"The Willie Mays HOF"

[Guest]

[quote="P_Manning 18":3r4zc7bf]

[quote="Chris Levy":3r4zc7bf]

[quote="Chris Levy":3r4zc7bf]
Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

what, no love for Frank Thomas

Frank Thomas doesn't get into my HOF. Never had a single MVP-type season.

93 and 94 don't count? look up Mantle's stats and then look up Thomas's.

Keep in mind that the 1994 season was the strike shortened season.

113 games 106 runs 38 HRs 101 RBIs .353 avg .729 slg% 1.217 OPS and 109 walks.... toss in another 50 games on top of that and if that isnt a MVP type season I dont know what is.

Thomas is a clear cut HOF'er[/quote:3r4zc7bf]

The 1994 Thomas season is over-rated. That only equates to a WAR of 6.4 and is only his 5th best statistical season. In fact, Thomas' 1994 season was not even the best in the American League ... Kenny Lofton's was.[/quote:3r4zc7bf]
WAR can't be the only thing used to decide. Thomas destroyed Lofton in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, OPS. They were even in AVG, and R. Lofton only had the (large) edge with SB. Taking that in to mind you absolutely can't take Lofton over Thomas. Also, while a 6.4 WAR is only his 6th highest, without the strike WAR would have been higher.[/quote:3r4zc7bf]

What we grew up believing was important in terms of statistics was wrong. We all have to get out the calculator and MS Excel and re-educate ourselves on what's actually important when rating a player if we want to stay relevant.

Statistics are a wonderful resource and over the past decade we've learned more than we have in the past century thanks to Bill James and others.

I'm perfectly content blindly following WAR off a cliff. It is by far the best rating yet developed.

We need to forget things like All-Star appearances, Gold Gloves, 500 HRs, 300 Wins, 3,000 hits, 3,000 strikeouts, etc. and start looking at things like 162 game average WAR.

 

[P_Manning 18]

[quote="P_Manning 18":grjwx0uc][quote="Chris Levy":grjwx0uc]Here are the guy's I'd leave in.

Pitchers
Johnson, Walter
Alexander, Grover
Gibson, Bob
Mathewson, Christy
Grove, Lefty
Walsh, Ed
Koufax, Sandy
Young, Cy
Perry, Gaylord
Seaver, Tom
Marichal, Juan
Feller, Bob
Carlton, Steve
Roberts, Robin

1st Base
Gehrig, Lou
Foxx, Jimmie
Brouthers, Dan

2nd Base
Hornsby, Rogers
Collins, Eddie
Morgan, Joe
Lajoie, Nap
Robinson, Jackie
Gehringer, Charlie

3rd Base
Schmidt, Mike
Boggs, Wade
Brett, George
Mathews, Eddie
Baker, Frank

Shortstop
Wagner, Honus
Banks, Ernie
Ripken, Cal
Jennings, Hugh
Vaughan, Arky

Outfield
Ruth, Babe
Mantle, Mickey
Cobb, Ty
Williams, Ted
Mays, Willie
Speaker, Tris
Musial, Stan
Aaron, Hank
Henderson, Rickey
Yastrzemski, Carl
DiMaggio, Joe
Ott, Mel
Delahanty, Ed

Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

Not a single catcher in the history of baseball was Hall worthy??[/quote:grjwx0uc]

That is correct.[/quote:grjwx0uc]

Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella are all not worthy of being in?

 

[Guest]

[quote="Chris Levy":v9yk60vf][quote="P_Manning 18":v9yk60vf][quote="Chris Levy":v9yk60vf]Here are the guy's I'd leave in.

Pitchers
Johnson, Walter
Alexander, Grover
Gibson, Bob
Mathewson, Christy
Grove, Lefty
Walsh, Ed
Koufax, Sandy
Young, Cy
Perry, Gaylord
Seaver, Tom
Marichal, Juan
Feller, Bob
Carlton, Steve
Roberts, Robin

1st Base
Gehrig, Lou
Foxx, Jimmie
Brouthers, Dan

2nd Base
Hornsby, Rogers
Collins, Eddie
Morgan, Joe
Lajoie, Nap
Robinson, Jackie
Gehringer, Charlie

3rd Base
Schmidt, Mike
Boggs, Wade
Brett, George
Mathews, Eddie
Baker, Frank

Shortstop
Wagner, Honus
Banks, Ernie
Ripken, Cal
Jennings, Hugh
Vaughan, Arky

Outfield
Ruth, Babe
Mantle, Mickey
Cobb, Ty
Williams, Ted
Mays, Willie
Speaker, Tris
Musial, Stan
Aaron, Hank
Henderson, Rickey
Yastrzemski, Carl
DiMaggio, Joe
Ott, Mel
Delahanty, Ed

Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

Not a single catcher in the history of baseball was Hall worthy??[/quote:v9yk60vf]

That is correct.[/quote:v9yk60vf]

Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra and Roy Campanella are all not worthy of being in?[/quote:v9yk60vf]

By my standards? No. Bench came the closest, but didn't quite make it.

 

[minors4me]

[quote="Chris Levy":11t64tcp]

[quote="Chris Levy":11t64tcp]
Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

what, no love for Frank Thomas

Frank Thomas doesn't get into my HOF. Never had a single MVP-type season.

93 and 94 don't count? look up Mantle's stats and then look up Thomas's.[/quote:11t64tcp]

In 1993 Thomas had a WAR of 6.7 and in '94 he had a WAR of 6.3. A WAR of 8.0 or higher is regarded as an MVP season. Thomas' best season was 1992.

In 1956 Mantle had a WAR of 12.9, 12.5 in '57, 11.9 in '61, 9.8 in '58, and 9.5 in '55. Those are five legitimate MVP seasons, compared to Thomas' none.[/quote:11t64tcp]we are talking about two different things, you are talking about WAR i'm talking about stats. i'm not saying thomas was a better player than mantle all i'm saying is thomas and mantle have similar stats. most everyone would agree mantle belongs in the hall so i don't see why thomas does't deserve to be in as well.

 

[Guest]

[quote="Chris Levy":1sg7unr5]

[quote="Chris Levy":1sg7unr5]
Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

what, no love for Frank Thomas

Frank Thomas doesn't get into my HOF. Never had a single MVP-type season.

93 and 94 don't count? look up Mantle's stats and then look up Thomas's.

In 1993 Thomas had a WAR of 6.7 and in '94 he had a WAR of 6.3. A WAR of 8.0 or higher is regarded as an MVP season. Thomas' best season was 1992.

In 1956 Mantle had a WAR of 12.9, 12.5 in '57, 11.9 in '61, 9.8 in '58, and 9.5 in '55. Those are five legitimate MVP seasons, compared to Thomas' none.[/quote:1sg7unr5]we are talking about two different things, you are talking about WAR i'm talking about stats. i'm not saying thomas was a better player than mantle all i'm saying is thomas and mantle have similar stats. most everyone would agree mantle belongs in the hall so i don't see why thomas does't deserve to be in as well.[/quote:1sg7unr5]

The great thing is you don't have to argue about stats anymore. You don't have to debate the virtues of a great slugger vs. a clutch hitter anymore. You can skip it all and go right to WAR and know an instant who is better than whom.

 

[17ROCKIES12]

[quote="Chris Levy":yc6xldb5][quote="P_Manning 18":yc6xldb5]

[quote="Chris Levy":yc6xldb5]

[quote="Chris Levy":yc6xldb5]
Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

what, no love for Frank Thomas

Frank Thomas doesn't get into my HOF. Never had a single MVP-type season.

93 and 94 don't count? look up Mantle's stats and then look up Thomas's.

Keep in mind that the 1994 season was the strike shortened season.

113 games 106 runs 38 HRs 101 RBIs .353 avg .729 slg% 1.217 OPS and 109 walks.... toss in another 50 games on top of that and if that isnt a MVP type season I dont know what is.

Thomas is a clear cut HOF'er[/quote:yc6xldb5]

The 1994 Thomas season is over-rated. That only equates to a WAR of 6.4 and is only his 5th best statistical season. In fact, Thomas' 1994 season was not even the best in the American League ... Kenny Lofton's was.[/quote:yc6xldb5]
WAR can't be the only thing used to decide. Thomas destroyed Lofton in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, OPS. They were even in AVG, and R. Lofton only had the (large) edge with SB. Taking that in to mind you absolutely can't take Lofton over Thomas. Also, while a 6.4 WAR is only his 6th highest, without the strike WAR would have been higher.[/quote:yc6xldb5]

What we grew up believing was important in terms of statistics was wrong. We all have to get out the calculator and MS Excel and re-educate ourselves on what's actually important when rating a player if we want to stay relevant.

Statistics are a wonderful resource and over the past decade we've learned more than we have in the past century thanks to Bill James and others.

I'm perfectly content blindly following WAR off a cliff. It is by far the best rating yet developed.

We need to forget things like All-Star appearances, Gold Gloves, 500 HRs, 300 Wins, 3,000 hits, 3,000 strikeouts, etc. and start looking at things like 162 game average WAR.[/quote:yc6xldb5]

So Barry Bonds should have won the 1998 NL MVP? Jackie Robinson and Josh Gibson aren't HOFers? Making the playoffs means nothing when it comes to MVP awards?

I see a great correlation between WAR and worth when it comes to decisions organizations and managers make, however there is much less correlation between war and fame.

 

[Guest]

[quote="Chris Levy":3rhfpr0n][quote="P_Manning 18":3rhfpr0n]

[quote="Chris Levy":3rhfpr0n]

[quote="Chris Levy":3rhfpr0n]
Based purley on statistics, I would ADD: OF Barry Bonds, 1B Albert Pujols, SS Alex Rodriguez, P Roger Clemens, OF Ken Griffey, P Pedro Martinez, P Randy Johnson, and OF Shoeless Joe Jackson

what, no love for Frank Thomas

Frank Thomas doesn't get into my HOF. Never had a single MVP-type season.

93 and 94 don't count? look up Mantle's stats and then look up Thomas's.

Keep in mind that the 1994 season was the strike shortened season.

113 games 106 runs 38 HRs 101 RBIs .353 avg .729 slg% 1.217 OPS and 109 walks.... toss in another 50 games on top of that and if that isnt a MVP type season I dont know what is.

Thomas is a clear cut HOF'er

The 1994 Thomas season is over-rated. That only equates to a WAR of 6.4 and is only his 5th best statistical season. In fact, Thomas' 1994 season was not even the best in the American League ... Kenny Lofton's was.[/quote:3rhfpr0n]
WAR can't be the only thing used to decide. Thomas destroyed Lofton in HR, RBI, OBP, SLG, OPS. They were even in AVG, and R. Lofton only had the (large) edge with SB. Taking that in to mind you absolutely can't take Lofton over Thomas. Also, while a 6.4 WAR is only his 6th highest, without the strike WAR would have been higher.[/quote:3rhfpr0n]

What we grew up believing was important in terms of statistics was wrong. We all have to get out the calculator and MS Excel and re-educate ourselves on what's actually important when rating a player if we want to stay relevant.

Statistics are a wonderful resource and over the past decade we've learned more than we have in the past century thanks to Bill James and others.

I'm perfectly content blindly following WAR off a cliff. It is by far the best rating yet developed.

We need to forget things like All-Star appearances, Gold Gloves, 500 HRs, 300 Wins, 3,000 hits, 3,000 strikeouts, etc. and start looking at things like 162 game average WAR.[/quote:3rhfpr0n]

So Barry Bonds should have won the 1998 NL MVP? Jackie Robinson and Josh Gibson aren't HOFers? Making the playoffs means nothing when it comes to MVP awards?

I see a great correlation between WAR and worth when it comes to decisions organizations and managers make, however there is much less correlation between war and fame.[/quote:3rhfpr0n]

1. Yes. Barry Bonds should have won the 1998 NL MVP.
2. Yes. Jackie Robinson should be in the HOF. Josh Gibson should be included (with others) in a ***** League exhibit, but since their statistics are incomplete and were largely exagerated as part of barnstorming promotions of the time their merits cannot be quantified.
3. No. Because baseball is a team sport it is unfair to enhance (or devalue) a player's performance based on the team's performance and reaching the post-season. Also, because the post-season format has changed throughout the years it is not consistent and cannot be used to compare players.

 

[17ROCKIES12]

The point of baseball is score, help others score, and put yourself in a position to score. Using this data, is there honestly any way to explain that Bonds is more valuable than the other two?


It doesn't make sense to me to blindly follow WAR. I like to think of it as the most important stat, followed by OPS, the triple crown stats, then AS, WS MVP, GG, SS, etc. (for hitters).

 

[Guest]

The point of baseball is score, help others score, and put yourself in a position to score. Using this data, is there honestly any way to explain that Bonds is more valuable than the other two?


It doesn't make sense to me to blindly follow WAR. I like to think of it as the most important stat, followed by OPS, the triple crown stats, then AS, WS MVP, GG, SS, etc. (for hitters).

WAR is not a "stat" as we have come to understand them. It is a cumulative translation of the statistics into a single, easy to sort value.

Therefore, you don't have to look at any stats.

It ends the argument and the debate. You just look at it (and it alone) and say "Oh. Okay." and move on. It's why I love it so.

 

[17ROCKIES12]

The point of baseball is score, help others score, and put yourself in a position to score. Using this data, is there honestly any way to explain that Bonds is more valuable than the other two?


It doesn't make sense to me to blindly follow WAR. I like to think of it as the most important stat, followed by OPS, the triple crown stats, then AS, WS MVP, GG, SS, etc. (for hitters).

WAR is not a "stat" as we have come to understand them. It is a cumulative translation of the statistics into a single, easy to sort value.

Therefore, you don't have to look at any stats.

It ends the argument and the debate. You just look at it (and it alone) and say "Oh. Okay." and move on. It's why I love it so.

Do you have a link that shows how it's calculated? It's no fun to see one thing (in stats), but be told another (in WAR).

 

[Guest]

The point of baseball is score, help others score, and put yourself in a position to score. Using this data, is there honestly any way to explain that Bonds is more valuable than the other two?


It doesn't make sense to me to blindly follow WAR. I like to think of it as the most important stat, followed by OPS, the triple crown stats, then AS, WS MVP, GG, SS, etc. (for hitters).

WAR is not a "stat" as we have come to understand them. It is a cumulative translation of the statistics into a single, easy to sort value.

Therefore, you don't have to look at any stats.

It ends the argument and the debate. You just look at it (and it alone) and say "Oh. Okay." and move on. It's why I love it so.

Do you have a link that shows how it's calculated? It's no fun to see one thing (in stats), but be told another (in WAR).

It's not easy. There's not something out there where you can just plug in random numbers and *poof* you're given a WAR if that's what you're asking. You have to remember, it also factors in defense.

This is as good a place to start as any.
http://saberlibrary.com/misc/war/

 

[James52411]

WAR takes into account defensive metrics which most people concede are highly valuable and far from being perfected, and uses assumptions on the position and replacement player variables. The devil is in the adjustments, which is why it is unwise to look at it alone when evaluating players.

 

[Guest]

WAR takes into account defensive metrics which most people concede are highly valuable and far from being perfected, and uses assumptions on the position and replacement player variables. The devil is in the adjustments, which is why it is unwise to look at it alone when evaluating players.

It's getting there. Epsecially with UZR for the past decade.

But it got Blyleven into the HOF, King Felix a Cy Young, and most importantly? The guy behind it a job with an undisclosed MLB team.

 

[P_Manning 18]

Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

 

[Guest]

Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

If only it were that simple. Spend some time over on http://www.fangraphs.com/ It's a great resource for baseball's new math.

 

[P_Manning 18]

[quote="P_Manning 18":sgnrn6aj]Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

If only it were that simple. Spend some time over on http://www.fangraphs.com/ It's a great resource for baseball's new math.[/quote:sgnrn6aj]


That just tells me that Andres Torres means as much to his team that Carlos Gonzalez meant to his.... AND...Torres means more to the Giants than Adrian Gonzalez and Alex Rodriguez do to their respective teams. :?

 

[Guest]

[quote="Chris Levy":tsv4w797][quote="P_Manning 18":tsv4w797]Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

If only it were that simple. Spend some time over on http://www.fangraphs.com/ It's a great resource for baseball's new math.[/quote:tsv4w797]


That just tells me that Andres Torres means as much to his team that Carlos Gonzalez meant to his.... AND...Torres means more to the Giants than Adrian Gonzalez and Alex Rodriguez do to their respective teams. :?[/quote:tsv4w797]

Yep. Now you're beginning to understand. Keep reading. I have no doubt that you'll get it in time.

 

[P_Manning 18]

[quote="P_Manning 18":36vn48fx][quote="Chris Levy":36vn48fx][quote="P_Manning 18":36vn48fx]Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

If only it were that simple. Spend some time over on http://www.fangraphs.com/ It's a great resource for baseball's new math.[/quote:36vn48fx]


That just tells me that Andres Torres means as much to his team that Carlos Gonzalez meant to his.... AND...Torres means more to the Giants than Adrian Gonzalez and Alex Rodriguez do to their respective teams. :?[/quote:36vn48fx]

Yep. Now you're beginning to understand. Keep reading. I have no doubt that you'll get it in time.[/quote:36vn48fx]

That makes my head hurt.

 

[Guest]

[quote="Chris Levy":18oi50m8][quote="P_Manning 18":18oi50m8][quote="Chris Levy":18oi50m8][quote="P_Manning 18":18oi50m8]Im confused.

This value is expressed in a wins format, so we could say that player x is worth 6.3 wins to their team while player y is only worth 3.5 wins.

Context:
A league average player at a position will normally have a WAR of 2. Here are the WAR leaders and trailers from 2009, with some guys in the middle thrown in for good luck:
WAR
Zack Grienke 9.4
Ben Zobrist 8.6
Albert Pujols 8.5
Ichiro 5.0
Brian McCann 4.2
Johnny Damon 3.1
B.J. Upton 2.5
Adam Jones 2.0
Jeff Francoeur 0.1
Alfonso Soriano -0.7
Yuniesky Betancourt -2.2

Notice the bolded blue part. Alfonso Soriano has a -0.7..... but I found 2 youtube videos from 2009 of Soriano having walkoff RBIs... 1 being a grand slam. So how did he have a -0.7 when he won atleast 2 games himself??

If only it were that simple. Spend some time over on http://www.fangraphs.com/ It's a great resource for baseball's new math.[/quote:18oi50m8]


That just tells me that Andres Torres means as much to his team that Carlos Gonzalez meant to his.... AND...Torres means more to the Giants than Adrian Gonzalez and Alex Rodriguez do to their respective teams. :?[/quote:18oi50m8]

Yep. Now you're beginning to understand. Keep reading. I have no doubt that you'll get it in time.[/quote:18oi50m8]

That makes my head hurt.[/quote:18oi50m8]

You need to go Dagobah-style and unlearn what you've learned. Throw out subjective things with bias votes like AS votes, GGs, MVPs, SSs, etc. and focus on quantitative data analysis. It's changing sports and letting us evaluate the history of the game like never before.