2011....So who's making the Hall???

[predatorkj]

The lack of Cys and ASGs goes to show that he was never a dominant pitcher. He was an above average pitcher for many years.

Over 22 seasons the only worthwhile catagories he has led was: SHO(3), SO(1), ERA+(1), WHIP(1), and SO/BB(3).

He was a great pitcher for many years, but overall borderline for the HOF. I would not be disappointed to see him make it into the HOF, but considering he has not made it in yet questions why should he make it in now? (It would not surprise me though, because it seems as if this year there are no real strong candidates)

I guess we have different opinions on dominant and what is valuable. Throwing a shutout is about as dominant as you can get(No hitters and perfect games aside.) Blyleven has 60 of them for 9th overall. Everybody else in the top 20 is in the HOF.
As for CY's...
Mark Davis, Jim Lonborg, LaMarr Hoyt, Pat Hentgen and Steve Stone all have won it. Is that going to be the only measurement for HOF?

ASG's...Doug Jones and Cookie Rojas went to 5. Are they more qualified than Blyleven?

I will agree Blyleven is not a slam dunk HOF'er but some people calling him mediocre and just 'pretty good' is carrying it a bit too far.

Well...I don't think people understand what it takes to be that good ,or even decent, for that long. If a ball player, especially a pitcher, can even last that long its a testament to their abilities. Even relief pitchers don't make it that long most of the time. You have to continually be decent to even play every year. Otherwise you get seen as old and washed up and nobody wants you.

Look at his innings. Most people's arm would fall off. Look at his complete games compared to his games started. He finished more than 1/3 of every game he started. Dude's got 3,701 strikeouts. Name me another pitcher with that many who isn't(or won't be) in the HOF. A 3.31 ERA. over 22 seasons? This guy has an excellent body of work. Over 22 freaking years.

 

[FromKoufaxtoEdwin]

The lack of Cys and ASGs goes to show that he was never a dominant pitcher. He was an above average pitcher for many years.

Over 22 seasons the only worthwhile catagories he has led was: SHO(3), SO(1), ERA+(1), WHIP(1), and SO/BB(3).

He was a great pitcher for many years, but overall borderline for the HOF. I would not be disappointed to see him make it into the HOF, but considering he has not made it in yet questions why should he make it in now? (It would not surprise me though, because it seems as if this year there are no real strong candidates)

Or the lack of Cy Youngs and ASGs can be attributed to the thinking that pitcher wins were the be all end all stat when Bert pitched. We know a heck of a lot more now than we did back then, so why would we consider what uninformed sportswriters and fans believed 3 decades ago? Its pretty clear after digesting all of the relevant numbers that Bert is a HOF caliber pitcher and that his numbers stack up extremely favorably to guys considered no-brainer HOFers. There is so much written about Bert that is available for people to read that justifies why he should be in the Hall.

As to who will get in, it will likely just be Alomar and Bert. As to who should eventually make it from this ballot, the list is pretty long. Alomar, Bert, Bagwell (his numbers are incredible, people. He's one of the 5 or 6 best all around 1st baseman of all time), Raines, Trammell, Palmeiro, Walker, and even guys like Fred McGriff (he was hurt by the steroid era, as his numbers were consistent before and during it. If you punish people for suspecting that they used, why not reward a guy who didn't) and Kevin Brown (again, check the important numbers, not just wins) have great cases. And please, Jack Morris doesn't belong anywhere near a HOF ballot. He had a nice career and had one legendary game, but he had a career ERA+ of 105, his postseason numbers, even including his great game, line up with his regular season numbers, and the whole pitching to the score ideal has been blown up countless times. With all of the info we have, anyone that votes in Morris over Bert is insane and should lose their vote.

 

[hofautos]

Just now noticed walker on the list of candidates...

Bagwell, Walker, and Alomar make it this year.

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Not a very strong ballot IMO, a heckuva lot of borderline players.

I say Alomar gets in, because someone has to.

Next year's is REALLY weak, but the big guns roll in in 2012.

 

[hofautos]

Not a very strong ballot IMO, a heckuva lot of borderline players.

I say Alomar gets in, because someone has to.

Next year's is REALLY weak, but the big guns roll in in 2012.

huh? who?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

Not a very strong ballot IMO, a heckuva lot of borderline players.

I say Alomar gets in, because someone has to.

Next year's is REALLY weak, but the big guns roll in in 2012.

huh? who?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml

That's what I was calling next year's, I should have said the big guns were coming in 2013 (2013 for induction, but they will be voted on in 2012).

 

[scotty21690]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml[/url]

That's what I was calling next year's, I should have said the big guns were coming in 2013 (2013 for induction, but they will be voted on in 2012).[/quote:2vyu5zrc]
Piazza, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Schilling, Biggio

Who makes it?

 

[schillingfan]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml[/url]

That's what I was calling next year's, I should have said the big guns were coming in 2013 (2013 for induction, but they will be voted on in 2012).

Piazza, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Schilling

Who makes it?[/quote:3myrmjfm]

Piazza and Schilling hopefully.

 

[AMAZIN HOF COLLECTOR]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml[/url]

That's what I was calling next year's, I should have said the big guns were coming in 2013 (2013 for induction, but they will be voted on in 2012).

Piazza, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Schilling

Who makes it?

Piazza and Schilling hopefully.[/quote:325bcfas]


ditto

 

[scotty21690]

Same.

Will be interesting to see how many votes Bonds/Clemens gets...

 

[bodiaz]

Funny you guys only want Piazza (roider), and Schilling (roider). BUt don't want 2 of the best players in the history of the game!?! If you do not think Schilling and Piazza were using roids, than you are stupid. Hell, Schilling got his ankle shot up with roids and it was talked about on national TV in the playoffs! Noone has a problem with that? He would not have been able to pitch had it not been for those shots! That is an unfair advantage that Bob Gibson or Walter Johnson did not have! Isn't that the whole argument against roids?

 

[schillingfan]

Funny you guys only want Piazza (roider), and Schilling (roider). BUt don't want 2 of the best players in the history of the game!?! If you do not think Schilling and Piazza were using roids, than you are stupid. Hell, Schilling got his ankle shot up with roids and it was talked about on national TV in the playoffs! Noone has a problem with that? He would not have been able to pitch had it not been for those shots! That is an unfair advantage that Bob Gibson or Walter Johnson did not have! Isn't that the whole argument against roids?

::facepalm::

I'm not even going to bother responding to this post because it's so stupid.

 

[A_Pharis]

Bodiaz: Small injections of a steroid to help with pain/recovery of a joint injury is not the same as using it as a performance enhancing drug.

 

[scotty21690]

Funny you guys only want Piazza (roider), and Schilling (roider). BUt don't want 2 of the best players in the history of the game!?! If you do not think Schilling and Piazza were using roids, than you are stupid. Hell, Schilling got his ankle shot up with roids and it was talked about on national TV in the playoffs! Noone has a problem with that? He would not have been able to pitch had it not been for those shots! That is an unfair advantage that Bob Gibson or Walter Johnson did not have! Isn't that the whole argument against roids?

::facepalm::

I'm not even going to bother responding to this post because it's so stupid.

Ha, agreed. I don't even know how to respond :lol:

 

[AMAZIN HOF COLLECTOR]

Funny you guys only want Piazza (roider), and Schilling (roider). BUt don't want 2 of the best players in the history of the game!?! If you do not think Schilling and Piazza were using roids, than you are stupid. Hell, Schilling got his ankle shot up with roids and it was talked about on national TV in the playoffs! Noone has a problem with that? He would not have been able to pitch had it not been for those shots! That is an unfair advantage that Bob Gibson or Walter Johnson did not have! Isn't that the whole argument against roids?

:benson:
::facepalm::

 

[bodiaz]

Don't see what you guys do not get? Schilling had his ankle shot up with a steriod to enhance his performance. If he did not take the shot, he would not have been able to pitch, and Boston does not go to the World Series, much less win it. They enhanced his performance, and it is unfair to Cy Young, and Walter Johnson! Maybe they would have better #s with these advantages. It is also unfair that Lou Gehrig had to ride on a bumpy uncomfotable train from city to city, and Cal Ripken flew on private jets. Unfair advantage to Ripken. Gehrig streak may have been longer with these advantages. Also unfair that health and weight training are so much more advanced. If Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would have had personal trainers like todays athletes, maybe they would have better #s.

My point is steriods were not banned by baseball when these players used. Yes people will say they were prohibited, but there was no penalty, and no drug testing. That means they were allowed! Steriods are just another modern advantage, and greats like Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, and Frank Thomas should not be held out of the hall of fame. Hell, there are multiple HOFers that used roids. There are also murders, theives, alcoholics, rapists, racists, and drug addicts in. People will one day get over it.

 

[A_Pharis]

Don't see what you guys do not get? Schilling had his ankle shot up with a steriod to enhance his performance. If he did not take the shot, he would not have been able to pitch, and Boston does not go to the World Series, much less win it. They enhanced his performance, and it is unfair to Cy Young, and Walter Johnson! Maybe they would have better #s with these advantages. It is also unfair that Lou Gehrig had to ride on a bumpy uncomfotable train from city to city, and Cal Ripken flew on private jets. Unfair advantage to Ripken. Gehrig streak may have been longer with these advantages. Also unfair that health and weight training are so much more advanced. If Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would have had personal trainers like todays athletes, maybe they would have better #s.

My point is steriods were not banned by baseball when these players used. Yes people will say they were prohibited, but there was no penalty, and no drug testing. That means they were allowed! Steriods are just another modern advantage, and greats like Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, and Frank Thomas should not be held out of the hall of fame. Hell, there are multiple HOFers that used roids. There are also murders, theives, alcoholics, rapists, racists, and drug addicts in. People will one day get over it.

Are you drunk?

 

[jeff550]

Don't see what you guys do not get? Schilling had his ankle shot up with a steriod to enhance his performance. If he did not take the shot, he would not have been able to pitch, and Boston does not go to the World Series, much less win it. They enhanced his performance, and it is unfair to Cy Young, and Walter Johnson! Maybe they would have better #s with these advantages. It is also unfair that Lou Gehrig had to ride on a bumpy uncomfotable train from city to city, and Cal Ripken flew on private jets. Unfair advantage to Ripken. Gehrig streak may have been longer with these advantages. Also unfair that health and weight training are so much more advanced. If Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle would have had personal trainers like todays athletes, maybe they would have better #s.

My point is steriods were not banned by baseball when these players used. Yes people will say they were prohibited, but there was no penalty, and no drug testing. That means they were allowed! Steriods are just another modern advantage, and greats like Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, and Frank Thomas should not be held out of the hall of fame. Hell, there are multiple HOFers that used roids. There are also murders, theives, alcoholics, rapists, racists, and drug addicts in. People will one day get over it.

wow, your bonds homerisum might be worse than the randy moss guy

 

[Mighty Bombjack]

I think bodiaz's larger points have merit. Why does Piazza get a pass, simply because he was never called before Congress? Are we taking his word that he never used? Sosa has long denied any PED use, hasn't he? You don't believe him?

Schilling has been vociferously against PED use, but so was Palmeiro before he tested positive.

What standards are we using for wanting to hold players out of the hall?

 

[noaskiecards]

Lenny Harris' .667 career OPS should get him in automatically!