Congratulations Mr Beltre

[WCTYSON]

18 times all star compared to 4 time all star
16 gold gloves compared to 4 gold gloves
Brooks won an AL MVP and 2 WS titles
Oh, and he has 200 more hits...

You are the one that brought up Robinson. Is the criteria for the HOF, you have to be better than the all-time most valuable at that position? I know your reading comprehension is still a work in progress but I have already made this perfectly clear. It is not just Beltre's offensive numbers that make him a HOF'er though they are impressive, it is that he has put up those numbers while also being one of the most defensively valuable 3rd baseman all-time. I am not going to get into all the awards to compare players, as it just gets goofy with subjectivity and with the likes of WS ring tallies. If you want to be objective about the numbers, do so considering the combination of his offensive and defensive numbers. These magical offensive milestones do not have to be meet, you do not have to be a fan favorite, pass the smelly eyeball test or scream. You just have to produce and Beltre has, offensively and defensively.

 

[athletics07]

re: the gold glove count. Fairly or unfairly, I don't think that can discredit defensive accomplishment. Aside from the award generally being a farce. Eric Chavez was at his peak for a run there as Beltre's peer competition. He can't control that.

 

[homerun28aa]

You are the one that brought up Robinson. Is the criteria for the HOF, you have to be better than the all-time most valuable at that position? I know your reading comprehension is still a work in progress but I have already made this perfectly clear. It is not just Beltre's offensive numbers that make him a HOF'er though they are impressive, it is that he has put up those numbers while also being one of the most defensively valuable 3rd baseman all-time. I am not going to get into all the awards to compare players, as it just gets goofy with subjectivity and with the likes of WS ring tallies. If you want to be objective about the numbers, do so considering the combination of his offensive and defensive numbers. These magical offensive milestones do not have to be meet, you do not have to be a fan favorite, pass the smelly eyeball test or scream. You just have to produce and Beltre has, offensively and defensively.

The "you just have to produce and Beltre has" argument is laughable. Almost every single HOFer with very few exceptions has a memorable statistic that asserts that that person is qualified for the HOF. If Beltre gets to 3,000 hits and 450 HR's or something along those lines he'll be selected towards the end of his candidacy. He bats .284 career with 2,600 hits and 400 HR's over 18 seasons where he's had no postseason presence (despite your beliefs about his production) and only four ASG appearances. He has no single statistic at this point that jumps out as HOF worthy or even close, he's one of the better fielding 3B but nothing like the all-time greats. The HOF is reserved for the all-time greats, Beltre in no aspect of his career was an all-time great or even in that remote discussion.

Maybe phillyfan can give you his schpiel here about the rules of engagement on this board as compared to the general forum.

An ASG appearance one out of every 4.5 seasons he's been in the league tells you what you need to know about his production/domination in the era he was in.

 

[WCTYSON]

Baseball is run creation and prevention. Beltre is not the all-time best at that position in either but he is easily one of the all-time best when you factor both.

Maybe phillyfan can give you his schpiel here about the rules of engagement on this board as compared to the general forum.

An ASG appearance one out of every 4.5 seasons he's been in the league tells you what you need to know about his production/domination in the era he was in.

You just sound silly to me.

 

[homerun28aa]

You just sound silly to me.

Ahem, the rules of engagement. A little bit of a pot-kettle situation going on with the reading comprehension..

 

[Austin]

The HOF is reserved for the all-time greats, Beltre in no aspect of his career was an all-time great or even in that remote discussion.

Then let's kick out Biggio, Smoltz, Rice, Carter, Dawson, Sutton, Larkin, Santo, Blyleven and about half of the Hall of Fame members, including most players elected by the Veteran's Committee, because they certainly aren't all-time greats according to your criteria.

 

[homerun28aa]

Then let's kick out Biggio, Smoltz, Rice, Carter, Dawson, Sutton, Larkin, Santo, Blyleven and about half of the Hall of Fame members, including most players elected by the Veteran's Committee, because they certainly aren't all-time greats according to your criteria.

Which ones do you have issues with specifically? All of the guys above? I could defend a majority of those guys above to you and comparing a pitcher and batter's HOF candidacy is not possible...

 

[tpeichel]

I'm not arguing he's a good defensive third basemen - but if you want to say he gets in the HOF on defense as his primary impetus you have to have a little more than 4 gold gloves IMO 4 gold gloves does not get you into the HOF when you're only a decent hitter.

The combination of offense skills, defensive skills and longetivity at 3B is what makes Beltre a special player. And since when is a .280 hitter with 400 career HR and 2600 hits over 18 years only a decent hitter? Decent hitters don't have 18 year careers already at the age of 36. You have to be special to make it to the bigs at the age of 19 and you need to be special to still be going strong at the age of 36.

 

[Austin]

Which ones do you have issues with specifically? All of the guys above? I could defend a majority of those guys above to you and comparing a pitcher and batter's HOF candidacy is not possible...

I don't have a problem with any of them in the Hall. I'm just sarcastically responding to your post that "The Hall of Fame is for all-time greats."
No one thought players like Biggio and Sutton were Hall of Famers when they were active for most of their careers, until they approached milestones. But they're Hall of Famers now, and deservedly so.

Out of 17,000+ people who have ever played MLB, only 205 or so of them (not including managers, executives, etc.) are HOFers.
I don't think the Hall is watered down at all, and if Beltre reaches 3,000 hits, he's just as worthy as dozens of other stars who made it.

 

[mlbsalltimegreats]

Beltre still has a few years left and will have 3,000 hits and around 450 homers and 1,600-1,700 rbi in less than three years.
You could post the stats of dozens of Hall of Famers several years before their careers are finished and say they don't look like Hall of Famers.

What matters is Beltre is on pace to put up Hall of Fame numbers, ones that are much better than several third basemen in the Hall.
Call him a compiler, but so were tons of Hall of Famers who played 20+ years to reach milestones.
A lot of people argued that Jeter wasn't even a Hall of Famer until a few years ago.

Barring injury, Beltre has a long time before he retires. He led the league in hits just two years, hit .324 last year and is leading the league in at bats this season, meaning he's healthy.

If you went back and read what I posted you would understand. I was more posting towards the people who thought he was a hall of famer right now. I don't and I don't think the voters would either.
Now if he gets to 3000 or 500 (Both of which I don't think he will get) then yea I will call Beltre a Hall of famer. Beltre to me is like Craig Biggio, I did not think he was a hofer until the day he got to3000 hits and it will bold the same with Beltre.
I still hold 3000 hits, 500 Hr, 300 wins as shoo-in's to the hall and like it or not the Voters still hold those milestone numbers and Awards to a higher criteria than maybe your average non voter.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

And how many players have been removed from the HOF in history?.... Yup, that's what I thought.

Out if my response to you using Santo and Kell as your examples , that's what you took away? Did you really feel that I was implying that they should actually be removed? No. It was basically a statement that those guys are very borderline, took forever to get in, received low % votes (def not a close to being elected in w voters) when they were eligible, and if they weren't in the HoF , not to big a stink would be made. Your examples of players who hadn't won an MVP that are in took 19-32 years after their first eligible year to get in. So your examples weren't strong. If you read any of my posts in here , I basically have stated I feel AB needs 1+ of these key numbers 500/1500/3000 to have a shot, and he may get there, but he's def no lock right now IMO.

Ryan

 

[tpeichel]

Out if my response to you using Santo and Kell as your examples , that's what you took away? Did you really feel that I was implying that they should actually be removed? No. It was basically a statement that those guys are very borderline, took forever to get in, received low % votes (def not a close to being elected in w voters) when they were eligible, and if they weren't in the HoF , not to big a stink would be made. Your examples of players who hadn't won an MVP that are in took 19-32 years after their first eligible year to get in. So your examples weren't strong. If you read any of my posts in here , I basically have stated I feel AB needs 1+ of these key numbers 500/1500/3000 to have a shot, and he may get there, but he's def no lock right now IMO.

Ryan

These HOF discussions are some of my favorite threads. I think I first posted about Beltre having a shot at the HOF when he hit 2000 hits at such a young age. Hasn't done anything except keep hitting to make his case.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

These HOF discussions are some of my favorite threads. I think I first posted about Beltre having a shot at the HOF when he hit 2000 hits at such a young age. Hasn't done anything except keep hitting to make his case.

I'm not trying to keep him out , but I think he needs a key number to get in, that's all.

Ryan

 

[homerun28aa]

I don't have a problem with any of them in the Hall. I'm just sarcastically responding to your post that "The Hall of Fame is for all-time greats."
No one thought players like Biggio and Sutton were Hall of Famers when they were active for most of their careers, until they approached milestones. But they're Hall of Famers now, and deservedly so.

Out of 17,000+ people who have ever played MLB, only 205 or so of them (not including managers, executives, etc.) are HOFers.
I don't think the Hall is watered down at all, and if Beltre reaches 3,000 hits, he's just as worthy as dozens of other stars who made it.

You're talking about "what-ifs" - if he reaches 3,000 hits and if he does he'll also undoubtably have at least 450 HR's then yeah I think he'll have a great chance around his 8th year, but if he retired today he would not be a HOFer he'd never be removed from the ballot in his 15 years of eligibility but he wouldn't get in.

 

[WCTYSON]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...n-beltres-under-the-radar-hall-of-fame-career

 

[sportscardtheory]

I always laugh at these discussions. For the life of me I can't understand how some people can't grasp the concept of a player's career not yet being over. It's not about what Beltre has done, it's about what will he have done when his career is over. If he gets to 3,000 hits, which is very likely, he will be voted in. Most likely, like Biggio, he may have to wait a year or two. But he WILL make it. How can anyone dispute that. No eligible player who ever had 3,000 or more hits isn't in the HOF.

 

[homerun28aa]

I always laugh at these discussions. For the life of me I can't understand how some people can't grasp the concept of a player's career not yet being over. It's not about what Beltre has done, it's about what will he have done when his career is over. If he gets to 3,000 hits, which is very likely, he will be voted in. Most likely, like Biggio, he may have to wait a year or two. But he WILL make it. How can anyone dispute that. No eligible player who ever had 3,000 or more hits isn't in the HOF.

If he gets 3,000 hits - he will get in at some point. To say he won't be a first-ballot HOFer like you stated is an obvious understatement. Biggio was a bit more well rounded, he had over 400 career stolen bases and was IMO a bit better defensively but Beltre on the other hand is a better power hitter so they'll be comparable. I don't know why you think this conversation is so laughable because his career isn't over - most people were prefacing their post with if he retires today. He could have two 50 HR seasons for all we know and get to 500 HR's as well, speculating makes this conversation sillier yeah obviously if he gets to 3,000 hits he'll be a HOFer at some point.

 

[sportscardtheory]

If he gets 3,000 hits - he will get in at some point. To say he won't be a first-ballot HOFer like you stated is an obvious understatement. Biggio was a bit more well rounded, he had over 400 career stolen bases and was IMO a bit better defensively but Beltre on the other hand is a better power hitter so they'll be comparable. I don't know why you think this conversation is so laughable because his career isn't over - most people were prefacing their post with if he retires today. He could have two 50 HR seasons for all we know and get to 500 HR's as well, speculating makes this conversation sillier yeah obviously if he gets to 3,000 hits he'll be a HOFer at some point.

If a player's career isn't over, the only way to have a worthwhile discussion about them is to speculate where they will end up. You don't knock the last three years off of Craig Biggio's stats and ask if that's HOF-worthy, do you. I know that is a strawman, but it makes about as much sense as ignoring that a guy's career isn't over and using what he has done as a HOF gauge.

 

[homerun28aa]

If a player's career isn't over, the only way to have a worthwhile discussion about them is to speculate where they will end up. You don't knock the last three years off of Craig Biggio's stats and ask if that's HOF-worthy, do you.

He could play 3 more years and squeak into the HOF, he could play 5 more years of productive baseball and be a shoe-in for HOF, he can get an injury and retire after next season we don't know. Like you said, if he gets to 3,000 hits and continues on a similar HR trajectory he'll get in but that will require another few years of baseball.

 

[RStadlerASU22]

If a player's career isn't over, the only way to have a worthwhile discussion about them is to speculate where they will end up. You don't knock the last three years off of Craig Biggio's stats and ask if that's HOF-worthy, do you. I know that is a strawman, but it makes about as much sense as ignoring that a guy's career isn't over and using what he has done as a HOF gauge.

The thing is we are discussing a guy who is 18 years into the league , not 8. He's being discussed because that long of sample size and a lot of people don't feel he has locked in the Hall, so people are discussing what they feel it may take. There is no guarantee he is getting 3000 hits. No clue when he'll retire etc. it's just a fun discussion more than anything.

Ryan