HOF discussion: Andruw Jones

[AndruwHRJones]

As a Jones fan and collector, I hope he gets into the HOF. Right now, he is not in. If he plays 4-5 more years and gets to 500 HR's, I don't see how you keep him out of the HOF.

I think most people only remember his last 3 horrible seasons. Before that, he was one of the best outfielders of all time. Granted gold gloves can be a popularity contest, but to win 10 in a row is not all on popularity. The all star game is a popularity contest as well, and he only made that 5 of the 10 years he won gold gloves. He also was one of the most durable players from 1997-2007, never playing in less than 153 games.

Outside of defense, he was never a great average guy. Basically the only hitting numbers making him HOF worthy are the HR's. If he makes it to 500, I say he makes in the HOF sooner or later. While the 500 HR benchmark is not what it once was, it is still a great accomplishment with only 25 players ever to achieve it. If that is not a great accomplishment, I don't know what is.

While I have my doubts about most players in this era, Andruw has never been linked to steroids. Most will point to 2005 and 2006 and say he used those years. He may have, who knows. But the question I always ask is, why stop using in 2007 when he was playing for a huge 5 year contract in free agency? I agree with Fandruw, he got lazy and put on weight.

Andruw was recently stated as saying he thinks he has 5 years left. There are plenty of BIG IFS that need to fall into place for him to reach 500 HR's, but he is looking very good these days at the plate and in the OF. I am pulling for him to get his career back on track and hopefully make the HOF.

QUESTION OF THE DAY:

If Andruw Jones gets in, does Gary Sheffield?

I don't think the comparison is anywhere near the same. But I will answer. Andruw would not be getting into the HOF based on 500 HR's alone. He would be getting in on superior defense early in his career and 500 HR's combined. Sheffield would have to get in on his offensive numbers alone. He put up some great numbers and I personally would not be suprised if Sheffield does get in someday. But with Sheffield, you have to take into account his poor attitude as a player and his links to steroids. At least that is what voters will take into account. Andruw on the other hand has not been linked to steroids to date and has not had the attitude issues Sheffield has had.

 

[AndruwHRJones]

And let me also say that Andruw Jones is nowhere close to the ballplayer that Andre Dawson was. Dawson won an MVP. That's for starters. He was never accused of not hustling. He was never out of shape. He was a HOF-caliber player.

Andruw Jones and Vladimir Guerrero broke in essentially at the same time. Guerrero had the better career and has a good shot at Cooperstown. Even now, he's a consistent .300 hitter with some pop. He will be a borderline HOFer when it's all said and done, which puts Jones well below the line.

As for Dawson, I for one think he will get into the HOF some day. But to compare the two based on MVP awards is lame. Especially when Dawson won his over a 2nd place Ozzie Smith who hit ZERO HR's that year. Many players in past have put up MVP type numbers and have not won the award due to various reasons. Andruw Jones came up 2nd to Albert Pujols in 2005. Sorry, but I think Andruw Jones coming up 2nd in the MVP voting to arguably one of the best players of all time trumps Dawson's MVP award over Ozzie Smith and his ZERO HR's that year.

 

[matfanofold]

@ the Sheff question...


500+ HR's
~2700 hits
~1500 RBI's
.290+ lifetime
9 AS games
In the top 10 MVP voting 6 times.


Is there really any question here? It's not even a question of "if" but when. First ballot?

And Sheff gets in WAAAAAYYYYYY before Jones at this point.

 

[donrusscrusademan]

@ the Sheff question...


500+ HR's
~2700 hits
~1500 RBI's
.290+ lifetime
9 AS games
In the top 10 MVP voting 6 times.


Is there really any question here? It's not even a question of "if" but when. First ballot?

And Sheff gets in WAAAAAYYYYYY before Jones at this point.

HOF can turn into Ms. Congeniality, so they might just give him the Belle treatment.
but the guy is a great player

 

[matfanofold]

@ the Sheff question...


500+ HR's
~2700 hits
~1500 RBI's
.290+ lifetime
9 AS games
In the top 10 MVP voting 6 times.


Is there really any question here? It's not even a question of "if" but when. First ballot?

And Sheff gets in WAAAAAYYYYYY before Jones at this point.

HOF can turn into Ms. Congeniality, so they might just give him the Belle treatment.
but the guy is a great player

[center:2ethnvm8][/center:2ethnvm8]

Not a chance. Albert Belle simply retired way too early. Sheff produced another 6 or 7 years amassing 1000 more hits, and 120+ more HR's than Belle. Although their production was similar, it ends with Belles career cut short. Sheff is in a whole different level because of that. A HOF level.

 

[sdsportsfan1214]

@ the Sheff question...


500+ HR's
~2700 hits
~1500 RBI's
.290+ lifetime
9 AS games
In the top 10 MVP voting 6 times.


Is there really any question here? It's not even a question of "if" but when. First ballot?

And Sheff gets in WAAAAAYYYYYY before Jones at this point.

HOF can turn into Ms. Congeniality, so they might just give him the Belle treatment.
but the guy is a great player

Alberte Belle was not close to the player Sheffield was

 

[donrusscrusademan]

@ the Sheff question...


500+ HR's
~2700 hits
~1500 RBI's
.290+ lifetime
9 AS games
In the top 10 MVP voting 6 times.


Is there really any question here? It's not even a question of "if" but when. First ballot?

And Sheff gets in WAAAAAYYYYYY before Jones at this point.

HOF can turn into Ms. Congeniality, so they might just give him the Belle treatment.
but the guy is a great player

Alberte Belle was not close to the player Sheffield was

I know.

 

[markakis8]

They were both incredibly good in their prime but your statement is a mighty stretch. Just look at the seasons Belle put up from 1993 to 1999. I can't imagine what his career #'s would've looked like had he not had to end his career due to injury.

Alberte Belle was not close to the player Sheffield was

 

[donrusscrusademan]

They were both incredibly good in their prime but your statement is a mighty stretch. Just look at the seasons Belle put up from 1993 to 1999. I can't imagine what his career #'s would've looked like had he not had to end his career due to injury.

Alberte Belle was not close to the player Sheffield was

162 game avg.

Belle- Hr 40 Rbi 130 Avg .295
Shef- Hr 32 Rbi 105 Avg .292


so yeah, Shef is "better" because he played a lot longer, but his numbers are awesome. I didnt bring him up to compare stats, just how fickle voters are

 

[kdailey4315]

What's with all the "top 10 MVP voting?" Is that really supposed to be a good thing? Just being a top 10 player in your league during your career is supposed to get you in the HOF now?

 

[Big Mac McGwire]

Care to list reasons why he wont? He just turned 33...I'm sure he has 5-7 years left in his tank. He's going to get 500 HRs. With all his Gold Gloves, I think that makes him a lock (if he gets to 500)

He was the best at his position for a very long time and had the star quality.

Very good player, but no. He goes into the Hall of Very Good.

Andruw Jones is NOT a lock if he gets 500 HR's. Gary Sheffield has 500 HR's, do you think Shef is a HOF'r??? Because he is NOOOOO WAY a hall of famer. Andruw Jones was the best defensive CF when he played. He was the Ozzie Smith for his position. BUT, the best at his position??? Since we lop LF,CF and RF as 1 position, i will name reasons why he was NOT the best at his position

Bonds
Griffey
Manny
Vlad
Belle
Juan Gonzalez.


Andruw Jones has not had a HOF career. If we were having this discussion PRE March 2005, then 500 HR would be automatic and McGwire and Raffy would be locks. No one is a lock now with 500 HR's.

Gary Sheffield is the perfect example of someone who played in the steroid era. He reached 500 with the help of juice. But besides the Juice, look at Sheff's body of work. He did not have a HOF type career. He was never the best at his position. He had a couple good seasons. But if you or anyone thinks Gary Sheff had a HOF career you really need your head examined.

And i bring him up because if Andruw does hit 500 he shouldnt be a lock. he did not have a HOF type career. He was a GREAT defensive player. But not a HOF'r.

 

[Big Mac McGwire]

No chance he EVER makes the hall.

you guys are crazy, if he gets 500+ hrs he will make it, the guy was one of the best defensive center fielders ever during his prime and you have to weigh in the gold gloves he won to his hall worthiness. The way the game is today, players arent gonna play long enough to get milestones like 500 hr's and 3000 hits and the ones that do will find their day in Cooperstown

Seriously?? The 500 HR's is becoming "the norm". 500 HR's today means nothing compared to what it did 20 years ago. 600 HR's is the new 500 HR's.

As for Gold Gloves...please, Gold Gloves are the most over-rated award now. Gold Gloves are given to the guy who is seen on Sportscenter making a few great plays a year.

His career .258 Batting Average is horrendous
He's never finished in the Top 10 in OBP, or OPS and only finished in the Top 10 once for Slugging.
He doesn't even have 2000 career hits and the way he's played his last few years, is probably 2 years away from reaching that. Hell, only six times has he even had 150+ hits in a season.

I seriously don't see how ANYONE can look at Andruw Jones as having been a GREAT player in his career. He's been a good player...but Great?? Outside of his ALMOST 400+ HR's and 10 Gold Gloves...what's made him great??

excellent point.

 

[donrusscrusademan]

No chance he EVER makes the hall.

you guys are crazy, if he gets 500+ hrs he will make it, the guy was one of the best defensive center fielders ever during his prime and you have to weigh in the gold gloves he won to his hall worthiness. The way the game is today, players arent gonna play long enough to get milestones like 500 hr's and 3000 hits and the ones that do will find their day in Cooperstown

Seriously?? The 500 HR's is becoming "the norm". 500 HR's today means nothing compared to what it did 20 years ago. 600 HR's is the new 500 HR's.

As for Gold Gloves...please, Gold Gloves are the most over-rated award now. Gold Gloves are given to the guy who is seen on Sportscenter making a few great plays a year.

His career .258 Batting Average is horrendous
He's never finished in the Top 10 in OBP, or OPS and only finished in the Top 10 once for Slugging.
He doesn't even have 2000 career hits and the way he's played his last few years, is probably 2 years away from reaching that. Hell, only six times has he even had 150+ hits in a season.

I seriously don't see how ANYONE can look at Andruw Jones as having been a GREAT player in his career. He's been a good player...but Great?? Outside of his ALMOST 400+ HR's and 10 Gold Gloves...what's made him great??

excellent point.

+1, some good thoughts

 

[trademhigh]

No chance he EVER makes the hall.

you guys are crazy, if he gets 500+ hrs he will make it, the guy was one of the best defensive center fielders ever during his prime and you have to weigh in the gold gloves he won to his hall worthiness. The way the game is today, players arent gonna play long enough to get milestones like 500 hr's and 3000 hits and the ones that do will find their day in Cooperstown

Seriously?? The 500 HR's is becoming "the norm". 500 HR's today means nothing compared to what it did 20 years ago. 600 HR's is the new 500 HR's.

As for Gold Gloves...please, Gold Gloves are the most over-rated award now. Gold Gloves are given to the guy who is seen on Sportscenter making a few great plays a year.

His career .258 Batting Average is horrendous
He's never finished in the Top 10 in OBP, or OPS and only finished in the Top 10 once for Slugging.
He doesn't even have 2000 career hits and the way he's played his last few years, is probably 2 years away from reaching that. Hell, only six times has he even had 150+ hits in a season.

I seriously don't see how ANYONE can look at Andruw Jones as having been a GREAT player in his career. He's been a good player...but Great?? Outside of his ALMOST 400+ HR's and 10 Gold Gloves...what's made him great??

excellent point.

You don't think 400 Home Runs and 10 Gold Gloves is great? You could say that about anyone. Outside of [insert categories that player x is best at], player X isn't that great.

 

[AndruwHRJones]

Care to list reasons why he wont? He just turned 33...I'm sure he has 5-7 years left in his tank. He's going to get 500 HRs. With all his Gold Gloves, I think that makes him a lock (if he gets to 500)

He was the best at his position for a very long time and had the star quality.

Very good player, but no. He goes into the Hall of Very Good.

Andruw Jones is NOT a lock if he gets 500 HR's. Gary Sheffield has 500 HR's, do you think Shef is a HOF'r??? Because he is NOOOOO WAY a hall of famer. Andruw Jones was the best defensive CF when he played. He was the Ozzie Smith for his position. BUT, the best at his position??? Since we lop LF,CF and RF as 1 position, i will name reasons why he was NOT the best at his position

Bonds
Griffey
Manny
Vlad
Belle
Juan Gonzalez.


Andruw Jones has not had a HOF career. If we were having this discussion PRE March 2005, then 500 HR would be automatic and McGwire and Raffy would be locks. No one is a lock now with 500 HR's.

Gary Sheffield is the perfect example of someone who played in the steroid era. He reached 500 with the help of juice. But besides the Juice, look at Sheff's body of work. He did not have a HOF type career. He was never the best at his position. He had a couple good seasons. But if you or anyone thinks Gary Sheff had a HOF career you really need your head examined.

And i bring him up because if Andruw does hit 500 he shouldnt be a lock. he did not have a HOF type career. He was a GREAT defensive player. But not a HOF'r.

Two questions:

Do you think Big Mac is a HOFer?

What elements define a HOF career and what elements is Andruw missing?

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

Care to list reasons why he wont? He just turned 33...I'm sure he has 5-7 years left in his tank. He's going to get 500 HRs. With all his Gold Gloves, I think that makes him a lock (if he gets to 500)

He was the best at his position for a very long time and had the star quality.

Very good player, but no. He goes into the Hall of Very Good.

Andruw Jones is NOT a lock if he gets 500 HR's. Gary Sheffield has 500 HR's, do you think Shef is a HOF'r??? Because he is NOOOOO WAY a hall of famer. Andruw Jones was the best defensive CF when he played. He was the Ozzie Smith for his position. BUT, the best at his position??? Since we lop LF,CF and RF as 1 position, i will name reasons why he was NOT the best at his position

Bonds
Griffey
Manny
Vlad
Belle
Juan Gonzalez.


Andruw Jones has not had a HOF career. If we were having this discussion PRE March 2005, then 500 HR would be automatic and McGwire and Raffy would be locks. No one is a lock now with 500 HR's.

Gary Sheffield is the perfect example of someone who played in the steroid era. He reached 500 with the help of juice. But besides the Juice, look at Sheff's body of work. He did not have a HOF type career. He was never the best at his position. He had a couple good seasons. But if you or anyone thinks Gary Sheff had a HOF career you really need your head examined.

And i bring him up because if Andruw does hit 500 he shouldnt be a lock. he did not have a HOF type career. He was a GREAT defensive player. But not a HOF'r.

I need to get my head examined :benson: as I think Gary Sheffield is a lock for the HOF. For me the big reason why is because he was one of the most patient and great contact hitters in the game. Obviously not the best but Great! The one stat that proves what I am saying and blows me away (I had no idea till I check it out) was his Walk to strikeout ratio. The guy is 19th All-time in walks and His Walks to Strikeout Beats out a lot of guys but most Notibley Willie Mays, Jimmie Foxx, Harmon Killebrew, Mickey Mantle, Frank Thomas and Much much more. Sure a guy like Willie Mays Blows him away in everything else but to do one thing positivley better than the great Willie Mays says alot about Gary Sheffield. I do not think he will get in first ballot because of the reputation he gave himself but the guy will get in. Compare his Walk to Strikeout ratio to Andrew Jones, Belle and Even Vlad (One of my faviorite Player who will Be a hofer and can hits everything out of the strike Zone) and he blows them away. Now the Walks to Strikeout ratio is just one aspect of stats but now add in the 500+ dingers, The 2700 hits, .292 AVG and even the 252 Stolen bases (Not Lou Brockish but not everyone can swipe 250+ bases in their careers). Gary Did a lot of Bad things but also did a lot of Good things and more than enough to get in to the Hall.

Now being that this is an Andrew Jones thread, I am on the fence with Andrew and want to see where he ends up when its all said and done.

 

[donrusscrusademan]

Care to list reasons why he wont? He just turned 33...I'm sure he has 5-7 years left in his tank. He's going to get 500 HRs. With all his Gold Gloves, I think that makes him a lock (if he gets to 500)

He was the best at his position for a very long time and had the star quality.

Very good player, but no. He goes into the Hall of Very Good.

Andruw Jones is NOT a lock if he gets 500 HR's. Gary Sheffield has 500 HR's, do you think Shef is a HOF'r??? Because he is NOOOOO WAY a hall of famer. Andruw Jones was the best defensive CF when he played. He was the Ozzie Smith for his position. BUT, the best at his position??? Since we lop LF,CF and RF as 1 position, i will name reasons why he was NOT the best at his position

Bonds
Griffey
Manny
Vlad
Belle
Juan Gonzalez.


Andruw Jones has not had a HOF career. If we were having this discussion PRE March 2005, then 500 HR would be automatic and McGwire and Raffy would be locks. No one is a lock now with 500 HR's.

Gary Sheffield is the perfect example of someone who played in the steroid era. He reached 500 with the help of juice. But besides the Juice, look at Sheff's body of work. He did not have a HOF type career. He was never the best at his position. He had a couple good seasons. But if you or anyone thinks Gary Sheff had a HOF career you really need your head examined.

And i bring him up because if Andruw does hit 500 he shouldnt be a lock. he did not have a HOF type career. He was a GREAT defensive player. But not a HOF'r.

I need to get my head examined :benson: as I think Gary Sheffield is a lock for the HOF. For me the big reason why is because he was one of the most patient and great contact hitters in the game. Obviously not the best but Great! The one stat that proves what I am saying and blows me away (I had no idea till I check it out) was his Walk to strikeout ratio. The guy is 19th All-time in walks and His Walks to Strikeout Beats out a lot of guys but most Notibley Willie Mays, Jimmie Foxx, Harmon Killebrew, Mickey Mantle, Frank Thomas and Much much more. Sure a guy like Willie Mays Blows him away in everything else but to do one thing positivley better than the great Willie Mays says alot about Gary Sheffield. I do not think he will get in first ballot because of the reputation he gave himself but the guy will get in. Compare his Walk to Strikeout ratio to Andrew Jones, Belle and Even Vlad (One of my faviorite Player who will Be a hofer and can hits everything out of the strike Zone) and he blows them away. Now the Walks to Strikeout ratio is just one aspect of stats but now add in the 500+ dingers, The 2700 hits, .292 AVG and even the 252 Stolen bases (Not Lou Brockish but not everyone can swipe 250+ bases in their careers). Gary Did a lot of Bad things but also did a lot of Good things and more than enough to get in to the Hall.

Now being that this is an Andrew Jones thread, I am on the fence with Andrew and want to see where he ends up when its all said and done.

some good points for Gary

 

[jgro85]

I like how people are saying "he was great at defense, but if he hits 500 HR he won't get in!"

I'm pretty sure 500 HR is a pretty *great* offensive stat.

Reasons why McGwire, Palmeiro won't get in: umm, they cheated and lied to Congress.

 

[matfanofold]

What's with all the "top 10 MVP voting?" Is that really supposed to be a good thing? Just being a top 10 player in your league during your career is supposed to get you in the HOF now?

So you think being in the top 10 of MVP voting is not a good thing??

Contextually speaking, if your a player that has been in the top 10 of MVP voting throughout your professional career, then it's a significant indicator of just how well of a ball player you were/are. And not just amongst your positional peers, but all of baseball. It is indeed a valid resource of player dominance and cant possibly be viewed any other way...

But if you care to elaborate on your original thought, I'd love to hear it.

 

[markakis8]

It's a simple fact. Andruw Jones will be a HOFer if he gets 500 HR and with his gold gloves. 1st ballot? Probably not. But he's a lock. He's debatable and could possibly still get in with 450 HR.

Also, to whomever said they lump all three OF positions together...FALSE. CF is the SS of the outfield.

I believe on how Bill James measures HOF (50 points being the avg HOF) he automatically gives 16 points for 10 years of CF, 13 points for RF and 10 or 11 for LF.

Catchers get 20 points and SS 18 I believe.