I heard a trade Idea for the Mets. BYE BYE REYES

[thegreathambino]

I really think they would need to give more up for a player like Reyes. Maybe if Lowrie or Buchholz proved anything in the majors it'd be different. But, as proven as they are in AAA and Spring Training, I see way too much risk on the Mets half. The Mets bamboozled Reyes on that contract. I think it's close, but it might take more.

MORE? Wow, you are on dream street. Does anyone remember Buchholz throwing a no-hitter and going 4-1 in 2007??

yes he threw a no hitter.. but here are some other people who threw no hitters...

Peter Munro
Steve Busby
Bud Smith
Kirk Saarloos

these guys i wouldn't call stars

Pete Munro did not throw a no-hitter. He was a part of the Astros' 6-man combined no-hitter. He threw like two innings.

sorry.. didn't realize him.. i think same with Kirk.. but regardless.. my point was.. there are alot of no name guys who throw no hitters

 

[thefasterblade]

I'm a huge Buchholz fan, I really am, but lets be rational here:

-One no hitter doesn't really prove or define anything, especially after what was to come in 2008. Rookies have thrown them before and fizzled away.
-One of his wins in 2007 was picked up in relief
-He has shown immaturity and a bit of hard headedness
-He struggled really bad last season and failed to believe in or establish his Fastball
-He lacks faith in his fastball for good reason as it is a pretty average pitch of his
-AAA is not MLB. We've seen it many times. Right now Ian Snell is tearing up AAA. Homer Bailey and Phil Hughes have done this several times also.

I own an Authentic Buchholz jersey and have heavily been following him heavily since 2006, but I still am realistic about him and his situation.

 

[sbib]

Wow - some trade - would be great for the Mets fans - Sox fans might start jumping out windows
- how about the Mets send Nick Evans to the Blue Jays for Roy Halladay and Ricky Romero?

 

[thegreathambino]

Wow - some trade - would be great for the Mets fans - Sox fans might start jumping out windows
- how about the Mets send Nick Evans to the Blue Jays for Roy Halladay and Ricky Romero?

thank about it.. the trade is not that unbelievable..

 

[soxrchamps07]

Wow - some trade - would be great for the Mets fans - Sox fans might start jumping out windows
- how about the Mets send Nick Evans to the Blue Jays for Roy Halladay and Ricky Romero?

thank about it.. the trade is not that unbelievable..

Maybe last year when Bucholz was getting killed and Ellsbury was being just average. Now, not so much.

 

[Crash Davis]

I really think they would need to give more up for a player like Reyes. Maybe if Lowrie or Buchholz proved anything in the majors it'd be different. But, as proven as they are in AAA and Spring Training, I see way too much risk on the Mets half. The Mets bamboozled Reyes on that contract. I think it's close, but it might take more.

MORE? Wow, you are on dream street. Does anyone remember Buchholz throwing a no-hitter and going 4-1 in 2007??

I love it.

Red Sox fans complain how much Yankees fans overrate their players. While I agree this deal would never happen, it would be because the Mets wouldn't do it - not the Red Sox.

Now let's break this down just a bit, keeping aside the prices of these player's rookie cards:

Jacoby Ellsbury - fleet-footed centerfielder with little pop. His statistics are identical to Yankees rookie CF Brett Gardner. Look it up - it's true.

Jed Lowrie - will be an average SS. Not a lot of HR-power. Decent minor-league numbers and very pedestrian stats at the major league level, right now.

Clay Buchholz - great 2007, which was a small, small sample-size. His 2008 season was atrocious. Yes, he is murdering triple-A right now, but he's been there before.

Now for the Mets side:

Jose Reyes - BIGPOPS, who claims Reyes is always hurt, should probably consult an optometrist for his poor eyesight. (DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A METS FAN). Since becoming a full-time regular in 2005, Reyes has amassed the following at-bat totals: 696, 647, 681, 688. So much for being hurt all the time. Oh, and did I mention that with the exception of 2005, where he scored 99 runs, he's scored over 100 runs per season. He hits 15 HR on avg, steals 60 bases, plays a good SS and averages 200 hits per year?

And he is signed to a good contract.

And you think that the Red Sox wouldn't trade three 25+ players, none of whom are prospects, and two of the three who are two years closer to being free-agents?

Delusional fans are delusional fans - whether they are Red Sox or Yankees or Mets fans. It doesn't matter.

If I were Omar Minaya, I'd tell the Red Sox to keep walking.

Let's be realistic here.

If Ellsbury was named Brett Gardner, and Buchholz was named Phil Hughes and Jed Lowrie was named Ramiro Pena, you'd all laugh at me and say how ridiculous I was to say that trade was equal to Reyes.

Well, there's virtually no difference between the Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie package and the Gardner, Hughes and Ramiro Pena package. None.

Statistically-speaking, it's a dead heat. Plus Hughes has more upside than Buchholz plus he's two years younger.

 

[Crash Davis]

A package of Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie is WAY overpaying for Reyes, who seems like he gets hurt all too often. The deal does not benefit the Red Sox, as Nick Green has done well above average at SS this season.

You mean THE nick green - the 30 going on 31-year-old Nick Green with the lifetime .240 batting average?

We're not talking a late-bloomer here like Ryan Ludwick or Russell Branyan.

Oh, I mean, if you're OK with Nick Green as your starting shortstop, more power to you.

 

[yankeeshater]

I wouldn't trade Buchholz & Ellsbury for Reyes, let alone those two and Lowrie.

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

 

[thegreathambino]

I wouldn't trade Buchholz & Ellsbury for Reyes, let alone those two and Lowrie.

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

you wouldn't trade them cuz your a huge ellsbury fan.. but if you look for the upside to the redsox.?? thats a good trade

 

[All The Hype]

I wouldn't trade Buchholz & Ellsbury for Reyes, let alone those two and Lowrie.

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

you wouldn't trade them cuz your a huge ellsbury fan.. but if you look for the upside to the redsox.?? thats a good trade

No it's not. At all.

 

[braden]

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

Well, for starters, the average is quite overrated. A .299 average with barely .400 slugging is incredibly empty. That shows that Ellsbury hits singles and virtually nothing else. In fact, the fact that he can hardly take a walk at all leads to a .347 OBP which is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. All told, he has a 91 OPS+. He's 91% of average.

The stolen bases are nice, yes. And he's stealing at about an 85% success rate so he is benefiting the team.

As for the defence, the fact that you, and others, call him a Gold Glove defender is what's overrated. Among qualified CFers in the AL, Ellsbury ranks 8th of 10 in RZR. In terms of Out of Zone plays, he's 5th. Hardly elite. In fact, he covers less ground than most. From my experience, Ellsbury gets bad reads on balls and gets to some of them due to his elite speed. Combine that with a weak arm and I can't imagine why anyone would argue he's Gold Glove worthy.

So, all things considered, Ellsbury is a leadoff singles hitter who doesn't walk, and plays average defense while having plus speed. If he were in any other market, aside from NY and Chicago, he'd been seen as entirely average.

 

[Jays_Cards]

The people arguing that this trade is even CLOSE to fair are absolutely clueless. Im not even going to waste my time explaining. CLUELESS!

 

[chuckbartowski]

Honestly.. i love jose reyes, but I wouldn't be too devasted if we got a good deal for him.

I was listening to WFAN which is the NY sports radio here, and I heard one of them talk about this trade.
This trade would never be done by the redsox, but It would be nice for the Mets

Mets Get:

Jacoby Ellsbury
Jed Lowrie
Clay Bucholz

Sox Get:

Jose Reyes

Why stop there...get Daniel Bard too...sheesh. ::facepalm::

 

[Wes]

I really think they would need to give more up for a player like Reyes. Maybe if Lowrie or Buchholz proved anything in the majors it'd be different. But, as proven as they are in AAA and Spring Training, I see way too much risk on the Mets half. The Mets bamboozled Reyes on that contract. I think it's close, but it might take more.

MORE? Wow, you are on dream street. Does anyone remember Buchholz throwing a no-hitter and going 4-1 in 2007??

I love it.

Red Sox fans complain how much Yankees fans overrate their players. While I agree this deal would never happen, it would be because the Mets wouldn't do it - not the Red Sox.

Now let's break this down just a bit, keeping aside the prices of these player's rookie cards:

Jacoby Ellsbury - fleet-footed centerfielder with little pop. His statistics are identical to Yankees rookie CF Brett Gardner. Look it up - it's true.

Except that Jacoby has a better batting average and double the steals.

Jed Lowrie - will be an average SS. Not a lot of HR-power. Decent minor-league numbers and very pedestrian stats at the major league level, right now.

Don't forget that he was playing with an injured wrist. His production last year projected over a full season is nearly 100 rbi WITH the injury.

Clay Buchholz - great 2007, which was a small, small sample-size. His 2008 season was atrocious. Yes, he is murdering triple-A right now, but he's been there before.

Now for the Mets side:

Jose Reyes - BIGPOPS, who claims Reyes is always hurt, should probably consult an optometrist for his poor eyesight. (DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A METS FAN). Since becoming a full-time regular in 2005, Reyes has amassed the following at-bat totals: 696, 647, 681, 688. So much for being hurt all the time. Oh, and did I mention that with the exception of 2005, where he scored 99 runs, he's scored over 100 runs per season. He hits 15 HR on avg, steals 60 bases, plays a good SS and averages 200 hits per year?

And he is signed to a good contract.

And you think that the Red Sox wouldn't trade three 25+ players, none of whom are prospects, and two of the three who are two years closer to being free-agents?

Delusional fans are delusional fans - whether they are Red Sox or Yankees or Mets fans. It doesn't matter.

If I were Omar Minaya, I'd tell the Red Sox to keep walking.

Let's be realistic here.

If Ellsbury was named Brett Gardner, and Buchholz was named Phil Hughes and Jed Lowrie was named Ramiro Pena, you'd all laugh at me and say how ridiculous I was to say that trade was equal to Reyes.

Well, there's virtually no difference between the Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie package and the Gardner, Hughes and Ramiro Pena package. None.

Statistically-speaking, it's a dead heat. Plus Hughes has more upside than Buchholz plus he's two years younger.

Finally, runs scored is an outrageous way to claim a players value. I can't see anyone who has watched these guys pitch taking any of the corresponding Yankees over the Red Sox prospects that you tried to compare them to. Gardner has been projected by most scouts as a fourth OF type, while Ellsbury is a legitimate starting centerfielder with outstanding defensive metrics to go with all around better tools. Buchholz vs Hughes is equally laughable, Hughes has proved even less than Clay in the majors, with more injury concerns.

 

[Wes]

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

Well, for starters, the average is quite overrated. A .299 average with barely .400 slugging is incredibly empty. That shows that Ellsbury hits singles and virtually nothing else. In fact, the fact that he can hardly take a walk at all leads to a .347 OBP which is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. All told, he has a 91 OPS+. He's 91% of average.

The stolen bases are nice, yes. And he's stealing at about an 85% success rate so he is benefiting the team.

As for the defence, the fact that you, and others, call him a Gold Glove defender is what's overrated. Among qualified CFers in the AL, Ellsbury ranks 8th of 10 in RZR. In terms of Out of Zone plays, he's 5th. Hardly elite. In fact, he covers less ground than most. From my experience, Ellsbury gets bad reads on balls and gets to some of them due to his elite speed. Combine that with a weak arm and I can't imagine why anyone would argue he's Gold Glove worthy.

So, all things considered, Ellsbury is a leadoff singles hitter who doesn't walk, and plays average defense while having plus speed. If he were in any other market, aside from NY and Chicago, he'd been seen as entirely average.

Also interesting here is that you are harping on Ellsbury's low OBP - Reyes' career mark is .337 and he has never been over .360.

 

[braden]

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

Well, for starters, the average is quite overrated. A .299 average with barely .400 slugging is incredibly empty. That shows that Ellsbury hits singles and virtually nothing else. In fact, the fact that he can hardly take a walk at all leads to a .347 OBP which is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. All told, he has a 91 OPS+. He's 91% of average.

The stolen bases are nice, yes. And he's stealing at about an 85% success rate so he is benefiting the team.

As for the defence, the fact that you, and others, call him a Gold Glove defender is what's overrated. Among qualified CFers in the AL, Ellsbury ranks 8th of 10 in RZR. In terms of Out of Zone plays, he's 5th. Hardly elite. In fact, he covers less ground than most. From my experience, Ellsbury gets bad reads on balls and gets to some of them due to his elite speed. Combine that with a weak arm and I can't imagine why anyone would argue he's Gold Glove worthy.

So, all things considered, Ellsbury is a leadoff singles hitter who doesn't walk, and plays average defense while having plus speed. If he were in any other market, aside from NY and Chicago, he'd been seen as entirely average.

Also interesting here is that you are harping on Ellsbury's low OBP - Reyes' career mark is .337 and he has never been over .360.

If you search my name and 'Jose Reyes' you'll find a thread a couple of months ago where I argued Reyes was quite overrated. So I'm not sure what your point is.


EDIT: I found it. From May 7th. Here's what I said:

"He's a leadoff hitter with a .336 career OBP. His career OPS+ is exactly 100.
He was a middle of the pack fielder last year.

He's definitely improving his OBP so I think he can become one of the top 10 players in the game, but I just don't think he's anywhere close to that right now.


I may be biased because I think speed is by far the most overrated tool but even with his incredible speed Reyes has been stealing at an 80% or lower success rate for the past four years. 75% is considered the bare minimum for it to be a worthwhile endeavour."

 

[Wes]

Despite Ellsbury being incredibly overrated, that deal still ain't happening.

What part of him is overrated? The .300 average, 35 steals, or Gold Glove defense?

Well, for starters, the average is quite overrated. A .299 average with barely .400 slugging is incredibly empty. That shows that Ellsbury hits singles and virtually nothing else. In fact, the fact that he can hardly take a walk at all leads to a .347 OBP which is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. All told, he has a 91 OPS+. He's 91% of average.

The stolen bases are nice, yes. And he's stealing at about an 85% success rate so he is benefiting the team.

As for the defence, the fact that you, and others, call him a Gold Glove defender is what's overrated. Among qualified CFers in the AL, Ellsbury ranks 8th of 10 in RZR. In terms of Out of Zone plays, he's 5th. Hardly elite. In fact, he covers less ground than most. From my experience, Ellsbury gets bad reads on balls and gets to some of them due to his elite speed. Combine that with a weak arm and I can't imagine why anyone would argue he's Gold Glove worthy.

So, all things considered, Ellsbury is a leadoff singles hitter who doesn't walk, and plays average defense while having plus speed. If he were in any other market, aside from NY and Chicago, he'd been seen as entirely average.

Also interesting here is that you are harping on Ellsbury's low OBP - Reyes' career mark is .337 and he has never been over .360.

If you search my name and 'Jose Reyes' you'll find a thread a couple of months ago where I argued Reyes was quite overrated. So I'm not sure what your point is.

I was simply using your point to illustrate to the OP how silly it is to say that Ellsbury's value is low comparitively to Reyes when they have similar offensive capabilities as far as the leadoff spot - it wasn't a direct response to anything you said.

 

[bigpops65]

A package of Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie is WAY overpaying for Reyes, who seems like he gets hurt all too often. The deal does not benefit the Red Sox, as Nick Green has done well above average at SS this season.

You mean THE nick green - the 30 going on 31-year-old Nick Green with the lifetime .240 batting average?

We're not talking a late-bloomer here like Ryan Ludwick or Russell Branyan.

Oh, I mean, if you're OK with Nick Green as your starting shortstop, more power to you.

For RIGHT NOW, yes, I am fine with Nick Green. Going into tonight, he's hitting .268 with 4 homers and 28 RBI, plus playing solid defense. This from a guy that was going to be in AAA as insurance. Yes, I am happy with what he has done.

Ellsbury: .299, 5 HR, 28 RBI, stole his 36th base tonight, 12 doubles, 3 triples; defensively, in three seasons, he's made 2 errors in 585 chances

Gardner: .278, 3 HR, 13 RBI, 17 SB, 4 doubles, 4 triples; defensively 2 errors in 212 chances.

Give me Ellsbury any day. I would go over postseason stats, but, um, Brett has never participated in one of those games. Meanwhile, Ellsbury is a career .438 hitter in World Series play.

To go one more, the 162 game averages, according to Baseball Reference, for both players:

Gardner: .257, 4 HR, 41 RBI, 43 SB, 13 doubles, 9 triples

Ellsbury: .295, 11 HR, 59 RBI, 60 SB, 26 doubles, 7 triples

 

[darocker80]

Honestly.. i love jose reyes, but I wouldn't be too devasted if we got a good deal for him.

I was listening to WFAN which is the NY sports radio here, and I heard one of them talk about this trade.
This trade would never be done by the redsox, but It would be nice for the Mets

Mets Get:

Jacoby Ellsbury
Jed Lowrie
Clay Bucholz

Sox Get:

Jose Reyes

Sounds like another delusional New York (Notice I didn't say Mets? Yanks fans who call FAN are just as guilty of this) fan who calls WFAN thinking his/her player is worth more than they actually are.

"Ok, why don't we send Ryan Church and Brian Schneider to San Francisco and see if we can get back Pablo Sandoval and this Madison Bumgarner kid I heard about."

:lol: :lol:

 

[Crash Davis]

Fine.

Here's what I should've said:

Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie for Reyes is not a good deal for the Mets.

The Mets need a big bat and a proven starting pitcher.

Ellsbury is as small a bat as they come. Lowrie is an average SS (the whole 100 projected 100 RBI thing from last year is a useless "statistic") and Buchholz went from prospect to suspect to prospect year over year since 2007, so I don't know what to make of him.

Reyes is a perennial all-star who is arguably the second-best offensive SS in baseball after the player the Red Sox gave away - Hanley Ramirez.