What's an autograph really worth?

[Krom]

I agree. But what about an autograph that nobody can get for the price the buyer offers? You get a Joe Montana auto on a mini helmet at a show, all said and done it ends up costing you maybe $150 on a good day. Are people really that willing to take that big of a loss on a regular basis?

Take Cal Ripken Jr. being at the National. It's what...$159 for his auto on a ball? You want a HOF inscription, it's $69. That's a total of $228 and that's not counting the cost of attending the show, or the ball or the authentication. Yet balls aren't selling for much more than $140ish on ebay with the same credentials. That's a hell of a price difference.

You never want to pay retail on an autograph you plan to make $ on.

 

[Zambrano38]

If I'm getting something signed at a show, I am willing to pay more to get a unique item signed that I can't find online. I can understand wanting to meet a player, but it's not really worth it to me to pay that much more to get something like a baseball signed in person.

 

[predatorkj]

You never want to pay retail on an autograph you plan to make $ on.

I totally understand that. My point in a nutshell was even at dealer price perks, it's hard to see people making money on certain athletes. Hence why I brought up a few names off the top of my head. Say you were a dealer set up at Tristar getting stuff signed by one of these big names. Even with a discount, you might not get anywhere close to your money back if eBay is to be believed on these big name guys. Hence the question, who's buying these at a price where dealers make money. If the only real reason people are paying outrageous prices are for little projects or meeting the athlete, the guy getting stuff done in the back can't provide that by having generic stuff signed.

 

[bobthewondercat77]

- people pay big $ for their 3 seconds with Famous Athlete and to visually verify authenticity. No less logical than wanting someone's autograph to begin with.

- market is littered with fakes, including authenticated ones. Cost little to produce and can be sold cheaply.

- low cost of fakes and skepticism in the marketplace drive down prices of authentic autos.

- expensive signers are Much cheaper wholesale. Hobby business folk book them at $X per auto knowing they can sell on eBay at $X+5 to be the cheapest on eBay. Larger wholesale discounts for larger signings. Drives down prices and floods market, further driving down prices.

- everyone signs for free sometimes, some do it a lot (Ripken for example). Sellers of items obtained free have no floor to their price. Drives down prices of all items.

- until a player dies / stops signing entirely, the available marketplace of his auto will always be increasing. Drives prices down. If a living signer is particularly hard to get, and their items become expensive (ie Koufax), someone will find a way to make money off that scarcity (Topps signs Koufax), increasing supply and driving prices down.

Many, many forces driving prices down. Paying for an auto at the National, etc is the very peak of the marketplace - the most middlemen and the highest profit for the middlemen and the athlete.

Moral of the story is, collect for fun, not for profit

Do I compete on the tl;dr category???

 

[Ty Hope]

Sometimes IP auto signings also come with photo-ops. That would add quite a bit of value.

 

[predatorkj]

Sometimes IP auto signings also come with photo-ops. That would add quite a bit of value.

Yeah they were charging for those at Tristar but it's seperate from the auto line. It has it's own line and it's own ticket you have to buy.

 

[jwc9p]

An off-shoot of your article, I find it ridiculous how much these shows even charge for the autograph itself. I understand that some people have the money for it, but most of the prices are just outrageous.

I've been an autograph collector nearly my entire life, and I have always refused to pay those show prices. Mainly because I don't think they are worth what you have to pay to get to the show, wait in an hour long line, pay for the piece, and then pay for the autograph, but also because I enjoy the thrill of the chase more than the autograph. Getting an IP at a stadium where I didn't have to pay for it would always be worth a lot more to me than getting one at a show.

I don't think this is really what you are asking about; just wanted to offer my .02.

 

[predatorkj]

An off-shoot of your article, I find it ridiculous how much these shows even charge for the autograph itself. I understand that some people have the money for it, but most of the prices are just outrageous.

I've been an autograph collector nearly my entire life, and I have always refused to pay those show prices. Mainly because I don't think they are worth what you have to pay to get to the show, wait in an hour long line, pay for the piece, and then pay for the autograph, but also because I enjoy the thrill of the chase more than the autograph. Getting an IP at a stadium where I didn't have to pay for it would always be worth a lot more to me than getting one at a show.

I don't think this is really what you are asking about; just wanted to offer my .02.

Considering that I've gotten some big names from the three major sports and UFC, I agree. In fact that's what's funny about UFC, I've gotten Rampage, Matt Hughes, Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, Chuck Lidell, Forrest Griffin, Jon Jones, and Cain Velazquez all for free. And on multiples. Yet I'm sure they'd be costly at a show. That's a hell of a lot harder to do with any other sport, especially considering Houston isn't the place you think of when you think UFC. But even all the texans and Astros and even the Rockets players have been free. And every now and then we will hit up Dallas and get people like Deion Sanders or Michael Irvin. Adrian Peterson and a slew of others. And when the Super Bowl comes to town, I'll be there scooping up autos out of control. I'd prefer to do this because you can really make memories, especially if you and friends go. It's always fun. Way more fun than paying a fortune at a show. And even cheaper too. Shows are either for people with no patience or money. I usually end up having a lot of patience and no money half the time so I do what I can.

 

[craftysouthpaw]

An off-shoot of your article, I find it ridiculous how much these shows even charge for the autograph itself. I understand that some people have the money for it, but most of the prices are just outrageous.

I've been an autograph collector nearly my entire life, and I have always refused to pay those show prices. Mainly because I don't think they are worth what you have to pay to get to the show, wait in an hour long line, pay for the piece, and then pay for the autograph, but also because I enjoy the thrill of the chase more than the autograph. Getting an IP at a stadium where I didn't have to pay for it would always be worth a lot more to me than getting one at a show.

I don't think this is really what you are asking about; just wanted to offer my .02.

Getting IP is definitely much more rewarding for me but I see both sides of the coin. Getting it at a show pretty much guarentees a good autograph in the color and location you want. On premium items, that can be worth the cost to me. Some guys have such a drastic difference between their show graph and their IP graph, I won't even bother IP except on cards. Think Randy Johnson. Now, I won't pay the huge show cost on someone like Chipper whose IP graph is almost the same as his show graph, but for someone like Johnson I would.

And these shows charge these outrageous prices because people pay - at least at the big shows. I'm always amazed how many people line up to pay $400 for Mays but it keeps happening so those prices aren't going anywhere. The area where this has hurt is the smaller show promoters and shops like Gilmore. And by logical extension, the folks that live in areas where the big shows don't come anymore. Since athletes can get those prices at Chantilly or the National, they expect that fee everywhere else, and that just won't work for the middlemen. Someone in Atlanta booking Mays would lose their shirts because folks here won't pay that.

And I'll echo the sentiment that for the most part, people getting autographs at shows couldn't care less about the ROI. I can't imagine anyone there is doing so with profit in mind - at least not in the short to medium term. The only logical perspective I could see is folks viewing as a long term investment to pass down to their kids many years down the road (not saying I agree with it, but it at least has the potential to hold value as opposed to pissing it away on other things).

I think the only way to make money in the autograph game is via IP graphing. And only then if it is basically all you do. All sports, all venues, anything goes all the time. Which is part of the reason why it gets a black eye - well deserved in many cases IMO. Between gas, tickets, and most of all the time involved, it seems like a tough venture. But some guys make it work - it just typically takes actions and attitudes that don't sit well with me.

Autographs have became the main focus of my collecting the past few years - still do wax, just not as much. I enjoy both IP and getting at shows but I almost never sell so the profit component isn't really a factor for me.

 

[muskiesfan]

It's a great question and tough to answer. I send TTM, graph IP, and go to signings. I do paid signings the least because they are pricey. In the end, no matter the price, someone is willing to pay it.

When I go to a signing, paid or not, I always shake hands with the signer, generally ask them a question or two, and will try to get a picture (depends on if we're being cattle prodded through the line or not). To me, whether I paid or if it was free, the experience is priceless. I don't sell my autographs. I do plan on getting them authenticated so that it would be easier for my wife to sell them after I pass, but I'm not getting rid of them.

The autographs represent a moment in time. When looking at them or showing them off, I have a memory and a story to tell. That's the huge part for me. Sometimes you get some amazing memories that will last a lifetime.

At RedsFest 2011, I was hanging out and talking with Todd Benzinger. He's an incredibly nice guy. We were talking baseball and the 1990 World Series when I asked if he would mind taking a picture with me. He agreed, but before my wife could take the picture, he said, "put this on". It was his 1990 World Series ring! He just offered to let me wear it for the pic. That right there created a memory I will have forever. He didn't have to do that, but that single, simple gesture created an amazing moment for a fan. That was priceless. My RedsFest pass was free because I am a Reds Hall of Fame member, but the passes cost $35 for the 2 day event. That few minutes with Todd Benzinger would have been worth a lot more than $35 to me.

I've talked about it several times, so I won't do it again, but meeting Brandon Phillips last year was incredible as well. Luckily for me, both of those were free for me (membership and twitter), but they created unbelievable moments. For some, paying $160 to say Hi to Cal Ripken, Jr. and get his autograph is well worth it. The only time I think the cost of the signing would be too much is if you plan on selling the items.

I went off on a tangent and I apologize, but I said it was a tough question to answer. :lol:

 

[predatorkj]

Good points all. Just... I guess my main idea was that I can't even see dealers getting a low enough buy in price to allow selling on some of these big name guys. Even at a good discount. Also of note, as a collector and a non-seller, I know I have overpaid on items. But I think what gets me about the show prices is the sheer amount you have to over pay. I'll never part with my bagwell collection but if I had to pay $100 for every card and they were only worth $10 or $20 a piece, I'd rethink what I was doing. Yet these shows get packed and remain that way.

 

[Juan Gris]

Supply and demand at a card show: little supply, high demand = more $
Supply and demand in the general marketplace: much higher supply, high demand (but less so as compared to % at a card show) = less $

The high demand (and price) at a card show comes from
1) chance of personal contact with signer
2) immediate gratification
3) buyers unfamiliar with marketplace prices for signatures
4) buyers seeking custom signatures
5) masochists

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

Good points all. Just... I guess my main idea was that I can't even see dealers getting a low enough buy in price to allow selling on some of these big name guys. Even at a good discount. Also of note, as a collector and a non-seller, I know I have overpaid on items. But I think what gets me about the show prices is the sheer amount you have to over pay. I'll never part with my bagwell collection but if I had to pay $100 for every card and they were only worth $10 or $20 a piece, I'd rethink what I was doing. Yet these shows get packed and remain that way.

I agree it's hard to overlook this. There always seems to be an (excessive??) premium on instant gratification in our hobby and in others. It's amazing how much better off financially one is with just a little patience... some know this and shop smart, others have no clue, and some don't seem to care.

It's interesting to see how honestly things are marketed in the hobby.