No threads about CC's 20th win?

[rehmus]

Congrats CC...on your way to a CY Young and possibly 21-22 wins

It's obviously VERY early, but will CC be the next 300 game winner?


156 wins right now at age 30, playing for the Yankees.

No.

He certainly has a better chance than most SPs right now.

He has 156 wins, lets say he wins 1 more start this year. So 157 wins. He turned 30 in July.

Age/wins

30-31/19
31-32/18
32-33/18
33-34/17
34-35/17
35-36/17
36-37/16
37-38/15
38-39/13

That would give him 307 wins... IF he stays healthy and doesn't have a terrible injury like TJ survery or something...i dont see how he doesn't do it.

I find it humorous you think CC will average 17 wins for the next eight years, until he is 38.

I see him beginning to decline around 34 years old, as the weight has to begin to take it's toll at some point.

Though, I could see him retiring in 5 years, after the end of his Yankee contract, with around 220 or so wins under his belt (+/- 5).

+1

fat pitchers dont win 300 games, even in the otherwise cushiest situation imaginable.

 

[RL24]

I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

 

[RL24]

I've learned to ignore the fat remarks... People have been saying he's going to get injured for years now because he's too fat, and they are still waiting and hoping and wishing and praying that maybe someday they'll be right. I'm sure all that jogging to the mound and back to the dugout really takes a toll on his body.

They'll put you in the Hall for 300 wins, but you win 287 or 289, and you miss the cut. 300 is a magic number that, by the time CC retires, no longer will be.

I think Girardi was right when he said 20 is special for any pitcher, but only because 20 is rare, and really, a Yankee shouldn't be too surprised if he finds himself at 20 wins yet ends the awards season without a Cy. A pitcher with 20 wins and a 4.50 ERA would be proud to reach the 20 mark, but the guy with a 2.40 ERA and 15 wins is going to know he pitched better.

How about the guy with 20 wins and a 3.05 ERA? 3.05 is not that different from 2.4 when you compare how different 3.05 is from 4.50.

 

[All The Hype]

I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

I don't buy that at all. You don't feel pressure every time you start simply because your team is in the playoff hunt. Maybe down the stretch you could start to feel it a little bit, but that's a completely irrelevant point.

Felix has been the better pitcher this season.

 

[RL24]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":7n527b80]I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

I don't buy that at all. You don't feel pressure every time you start simply because your team is in the playoff hunt. Maybe down the stretch you could start to feel it a little bit, but that's a completely irrelevant point.

Felix has been the better pitcher this season.[/quote:7n527b80]


OK, so you don't buy the whole pressure thing. You've never heard that it's harder playing under the bright lights of NYC. OK.

How about this one? Felix has had a really easy schedule this year. Sure, he's had to play Texas 5 times, but if Texas was in the East they would be 1/2 game away from being in 4th place. Has has faced the Rays 0 times, and the Red Sox 1 time. CC has faced the Rays 4 times, and the Red Sox 4 times. Felix did have to face the Yankees 3 times, but hey... CC had to play against the Phillies!

And then you look at the easy teams, like LAA who are below .500 this year. Felix has had the luxury of playing them 5 times, CC has played them 0 times.

Last year Greinke won it with a similar team. Only thing is, he was 16-8. Felix is ~.500

Like I was reading earlier...

Baseball is ultimately a game of winning and losing. At some point, in order to win the award, not only do you have to prevent other team from scoring runs, but you have to keep them from scoring runs relative to how many your team scores, however low that number. - Mike Cardano


Does Felix have better stats? Yes. Does he deserve to win the CY? Not in my humble (and of course somewhat biased) opinion.

 

[rehmus]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":mrnuy03b]I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

I don't buy that at all. You don't feel pressure every time you start simply because your team is in the playoff hunt. Maybe down the stretch you could start to feel it a little bit, but that's a completely irrelevant point.

Felix has been the better pitcher this season.

OK, so you don't buy the whole pressure thing. You've never heard that it's harder playing under the bright lights of NYC. OK.

How about this one? Felix has had a really easy schedule this year. Sure, he's had to play Texas 5 times, but if Texas was in the East they would be 1/2 game away from being in 4th place. Has has faced the Rays 0 times, and the Red Sox 1 time. CC has faced the Rays 4 times, and the Red Sox 4 times. Felix did have to face the Yankees 3 times, but hey... CC had to play against the Phillies!

And then you look at the easy teams, like LAA who are below .500 this year. Felix has had the luxury of playing them 5 times, CC has played them 0 times.

Last year Greinke won it with a similar team. Only thing is, he was 16-8. Felix is ~.500

Like I was reading earlier...

Baseball is ultimately a game of winning and losing. At some point, in order to win the award, not only do you have to prevent other team from scoring runs, but you have to keep them from scoring runs relative to how many your team scores, however low that number. - Mike Cardano


Does Felix have better stats? Yes. Does he deserve to win the CY? Not in my humble (and of course somewhat biased) opinion.[/quote:mrnuy03b]

every single point you make is correct, except it's not enough to compensate for the fact that every other Mariner but Ichiro completely sucks and for the sizable difference between their ERAs.

 

[andyduke86]

How about this one? Felix has had a really easy schedule this year. Sure, he's had to play Texas 5 times, but if Texas was in the East they would be 1/2 game away from being in 4th place. Has has faced the Rays 0 times, and the Red Sox 1 time. CC has faced the Rays 4 times, and the Red Sox 4 times. Felix did have to face the Yankees 3 times, but hey... CC had to play against the Phillies!

And then you look at the easy teams, like LAA who are below .500 this year. Felix has had the luxury of playing them 5 times, CC has played them 0 times.

.

This argument carries no weight. Felix has faced more difficult competition than CC and has performed better. From an ESPN article a week ago (because I don't have the time to complie the numbers right now):

He (Felix) has made a total of 12 starts against five first-place teams this year. He's 6-5 with a 2.71 ERA in those starts. And in eight starts against the Yankees, Twins, Padres and Reds (i.e., everyone but Texas), he's 6-2 with a (ready for this?) 1.37 ERA.

So how does that stack up with, say, CC? Verrry favorably. Sabathia has made only five starts against teams that would make the playoffs if they started today. And he's 3-1 with a 2.62 ERA in those starts against the Rays, Rangers and Phillies.

Want to increase the sample size? Add in the Red Sox, White Sox and Tigers, and he's 6-2 with a 3.86 ERA in 11 starts against "contenders." So has he pitched all that much better against the best teams in baseball? You decide

Since you are apparently such a big Yankee fan, you probably don't need to be reminded how dominant Felix has been against the Yankees this year. 3 starts, 26IP, 1 run allowed, 31K. CC never has to face the best offense in baseball. Felix never gets to face the worst offense in baseball, whereas CC has faced them 3 times.

Their win difference is soley due to the fact that Sabathia gets over 7 runs of support a game, whereas Felix gets less than 3.5.

In Felix's 11 "losses," his team has scored a total of 14 runs.

 

[andyduke86]

Ok so I decided to total up their performances against the 10 highest scoring teams in MLB (Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Reds, Twins, Rangers, Rockies, Phillies, Braves, White Sox):

Felix: 104.1IP, 27ER (2.33 era), 81 hits, 25bb, 99K

CC: 74.1IP, 26ER (3.15 era), 56h, 23bb, 65k

So it looks like Felix has both faced tougher competition and significantly out performed CC in those games.

 

[RL24]

Yes, I think that CC should win it BECAUSE he's a Yankee, if for no other reason.

GO YANKEES!!!

I don't like the Yankees that much, used to be a hater until I realized that I was keeping company with a bunch of tools and trolls.


I know those stats can be skewed in many ways to show many different things, but just forget about who is or isn't going to make the playoffs for a minute, and use logic to explain this statement to me. "Felix has faced more difficult competition than CC." The Red Sox aren't going to make the playoffs, but when they play the Yankees it's a big thing. Both teams turn it up a notch. Ask anybody who knows anything about the rivalry. And then... when Seattle faces Texas... it's just not the same thing. And your stats throw out little things like I was reading the other day, since Showalter took over the Orioles they've had the best record in the AL East. So while they look like an easy team to beat by looking at their record, in reality they are doing things like going into NY and sweeping the Yankees.

I'm 100% confident that if King Felix played in CC's shoes this year; Ace for the Yankees, playing the same teams... his numbers would just like CC's instead of what they look like.

Did Felix excel in those FOUR games combined that he had to play against the Yankees, Rays, and Red Sox? He sure did. But he had just come off several weeks of vacation. He had a really easy schedule.

every single point you make is correct, except it's not enough to compensate for the fact that every other Mariner but Ichiro completely sucks and for the sizable difference between their ERAs.

I know, and Zack Greinke was 16-8 because the Royals have a power packed all star line-up. He got 3.7/game and managed quite nicely. Now THAT'S a feat which is deserving of a Cy Young.

Ok so I decided to total up their performances against the 10 highest scoring teams in MLB (Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Reds, Twins, Rangers, Rockies, Phillies, Braves, White Sox):

Right on... out of curiosity, what do their numbers look like against the 10 BEST teams in the MLB? That is, the 10 teams with the best records?

 

[All The Hype]

So let me get this straight...

You're telling me that CC Sabathia should win the Cy Young Award because he has more wins than Felix Hernandez.

Even though CC has given up more hits, runs, earned runs, homeruns, and walks in fewer innings than Felix.

Even though Felix has more strikeouts, more than twice as many complete games, better WHIP, and an ERA just under three quarters of a run lower than CC's.


As far as I know, starts against the worst team in baseball count just as much for statistics as starts against the best team in baseball. So while you can try to skew the numbers as much as possible to argue for one guy or another, Felix is better in every single pitching statistic other than record.

I'm struggling to understand how CC has been better than Felix in any regard this year.

 

[andyduke86]

Ok so I decided to total up their performances against the 10 highest scoring teams in MLB (Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Reds, Twins, Rangers, Rockies, Phillies, Braves, White Sox):

Right on... out of curiosity, what do their numbers look like against the 10 BEST teams in the MLB? That is, the 10 teams with the best records?

So all of your arguments are thoroughly debunked, yet you still keep turning to this. Team win percentage doesn't have as much relevance with pitcher performance since pitchers only face batters, so the relevant sample is going to be performance against the highest scoring teams, not teams with the best win percentage. Hopefully you don't need me to explain further why this is so. Anyways, 10 best by win percentage:

Yankees, Rays, Twins, Phillies, Braves, Rangers, Reds, Giants, Padres, Red Sox.

So the only difference is that the Rockies and White Sox are out and the Padres and Giants are in. Conveniently, the Rockies and White Sox happen to be 11th and 12th in terms of team win percentage. Neither pitcher has faced the Rockies, or Giants. CC faced the White Sox once, gave up 5 runs in 7 innings. He hasn't faced the Padres. Felix faced the White Sox twice, allowing 2ER in 15 innings. Felix faced the Padres twice and allowed 4er in 15.2 innings. So even using your more flawed reasoning, it doesn't change the equation significantly.

Felix has simply been the best pitcher in the majors this season, period. The question is whether the CY Young award goes to the best pitcher or the best pitcher on a contender. I say it should go to whoever the best pitcher is. Wins aren't worth considering ahead of all other indicators of player performance since "wins" are influenced by how well your team plays behind you (hitting and defense), bullpen support, and luck just as much as they are individual performance. There are many, many better stats out there that are more indicative of individual performance.

Right now, I'd probably vote CC 2nd with Price just behind CC in third. Can't justify putting Buchholz higher than those 3 because he hasn't pitched enough innings.

 

[rymflaherty]

I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

Hate to say it, but think I agree with you. New York is a place where career's flourish or die. Not saying Felix would not be as dominant, but the attention, crowd, media, everything is going to be different in NY. Seen a lot of good players wilt in that environment.

and also not sure why there's so much CC backlash.....all the wins mean nothing, run support, yadda yadda talk......it's not like he has a 4.60 era with the 20 wins. His other numbers are very good as well.
And now I have to go take a shower......feel dirty from praising a Yankee.

 

[Brett Keith]

I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

Hate to say it, but think I agree with you. New York is a place where career's flourish or die. Not saying Felix would not be as dominant, but the attention, crowd, media, everything is going to be different in NY. Seen a lot of good players wilt in that environment.

and also not sure why there's so much CC backlash.....all the wins mean nothing, run support, yadda yadda talk......it's not like he has a 4.60 era with the 20 wins. His other numbers are very good as well.
And now I have to go take a shower......feel dirty from praising a Yankee.

Pretty sure the "backlash" is because so many people seem to think he's a near lock for the Cy, despite the fact that the only reasons people seem to be able to give are his win total and that he's a Yankee. Wins are vastly overrated as a measurement of how good a pitcher is, and a lot of people hate the Yankees.

 

[All The Hype]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":1lpnvvke]I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

Hate to say it, but think I agree with you. New York is a place where career's flourish or die. Not saying Felix would not be as dominant, but the attention, crowd, media, everything is going to be different in NY. Seen a lot of good players wilt in that environment.

and also not sure why there's so much CC backlash.....all the wins mean nothing, run support, yadda yadda talk......it's not like he has a 4.60 era with the 20 wins. His other numbers are very good as well.
And now I have to go take a shower......feel dirty from praising a Yankee.

Pretty sure the "backlash" is because so many people seem to think he's a near lock for the Cy, despite the fact that the only reasons people seem to be able to give are his win total and that he's a Yankee. Wins are vastly overrated as a measurement of how good a pitcher is, and a lot of people hate the Yankees.[/quote:1lpnvvke]

Yeah I feel like I'm looking at this as objectively as possible because I neither like nor dislike the Yankees OR the Mariners...or either individual pitcher for that matter.

An unbiased opinions sees that Felix is the better pitcher (in basically every statistic there is) but CC has a better record.

The Cy Young should go to the best pitcher in the league, not the guy who pitched 2nd best in the league and played for the best team.

 

[Brett Keith]

[quote="Brett Keith":1dgchyw3]

[quote="ALL_THE_HYPE":1dgchyw3]I do not especially like either player, but I'd much rather have Felix Hernandez than CC Sabathia on my team.



Can anyone honestly say the opposite this year? Without bias?

Nobody can say, because nobody honestly knows. Felix has pitched in what, 4 meaningful games this season before his team was out of contention? :lol: It's a lot easier to perform when there's no pressure.

CC thinks Price should win it... and last year he thought Felix should have won it.

Hate to say it, but think I agree with you. New York is a place where career's flourish or die. Not saying Felix would not be as dominant, but the attention, crowd, media, everything is going to be different in NY. Seen a lot of good players wilt in that environment.

and also not sure why there's so much CC backlash.....all the wins mean nothing, run support, yadda yadda talk......it's not like he has a 4.60 era with the 20 wins. His other numbers are very good as well.
And now I have to go take a shower......feel dirty from praising a Yankee.

Pretty sure the "backlash" is because so many people seem to think he's a near lock for the Cy, despite the fact that the only reasons people seem to be able to give are his win total and that he's a Yankee. Wins are vastly overrated as a measurement of how good a pitcher is, and a lot of people hate the Yankees.[/quote:1dgchyw3]

Yeah I feel like I'm looking at this as objectively as possible because I neither like nor dislike the Yankees OR the Mariners...or either individual pitcher for that matter.

An unbiased opinions sees that Felix is the better pitcher (in basically every statistic there is) but CC has a better record.

The Cy Young should go to the best pitcher in the league, not the guy who pitched 2nd best in the league and played for the best team.[/quote:1dgchyw3]

I hate the Yankees and am a Mariners fan, but I stay pretty objective, if I do say so myself. If the situation was reversed, I'd be saying Sabathia should win. What's really annoying, is that there are legit cases to be made for a handful of guys not named Felix, to finish ahead of Sabathia.

 

[RL24]

So all of your arguments are thoroughly debunked, yet you still keep turning to this. Team win percentage doesn't have as much relevance with pitcher performance since pitchers only face batters, so the relevant sample is going to be performance against the highest scoring teams, not teams with the best win percentage. Hopefully you don't need me to explain further why this is so. Anyways, 10 best by win percentage:

I only asked about the 10 best teams because I thought it was strange to choose the 10 highest scoring teams...


You know, coming into this thread I really thought Felix should win it over CC. Now though, after comparing Felix's year to Greinke's year last year, I'm not impressed with Felix at all. Greinke had the same amount of run support, but he was 16-8. Because he was a winner! His team rallied around him and scored the 2 runs he needed, and he only allowed 1 run. He made his team better. When his team only scored 1 run, he allowed 0 runs. Instead of letting his bullpen blow the game for him, he threw a CG. I know there's luck involved with getting the W, you're preaching to the choir there. I also watched 2 terrible Indians teams put up back to back Cy Young winners. How did they do it? For some reason, every 5th game the team turned it up a notch to make their ace look good. Because those pitchers inspired their team to do so! They were winners, that's why they won the Cy Young.

If you are ~.500 on the season it's hard to call you a winner, and even harder to name you the Cy Young winner.




I hope nobody's blood pressure is rising or anything, because I'm having a nice time. I think it's obvious by the way I have to scrape for reasons that my guy should win the Cy that he probably shouldn't, but..... there actually are a few reasons why he should!

 

[Dice-K Collector]

Lol, wins are the most important, your team scores 1 you cant give any runs up. Your team scores 5 you can only give up 4. My philosophy is that if you win, youre the best.

 

[All The Hype]

A pitcher's job is to put his team in position to win. He can't win the game by himself, especially in the American League where he has no influence on the offense.

Isn't the best pitcher (and therefore, the pitcher who should win the Cy Young) the guy who does the best job putting his team in the best position to win? If the team isn't good enough to capitalize and win the game, how can the pitcher be at fault if he does his part?

 

[RL24]

A pitcher's job is to put his team in position to win. He can't win the game by himself, especially in the American League where he has no influence on the offense.

Isn't the best pitcher (and therefore, the pitcher who should win the Cy Young) the guy who does the best job putting his team in the best position to win? If the team isn't good enough to capitalize and win the game, how can the pitcher be at fault if he does his part?

That's the whole point I was trying to make. If your team only scores 1 run, and you allow the other team to score 2 runs, you have not put your team in a position to win.

--

It's kinda like chess. If you're playing a novice, you can fiddle around and make all kinds of mistakes and still come out ahead. If you're playing somebody who's better than you, you don't have room for the slightest error.

You can say "well, I made my moves in an average of 20 seconds while you took 45 seconds per move on average"... but who cares? You lost!

You can say "My pawn efficiency ratio (PER) was 3.2 while yours was only 2.8" but in the end... you still lost.

Stats are good and fine, but at the end of the day... you're going to have to win, to be considered a *winner*.

:lol:


Alright I'll give it up, I'm even cracking myself up. Don't go Google the chess stat (PER) because it came right out of my imagination. I thought adding the (PER) sure made it look official though, huh?


But if anybody is still into the whole argument, I'm dying to know why Greinke was able to go 16-8 with 3.7 runs per game, while Felix is 12-11 with just a shade less run support.... and doesn't that make you Felix supporters wonder if your guy is really worthy of the Cy? I mean, some or all of my arguments must have put at least a sliver of doubt in your minds... I would think, anyway.

 

[All The Hype]

One reason for the quality start stat is because making a quality start (3 ER or fewer in 6+IP) at the very least gives your team a chance to win.