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crowhop
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just curious as to what you base your opinion on.pujolsthomefan33 said:
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If they retire today...who makes the HOF?
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pujolsthomefan33
Active member
I have looked at all the stats that everyone else has...sorry just dont see Pedro being a LOCK for the hall of fame. That is what I am saying--NOT A LOCK..none of you will change my mind otherwise.
Will he make it to the HOF--more than like yes---before Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, or Randy Johnson---More than likely no. Was he dominating sure--dont disagree--was he any more dominating that the others---NO.
Will he make it to the HOF--more than like yes---before Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, or Randy Johnson---More than likely no. Was he dominating sure--dont disagree--was he any more dominating that the others---NO.
MOFNY
Active member
Pedro's inability to make the HOF may be because the voters are thinking like you...a narrow-minded approach to core stats.pujolsthomefan33 said:
pujolsthomefan33
Active member
MOFNY said:
Yes, but stats are what get you into the HOF....you gotta have the stats to get in.....
scotty21690
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LOL if Glavine is a HOF lock than so is Pedro.
[Yes, I do think Glavine is a HOF lock]
[Yes, I do think Glavine is a HOF lock]
pujolsthomefan33
Active member
scotty21690 said:
How do you figure...Glavine is a lock because he has 300+ wins....If Pedro gets to 300 I agree with you......that is why I put Pedro as a Probably gets in...if he keeps playing and puts together a couple more good years, instead of a couple hurt years, I will be singing a different tune and saying he is a lock. Until then, he might get in, he might not...
TK
pujolsjunkie
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The most apt comparison for Pedro's stone-cold lock case for HOF entry is Sandy Koufax, and Pedro beats him when you factor in their respective eras.
Pedro had a stretch in Boston where he was the best pitcher in baseball hands down. Pedro, Randy and Maddux should skip into the hall of fame holding hands together. Sadly, Maddux couldn't wait one more year to retire.
Pedro had a stretch in Boston where he was the best pitcher in baseball hands down. Pedro, Randy and Maddux should skip into the hall of fame holding hands together. Sadly, Maddux couldn't wait one more year to retire.
scotty21690
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I figure because he has a higher W%, higher K/BB, higher K/9, lower ERA by .5, .3 lower WHIP, way higher ERA+, 3,000 Ks, and Pedro has led the league in many more catagories [not to mention all time].pujolsthomefan33 said:
If you think the only way a pitcher can get into the HOF is 300 wins then get your head out of your ass.
Pedro doesn't need 300 wins, much less 230 to get into the Hall of Fame.
If he doesn't play again, the last two or three years may tarnish his career a little, but he is in a different class of his own.
If some writers don't vote him in the first ballot with the numbers he has now, it will probably be because they don't like him, pushed Don Zimmer down, had a reputation as a 'head hunter' at times and don't like the fact Pedro is smarter than they think he is.
If he doesn't play again, the last two or three years may tarnish his career a little, but he is in a different class of his own.
If some writers don't vote him in the first ballot with the numbers he has now, it will probably be because they don't like him, pushed Don Zimmer down, had a reputation as a 'head hunter' at times and don't like the fact Pedro is smarter than they think he is.
pujolsthomefan33 said:
pujolsthomefan33
Active member
scotty21690 said:
First of all, where do you get off talking to me like that??? Are you really getting so worked up over this that you need to tell me to get my head out of my ?$%@. What are you 12???
When you grow up and decide you want to have a civil debate with someone let me know, until then, I am just going to view you as childish and not worth giving the time of day too. If that is the way you were brought up to talk to and conversate with people, then I really do feel sorry for you.
TK
MOFNY
Active member
Pedro has 3000 Ks...there that is a lock in your world. Oh and there is plenty of precedent for "short" careers making the HOF. Joe Gordon just made it this year, and Kirby Puckett comes to mind.pujolsthomefan33 said:
scotty21690
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yup, I'm 12.
Nope, I'm not getting worked up...I'm actually getting a kick out of seeing what you are going to say next to argue that Pedro isn't a HOFer.
At least I have common sense because I know Pedro is a HOF lock.
When you can actually attempt to prove me wrong, then let me know. Until then...keep crying that I said ass.
Yup, I'm 12.
Nope, I'm not getting worked up...I'm actually getting a kick out of seeing what you are going to say next to argue that Pedro isn't a HOFer.
At least I have common sense because I know Pedro is a HOF lock.
When you can actually attempt to prove me wrong, then let me know. Until then...keep crying that I said ass.
pujolsthomefan33
Active member
Lars said:
That is one of my biggest arguments. I think Pedro has great stats and definitely has a good case for the Hall.....but I think for me to see him as a lock, he really needs a few more years like he had before all the injuries....pre NY Mets. If he does that, and can stick around for a few more years and get his 300 Ws and over 3700 Ks, he is 100% a LOCK
Topnotchsy
Featured Contributor, The best players in history?
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Some thoughts:
I still can not figure out why people keep arguing for Blyleven . He's a guy who finished his career with a .534 winning percentage, and only finished above 13th in the Cy Young voting twice in his career. His ERA+ is 118, not especially impressive. I see no reason what so ever that he should even be considered to be honest and would just as quickly consider Jamie Moyer for the Hall (almost as many wins, with a far better W/L percentage, and very obviously not a HOF'er.)
People who think that Pedro is not a lock are overlooking how incredibly dominant he was, and how few pitchers are as dominant as he was for the length of time he was. The stats have been mentioned earlier, and he ranks quite high on many on-time lists. To ever compare Bert to his is laughable. Pedro's W/L is 214-99 (.684 winning percentage) with an ERA+ of 154 meaning his career ERA is basically 1.50 lower than the league average, while Blyleven's 287-250 (.534 winning percentage) with an ERA+ of 118 (just slightly more than half a run better than league average.)
And to the one who mentioned it, Pedro was far far more dominant than Smoltz and Glavine ever were. The stats don't lie, it's clear as day. (Check out Pedro from 1997-2003. 7 years; 3 Cy Young's, 1 2nd place finish, one season where he was injured, and a third place finish. One of the most dominant streaks by any pitcher in history.)
Ichiro and Pujols both have not played long enough. The day Pujols plays his 10th season he's an HOFer. Most people do not realize how incredible Pujols is, and how he ranks amongst the all-time greats for what he's already done. Ichiro I wouldn't call a lock, but a couple more seasons like his last 8 and he's a compelling argument.
There are no pitchers outside of the one's retiring in the next couple of years, who are really close. Guys like Smoltz, Schilling, Pedro, Randy, Glavine etc. are either locks, or in the discussion (I think they all get in) but other than that there's no one really close. (Mussina is another guy in the group, a guy I personally would take for the Hall way way before Blyleven.)
Names like Roy Halladay are very presumptuous (guy will be 32, and has just 131 wins; he's a long way away.) Brandon Webb and Jake Peavy haven't hit 90 wins yet so they are still a long way away, and Sabathia has just 117, a nice total, but a long, long way from HOF consideration (all three are still fairly young, but will need at least 5 more really good seasons to even begin warranting consideration.) Roy Oswalt is probably the pitcher who is furthest along at this point (129-64 .668 winning percentage, and a career ERA better than a run lower than league average.
edit: I forgot Mr. Santana who probably has the best case of any of the younger pitchers in baseball that he will wind up in Cooperstown. 109-51 with an ERA close to a run and a half better than league average. He's still a long way away, but deserves mention.
It will be interesting to see how the Hall views the hitters of the last era. If they do not change their standards there will be more players entering the Hall in the next 10 years than there has ever been before (many of which have been listed.) In my mind it's hard to consider players like Larry Walker, Gary Sheffield, Jim Thome and others like that, when there were so many better hitters playing tougher positions at the same time.
I still can not figure out why people keep arguing for Blyleven . He's a guy who finished his career with a .534 winning percentage, and only finished above 13th in the Cy Young voting twice in his career. His ERA+ is 118, not especially impressive. I see no reason what so ever that he should even be considered to be honest and would just as quickly consider Jamie Moyer for the Hall (almost as many wins, with a far better W/L percentage, and very obviously not a HOF'er.)
People who think that Pedro is not a lock are overlooking how incredibly dominant he was, and how few pitchers are as dominant as he was for the length of time he was. The stats have been mentioned earlier, and he ranks quite high on many on-time lists. To ever compare Bert to his is laughable. Pedro's W/L is 214-99 (.684 winning percentage) with an ERA+ of 154 meaning his career ERA is basically 1.50 lower than the league average, while Blyleven's 287-250 (.534 winning percentage) with an ERA+ of 118 (just slightly more than half a run better than league average.)
And to the one who mentioned it, Pedro was far far more dominant than Smoltz and Glavine ever were. The stats don't lie, it's clear as day. (Check out Pedro from 1997-2003. 7 years; 3 Cy Young's, 1 2nd place finish, one season where he was injured, and a third place finish. One of the most dominant streaks by any pitcher in history.)
Ichiro and Pujols both have not played long enough. The day Pujols plays his 10th season he's an HOFer. Most people do not realize how incredible Pujols is, and how he ranks amongst the all-time greats for what he's already done. Ichiro I wouldn't call a lock, but a couple more seasons like his last 8 and he's a compelling argument.
There are no pitchers outside of the one's retiring in the next couple of years, who are really close. Guys like Smoltz, Schilling, Pedro, Randy, Glavine etc. are either locks, or in the discussion (I think they all get in) but other than that there's no one really close. (Mussina is another guy in the group, a guy I personally would take for the Hall way way before Blyleven.)
Names like Roy Halladay are very presumptuous (guy will be 32, and has just 131 wins; he's a long way away.) Brandon Webb and Jake Peavy haven't hit 90 wins yet so they are still a long way away, and Sabathia has just 117, a nice total, but a long, long way from HOF consideration (all three are still fairly young, but will need at least 5 more really good seasons to even begin warranting consideration.) Roy Oswalt is probably the pitcher who is furthest along at this point (129-64 .668 winning percentage, and a career ERA better than a run lower than league average.
edit: I forgot Mr. Santana who probably has the best case of any of the younger pitchers in baseball that he will wind up in Cooperstown. 109-51 with an ERA close to a run and a half better than league average. He's still a long way away, but deserves mention.
It will be interesting to see how the Hall views the hitters of the last era. If they do not change their standards there will be more players entering the Hall in the next 10 years than there has ever been before (many of which have been listed.) In my mind it's hard to consider players like Larry Walker, Gary Sheffield, Jim Thome and others like that, when there were so many better hitters playing tougher positions at the same time.
MOFNY
Active member
Giving my boy props, that's why you are the king.Topnotchsy said:
Anthony K.
Active member
pujolsthomefan33 said:
I think you should pull your head out of your ass as well, because apparently you are seeing different statistics up there then you could be if you were using a computer.
Pedro is statistically better then Blyleven, yet he has pitched to a lot less batters and in a lot less games.
Not only that, he had quite possibly the most dominant 3-4 year stretch ever seen in the HISTORY of the game.
Tell me when Maddux, RJ, Smoltz, Glavine or Blyleven ever pitched like that?
*crickets*
That's what we will be hearing.
pujolsthomefan33
Active member
Great points and I forgot completely about Roy Oswalt...he would have been on my list as well if I would have remembered him....and Felix Hernandez to on the right track as well....though as said a long way aways for him as well.
200lbhockeyplayer
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Because you seem proud of these, let's take a quick look.scotty21690 said:
[
Now...my conclusion is still the same...nothing shows long-term dominance. Everything goes back to my intial point, Pedro Martinez "only" showed 7+ years of flat out dominance and many Hall of Fame voters will take that into consideration. Although he has appeared in 17 seasons, those 7+ years of dominance account for well over half of his stats....including his best ERA seasons.
And again, do "only" 7+ years of dominance allow someone to be chosen as a "First Ballot HOF Lock"? Not in my book.
Will he get in? Of course, that isn't the point. The point is that of the "locks" that I named, all have shown top tier dominance for more than 7+ years. All of them.
MOFNY
Active member
Johnson had an insane stretch with the Diamondbacks from 1999 to 2004. He won 4 Cy Youngs during that time, and could have easily won 5, but was snubbed in 2004 because he had a lousy record on a lousy team. In 2003 he was injured most of the year.Anthony K. said:
RandomH
Active member
Ichiro
