him? Without that MVP, he does not make the HOF.

Unfortunately, it takes more than one great player to ensure team sucess. Also, "what if.." scenerios are fruitless. Thankfully the voters have a solid sence of reality and do not base a player on the teams worth as a whole nor do the play the scenerio game to negate accomplishment.

Except when it comes to steriods huh? Voters have no problem palying the "what if they didn't use" game. Please do not be a hypocrite.[/quote:17tuysjb]


Please show me anything that adds validity to your "what if they didnt use" adgenda and voters. And how is anything I'm saying make me a 'hypocrite'? Not only do you have some of the oddest opinions, but your logic baffles me at time as well.[/quote:17tuysjb]


To hard to argue with someone who is this stupid! You are saying McGwire is being held out of the HOF because he wasn't good enough? Steriod use has nothing to do with voters keeping him out? They are playing the , "what if he didn't use, would he have been good enough" game even though pitchers used also. All of the steriod guys were already good enough, and would have been hof anyway. The voters are punishing them because they can. You are a hypocrite because you are like most fans and think this is fair to keep users out even no there was no penaly at the time for using steriods. Can't break it down any easier, so if you are still confused I am sorry. I don't teach preschool.[/quote:17tuysjb]

If Mark McGwire didn't hit 70 home runs in 1998, he would be Dave Kingman.

 

[braden]

I think the biggest knock on Andruw is the fact that he could have been so much better, had he chosen to work on his game instead of blowing cash in The Gold Club. He got fatter year after year. Do you know he batted .303 with 199 hits when he was just 23? He was also 21-27 in stolen base attempts that year. He should already have 500 home runs.

db

He certainly did have a HOF worthy quote during questioning at the Gold Club trial though. Maybe he should be inducted just for that.

 

[Crash Davis]

And let me also say that Andruw Jones is nowhere close to the ballplayer that Andre Dawson was. Dawson won an MVP. That's for starters. He was never accused of not hustling. He was never out of shape. He was a HOF-caliber player.

Andruw Jones and Vladimir Guerrero broke in essentially at the same time. Guerrero had the better career and has a good shot at Cooperstown. Even now, he's a consistent .300 hitter with some pop. He will be a borderline HOFer when it's all said and done, which puts Jones well below the line.

 

[Crash Davis]

As a Jones fan and collector, I hope he gets into the HOF. Right now, he is not in. If he plays 4-5 more years and gets to 500 HR's, I don't see how you keep him out of the HOF.

I think most people only remember his last 3 horrible seasons. Before that, he was one of the best outfielders of all time. Granted gold gloves can be a popularity contest, but to win 10 in a row is not all on popularity. The all star game is a popularity contest as well, and he only made that 5 of the 10 years he won gold gloves. He also was one of the most durable players from 1997-2007, never playing in less than 153 games.

Outside of defense, he was never a great average guy. Basically the only hitting numbers making him HOF worthy are the HR's. If he makes it to 500, I say he makes in the HOF sooner or later. While the 500 HR benchmark is not what it once was, it is still a great accomplishment with only 25 players ever to achieve it. If that is not a great accomplishment, I don't know what is.

While I have my doubts about most players in this era, Andruw has never been linked to steroids. Most will point to 2005 and 2006 and say he used those years. He may have, who knows. But the question I always ask is, why stop using in 2007 when he was playing for a huge 5 year contract in free agency? I agree with Fandruw, he got lazy and put on weight.

Andruw was recently stated as saying he thinks he has 5 years left. There are plenty of BIG IFS that need to fall into place for him to reach 500 HR's, but he is looking very good these days at the plate and in the OF. I am pulling for him to get his career back on track and hopefully make the HOF.

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

If Andruw Jones gets in, does Gary Sheffield?

 

[sdsportsfan1214]

As a Jones fan and collector, I hope he gets into the HOF. Right now, he is not in. If he plays 4-5 more years and gets to 500 HR's, I don't see how you keep him out of the HOF.

I think most people only remember his last 3 horrible seasons. Before that, he was one of the best outfielders of all time. Granted gold gloves can be a popularity contest, but to win 10 in a row is not all on popularity. The all star game is a popularity contest as well, and he only made that 5 of the 10 years he won gold gloves. He also was one of the most durable players from 1997-2007, never playing in less than 153 games.

Outside of defense, he was never a great average guy. Basically the only hitting numbers making him HOF worthy are the HR's. If he makes it to 500, I say he makes in the HOF sooner or later. While the 500 HR benchmark is not what it once was, it is still a great accomplishment with only 25 players ever to achieve it. If that is not a great accomplishment, I don't know what is.

While I have my doubts about most players in this era, Andruw has never been linked to steroids. Most will point to 2005 and 2006 and say he used those years. He may have, who knows. But the question I always ask is, why stop using in 2007 when he was playing for a huge 5 year contract in free agency? I agree with Fandruw, he got lazy and put on weight.

Andruw was recently stated as saying he thinks he has 5 years left. There are plenty of BIG IFS that need to fall into place for him to reach 500 HR's, but he is looking very good these days at the plate and in the OF. I am pulling for him to get his career back on track and hopefully make the HOF.

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

If Andruw Jones gets in, does Gary Sheffield?

Sheffield has a better shot then Andruw

 

[craftysouthpaw]

And let me also say that Andruw Jones is nowhere close to the ballplayer that Andre Dawson was. Dawson won an MVP. That's for starters. He was never accused of not hustling. He was never out of shape. He was a HOF-caliber player.

Andruw Jones and Vladimir Guerrero broke in essentially at the same time. Guerrero had the better career and has a good shot at Cooperstown. Even now, he's a consistent .300 hitter with some pop. He will be a borderline HOFer when it's all said and done, which puts Jones well below the line.

I don't know how one can say Andruw was nowhere close to the ballplayer that Dawson was when compelling arguments can be made he has been a better player than Dawson. If he isn't better (and I think he is), he is darned close.

All of the Baseball Prospectus created player evaluation tools rate Andruw as already having a better career than Dawson. Bill James' stuff as well. Andruw often drove me crazy as well with his antics but that stuff isn't the defining factor when evaluating a guy. Dawson was a class act and someone I will certainly point out to my son as playing the game with dignity, but all things considered, I would rather Andruw playing for my team.

And an MVP award - especially that MVP award - can be virtually meaningless considering who votes (note I'm not saying they are meaningless - just that they can't be taken at face value). He basically won that year because he played for the Cubs and the writers loved the fact he gave that blank contract to the Cubs and played for $500,000. Again, BP has his 1987 year as only the 18th best in the NL. If he played for a division winner, maybe you could argue for intangibles as a factor to say he deserve the award, but they finished last.

I think Vladdy and Andruw should both get in. Vladdy is way better offensively but has been a liability in the field for years. Besides his arm, he has typically cost his team runs in the OF. This explains how BP also has Andruw as better career wise to date than him - the gap in defense overcomes the gap in offense going the other direction.